stano

Anyone familiar with this brake. It's a two piece and I can't seem to find out any more info than that on their site. These brakes were the best price that I have found over the StopTech and Brembo's

Thanks!

stano

Found my info

0C5stein

Hi Stan,
The AP 6000s go for about $3600 per axle.
And the 6050s are about $3000 per axle.
I don't have any first hand info on these in particular, and I'm not sure that they are available with both a street pad and a track pad.

Here is some info that I've posted on another thread.

MSI's customers have had excellent experience with Baer's Extreme Plus mono block big brake system (no spacers required to clear stock wheels). We sell them for a tad over $2700 for the front and the same for the rear. They come with a very stiff caliper, the "6S" caliper is stiffer than StopTech's due to the non-removable beams that bridge the open brake pad area of the caliper. They come with Calipers, street pads, brackets bolts and braided brake lines. We have been using PFC 03 and 01 pads for the race track with great success and my customers running the baer/pfc setup are getting longer rotor life and better performance than that of the StopTech/Hawk combo.

The Brembo's are really great, cost a bit more, but their front brake setup that is for track (350mm) doen't have a street pad option and those being offered with street pads (355mm)are not really up to track day/Race use according to brembo race rep.

The PFC big brake system is basically and indy car brake package that will fit inside your stock C6z wheels without spacers. It uses 4 padlets in a super stiff caliper, has awesome performance with the cleanest release, and sells for just under $4000 per axle (less than $8k front & rear). PFC has the "Direct Drive" full floating rotors that are the best on the market.

Baer also has introduced their "Pro Plus" six piston two piece caliper and big brake system for Corvettes. They are priced at just under $1900 for the front and $1900 for the rear, but so far we do not have any track data on these. The design looks to offer much beter performance than the Wilwood set up and similar performacne to the StopTech. The baer rotors seem to outlast both the StopTech and Wilwood.

We offer them all, i believe that Baer offers the best value for a package that fits stock wheels and has both street and track pads available.

loud0g40oz

Am I missing something? You can buy the AP6000 directly from Stillen for $2730.66 right now.


The AP6050 is priced at $2849.76.

Your price for the rear AP6050 looks close to Stillen's normal price, but the front is $750 more. Is there any difference in your kit vs Stillen's?

stano

I was quoted $4775.00 + shipping ( not from Stillen ) for the front and rear.

loud0g40oz

That's considerably less. Would you mind telling me who quoted that price? You can PM if you would like.

Chris_B

Hmm... "Best value" and best price are not necessarily the same thing. To imply that Baer is in the same category as AP Racing (which is what the OP asked about) is quite a stretch. Not that Baer is all bad, but AP Racing is found on a LOT of the top supercars in the world, like McLaren, Lotus, Koenisgegg, Bugatti and Noble to name a few. They are even on my favorite GM vehicle -- the Holden W427, not to mention most teams in F1, NASCAR and whole bunch of other professional race series' around the world. It's not an apples to apples comparison at all.

Each buyer should determine the budget he has and what his needs are, but we shouldn't be led to water down significant differences. I mean, the ZR-1 and the Honda S2000 are both quick little 2-seaters, right? So why would the ZR-1 cost so much more?

0C5stein

Yes you are right, best value and lowest price are two different things. Stillen sells that AP setup for quite a bit less than the MSRP (as would appear to be the case with the company that Stan got his quote from). I guess that I had better do a bit more shopping for lower cost sources before I go a quote AP stuff, because obvously, my supplier isn't offering me any great deals.

If you compair caliper stiffness of the Baer monoblock to the AP6000 and 6050, you will find that the Baer is stiffer. Period.

So based on MSRP vs MSRP, the stiffer Baer caliper for less money is a better value than the AP6000. Based on what you can buy them for makes the value question more difficult to compair. Stiffer Baer monoblock for more money or more flexy AP two piece for less money, in that case "Value is in the eye of the beholder."

Plus you need to realize that just as chevy makes both ZR1s and Cobalts, that the AP6000 isn't as stiff as the AP monoblocks that the race teams and exotics use. It isn't as much money either.

Chris_B

I'm not sure what information you are referring to, but it would be great if you would reference it. I've been around racing calipers for 20 years. Just because it is a "monoblock" does NOT mean it is stiffer. In fact, a well-designed 2-piece caliper is usually stiffer than its comparable monoblock counterpart when tested for spreading, clamshell and torsional deflection. This is due to having big steel bolts holding the halves together. Since steel is 3x stiffer than just aluminum, a monoblock caliper is at an immediate deficit from the get-go.

Monoblocks were initially introduced into racing when wheel clearances were a problem. If I remember correctly, we first saw them in the IMSA and LeMans cars of the early 90's when wheels were limited by the rules to 18" in diameter. Brake designers worked with the wheel guys to maximize rotor diameter in that package. As a result, the cross-bolts were left out to gain just a little more rotor diameter, although they knew they were giving up a forgivable amount of stiffness. It was a trade-off that was OK during the time of carbon-carbon brakes and 12,000+ pounds of downforce (and -4.5g's of braking!!!). Simplifying the thought process significantly, if a driver could not lock up the wheels at 220mph, then the car could stand more brakes.

The racing monoblocks went on to use very exotic materials to regain the loss in stiffness, especially in Formula 1. Those materials have since been banned in most racing series today due to extremely high costs and, in one case (beryllium), potentially poisoning those that were machining them. The monoblocks sold in aftermarket kits today are definitely NOT made of those high-stiffness materials or they would cost $15k+ per axle.

So are monoblocks better? They can be, but be careful on what the salesmen tell you as they are not automatically so. I'm sure that if AP Racing felt it could make a stiffer monoblock street/track day caliper at a reasonable cost, they would have already done so. Until then, buyers are left to enjoy the advantages well-designed 2-piece calipers have over the "low-cost" monoblocks. One look at the currently dominating caliper on the NASCAR circuit (AP Racing Radi-Cal) and you'll see a very, very expensive monoblock that serves the intended purpose -- right into victory lane.

0Todd TCE

Price/value discussions aside,

I'm compelled to ask; just how do you go about finding this out?

Not taking sides with either part but I'd sure want to be able to back that up with something if I'd have made such a bold statement.


**oddly Chris and I seem to be on the same page at the same time. he's opted to go into greater depth....I chose to just ask the obvious question!

0C5stein

I've been around road racing and specifically suspension and brakes since 1984 and while that alone may not mean much, I do realize, and I'm sure that you would agree, that there is more to quality and performance than simply a brand name. I agree that the "RadiCal" that you showed a picture of is an increadible monoblock caliper that has few if any peers, that is why my friend and I are testing some right now and will be offering them in the near future. But the Baer monoblock doesn't cost $3000 per corner either. I agree with several of your comments and particularly " if a driver could not lock up the wheels at 220mph, then the car could stand more brakes". Here is what I know based on driving road race cars and being paid professionally to crew on Pro series race teams, if one brake set up stopped the car better (shorter distance, more consistantly start to finish...) leading to lower lap times, then we deemed that to be a better brake package (all other things remaining constant).
In the past 6 years, Baer Big Brake kits, have produced lower lap times, lower seasonal operating costs for several of my customers with dual purpose cars than any other brake system that we have tried (That includes Brembo, StopTech, Wilwood, The Brake Man...). And while I've stated earlier that I don't have any first hand info on the AP6000 and AP6050 in particular, I've seen them, and compaired those two to the Baer Mono and I may be wrong, but the Baer design appears to offers a more ridgid design. I know that not all one piece (monoblock) calipers are stiffer than the stiffest two piece calipers, and I also know that not all two piece calipers are stiffer (because of their bolts) than one piece calipers. Just wondering, Have you ever really examined or worked with the baer monoblock calipers before? If not, that is okay. Have you ever seen and studied from the past 5 years, an Alcon 6 piston, radial mounted, monoblock caliper? (Hint, see page 12)

0C5stein

In advance Sorry for the rant.

Chris_B

No worries on the rant! Some forums tend to be showcases for claims without much supporting evidence. I wasn't intending to make any claims, but will shed light on claims that seem a bit over the top or perhaps without data to back them.

I am very familiar with the Alcon brand. I was right in the middle of their first venture into the NASCAR series back in '91-'92 with Morgan-McClure's team. Our group had Ernie Irvin out-braking everybody at the road courses back then (not that too many people really care now...). They are an excellent company that has come a long way from a humble beginning. They did make Baer's first 4 and 6-piston calipers as I recall, but I don't believe they are involved in any way at the current time or have been in recent years, based on what I've been told by people involved. They do some private label work, like the Raybestos calipers currently used in NASCAR. Is that the type of connection you might be referring to?

I have seen the latest Baer monoblocks, but I have not worked with them yet. I can't vouch for how good they are and I surely can't tell you their stiffness numbers by looking at them! Many Shelby Mustang owners have varied and colorful opinions of them, as they have been told to me. Again, we are talking about street calipers here, which is where the monoblock design concept is most likely to fall short. For race calipers, cost is less of an issue (even though it is ALWAYS an issue) so designers have a bit more room to explore with creative and effective solutions. This is why and how a $4400 Brembo Gran Turismo kit becomes a $11,000 GTR kit for the same vehicle application.

I've seen plenty of good-looking designs fall short in one area or another. I used to make a living out of making part designs much better, stiffer, lighter, etc. Many times it worked out very well. Other times, well, those are stories I could do without telling.

My whole point reflects back on the claim about the Baer monoblocks being better/stiffer than AP Racing calipers for the C6 without a shred of supporting evidence. As such, it is bogus on its face. No buses involved. Without that claim, I wouldn't even have posted here.

Chris

0C5stein

Okay, Is anyone running the AP6000/AP6050 up here in northern california? I'd like to get some measurements off of your calipers if possible.

Or can anyone provide me with engineered drawings or Solid Works drawings of the AP6000/6050?

AU N EGL

Can these set ups be used with the stock C5 MC or does a different MC need to be used?

0Todd TCE

We agree that making bold statements without some hard (and very unlikely available) data to back it up can be a bit of a stretch. Not that any of the product in question is bad but rather that there's no promise of superiority by design either. From one who has taken the time to measure and analyze another brand of caliper to a great extent I'd agree that there are some inherent qualities of the calipers that would lead you to believe one would be stiffer than the other. The bridge thickness, bridge area, bolt qty and size, even grain structure.

On the whole stiffness thing the main comment is always referencing spread from anyone who looks at it. The harder you clamp the rotor....the more the caliper wants to blow itself apart. There are some issues that I personally feel are overstated and perhaps over promoted. Chris references 'out braking everybody' from some tests years ago. While on the track reaction time and measurements may come down to the 1/100th of second, on the street (or even the track enthusiast) this stiffness gain is not going to translate into improved braking: translated to the laymen as shorter braking distances. The weaker construction caliper is more than capable of generating the same clamping forces. It does it with more deflection and thus greater displacement and micro seconds of response time is all. The stiffer caliper is "more responsive" and linear in response but shorter distances...for the average consumer or track guy who can't string together 10 laps within a half second now; it's not going to produce much.

Another part of the reason these big calipers are so much stiffer is that they require a huge bridge span due to pads that are up to 1.10" thick. On rotors that are 1.625" wide. Let's be realistic here....nobody is going to fit those parts to an enthusiasts car. Some calipers are exceedingly heavy by design to make great claims to stiffness. While it may be correct how much space do you have or weight will you sacrifice??

Lastly, the flex issue can be traced at times back to both improper piston sizing and or pad choice. Too little area doesn't create enough clamping and too low of a pad Cf won't bite correctly or fade easier when superheated. Both require the caliper to be stressed far more than was intended. One company many years ago produced a popular chart of caliper stiffness and deflection that quickly grabbed your eye to show how wildly flexy all the other parts were. (great marketing graphic!) But reality was that when you put the chart into proper perspective and when you factored real world line pressures the net results were not nearly as extreme. If you're running a brake system at 1500psi all day long you have some seriously sticky tires, or some seriously undersized calipers!

All in its proper place. There's argument for and against any part, brakes or tires, or....Taking a more realistic point of view; there are also very few guys buying $3000 calipers also. And even fewer who would ever benefit from them.

ghoffman

Stan, those are road car calipers, with dust boots etc, they are not the Radi-cals. The 5040 is a far superior solution. It's only .75mm wider than the 6600, but it has a stiffening bridge across the top, SS pistons, Anti-knockback springs, high temp seals, etc. The 6600 has only alu. Pistons, far less common pad shape, boot type dust boots which will burn up, painted finish which will cook...just not nearly as good of a choice for heavy track use. We will be offering the 5040 for about $900 a corner for the T1 competitors. It has a 21mm thick pad that is made by many companies and costs about $180 per axle in a wide range of compounds.

I am running the AP Radi-cals, as is the GT2 Corvette driven by O'Connell et all. Note the air bridge for caliper cooling.


Here are your CAD models:

This is the 5040 on a C6 spindle:

Note, the black line is 2.3 inches for wheels clearance comparison.



AP DTM Radi-cal with 25mm thick pads:


PFC 05 pads for the Radi-cal (center) as compared to the Brembo and ST60

ghoffman

OK, I did not address stiffness. It takes alot for a monoblock to equal the stiffness of a 2 piece caliper mainly because steel is 3x stiffer than aluminum and the 6 primary cross bolts plus the 2 bridge bolts on the AP5040 is really stiff. The AP Radical is the best there is now, but it is $3K per corner so well it should be! In addition, stiff at room temp is one thing, stiff at operating temperatures is another. This is a curve of stiffness versus temperature for 7075 aluminum (at temp the alloy does not matter much) and you can see that at 400F you have lost about 25% and at 600F you have lost 50% of your room temp stiffness! Note the temp sticker on the Radi-cal in the pics above, it is at about 340 and that was without the airbridge working. If you test a caliper with aluminum pistons the same way, you can expect well over 500F and your caliper is starting to turn into mush.

fatbillybob

Hey Gary,

Acedemic question: I have never seen that cool caliper cooling duct.
We know we want calipers cool so fluid does not boil. We know we want hubs cool so bearing don't cook. So what are high level pro racers doing cooling ducts to the caliper and hub center? Or does the hub cooling alone make it through the rotor slots to cool the calipers? If a rotor is designed to pump air from the hub center and then out the rotor doesn't that just upset the airflow when air is pumped in from the caliper?

Chris_B

None of the complete AP Racing road kits require a MC change, including the C5 and C6.