Canuck

Was wondering about this system.... apparently it is the SCCA rules on handicapping cars for power adders etc. Not sure how they figure a little lightweight Miata with a Ford V8 has a better chance then a heavy, wider wheelbase corvette. We have a local club here in BC Canada and a lot of the autocrossers have the imports, hence the votes for the PAX system. ( they claim it pits driver against driver better regardless of the vvehicl ).
Personally, I don't like it but because there are so few vettes here locally, we depend on the imports to support the event.
Was wondering if anyone has any input on this or can elaborate.

Much appreciated
Terry

thehammer69

There are many places where PAX is used. Many regions use it for their Pro Class. And smaller regions tend to use it because they lack enough participants to fill classes.

I have mixed feelings about PAX. If you are running on National style courses, I think it works good. If you are running on small tight courses, I feel that the more PAX advantageous classes typically tend to benefit more.

I run in the Pro class in my region and with an ASP Vette, I pretty much have accepted that I am non competitive for the type of courses we have. But it wouldn't be fair to the up and comers if I was to run regular open ASP class in our region and scare them away, so that is why I do it.

Oh, and btw, the PAX index isn't put out by the SCCA. So there is no SCCA rules governing it. From my recollection, it is generated by a group or person out of the Chicago area and is chosen to be used by the regions who do so. Which is perfectly legal to do so, as Regions are allowed by the SCCA to deviate and run their own class structures.

66IISS

Rick Ruth, or RTP Rick as he's known on many forums, is the main man behind this PAX System. Each year he compares hundreds of events from across the country in an effort to determine what cars with what modifications should be charged with an "index multiplier" in order to better compare car to driver.

Now, since there is a lot of variation in car setup, driver ability, course conditions etc, there's going to be a lot of variation in the results. While the PAX may favor you one day with one course, it will likely hurt you another day with a different course. It's incredibly challenging to create a perfect course where all cars are at an equal advantage, but at the end of the day PAX is about the best way to compare you in your big hearty V8 vs. that menacing miata that, for some un-known reason, is obtaining comparable times with 1/5 the horsepower.

TedDBere

Rick develops the PAX system to provide a handicap system for the sport of autox.

The PAX system uses the SCCA Solo classes so you'll need to follow that classing system for the PAX to be remotely useful to your region.

He compares the best drivers in the country, in the best prepped cars, to give the classes a PAX multiplier to equalize the classes. Every year he tweaks the index to reflect changes in the cars and drivers in the classes.

Go to this site and click on the "PAX Index" tab in the right hand column and you'll see both a description and the PAX indices for the current and past years: http://autox4u.com

Good luck.

Solofast

All of the above said, the PAX index is actually a very good "tell tale" of how you are doing, assuming that there is "national level" competition at your particular event. If you can run with national level drivers on the index you can pretty well figure that when you get to Nationals that you will be in the hunt. In my experience the index is actually very accurate, and I've seen it work for more than 25 years, back to when it was first developed for the "Portage Grand Prix" in the early 80's. Rick puts a lot of time and effort into the index each year and it shows.

While it isn't perfect, and it changes from day to day, course to course and it pretty much sucks if the weather gets crappy, it is a very useful tool.

If you are getting hammered on the index and the courses aren't tight go-cart tracks maybe you need to look in the mirror to see the problem.

AverageVetteNut

+1 on that...

we use the PAX for overall driver of the year standings and for overall finish place in our region on top of the class finish.

Some that run alone in a class benefit so they can see just how they stack up against the 'hot shoe' in the region.

PLUS... for those of us that do national events, we can see how we stack up within our local national drivers and get an idea of what to expect @ a tour/pro event.

RX7 KLR

PAX is a tool used by slow drivers to make themselves feel better about their runs - the math cuts down the margin they got beat by.

Surface, lot size, course design and many other factors have a big influence on how PAX plays out at any given event.

PAX=crap.

Last time I checked the winner was the guy who crossed the finish line first, or in the case of Solo with the quickest time. You don't need a calculator (and a handicap) to figure that out.

Solofast

So if you win your class by every weekend , but get hammered on the PAX by three seconds you can expect to go to Nationals and win or even trophy... Who are you kidding.

A class win at anything less than a tour event is worthless if you don't have national level competition, and plenty of it because one person can have a bad day. The PAX is a good way to measure that performance when you don't have two or three national level competitiors in your class.

If you take your times and compare them on the PAX you will find that more often than not you are probably right up there in the top few cars. Moreover, take a look at any one of your PAX finishes and I would bet that if you did poorly you won't be saying "I was hooked and the car worked perfectly and I hit all my marks".... More likely you will be figuring that you effed up the run in more than one place.

The PAX is a way to compare how you are doing when you are at a regional event when there isn't competiton in your class, nothing more. And no, it isn't supposed to be a perfect system, but it does a darn good job of providing a measure of performance between the very different cars and classes in the SCCA.

RX7 KLR

Keep drinking the PAX flavored Kool-Aid, and thinking those numbers mean you are going fast.

grantar2

Not sure I understand the sour grapes with PAX. Your signature line says you located in a region with a number of national champions, a number of who run PAX. Your a multi year national champion, seems the number validate the concept.

Admittedly I am a novice in Autocross so I would demur to those who have been around awhile. I am hanging out in Novice, hell I got beat by a Yaris not long ago, wonder who was driving.

RX7 KLR

I expressed the issues I see with PAX in my first post - there are too many variables and outside influences.

I do have the pleasure of being located within a short distance of two very competitive Regions, with many Natl Champions. And many of them run in PAX. I don't run in pax, last time I checked there was not a pax class at natls - and I think I managed to win natls without the benefit of PAX. I know how fast I need to go to get it done in my class, I don't need to run PAX at a local event to figure it out. And I certainly would not use this magic number to try and fool myself into thinking I am better than another driver, in another class, on a given day. If you are not in the same class you have no idea what challenges that person might be facing with a given course. You only beat them, if you beat them, doing it with a handicap is fooling yourself.

To me anything short of a natl tour is just practice, so I don't worry to much about local competition.

I know people that have dominated pax, only to fall flat on their faces at a natl event. It means nothing, it is a toy.

I am not a golfer, but maybe someone else can answer this... If you take your handicap (golf pax) and go a stroke under, do you think you are as good as Tiger (Tiger when he was still getting some and could swing the stick)?

The Yaris is not an autox car.

TedDBere

Jason, in golf the handicap is for the golfer, in autox the PAX is for the equipment.

Tad harsh Jason, IMHO. ProSolos use an index for the challenges and the bump classes (and the fastest driver rarely wins those) and in 2011 Nationals will probably be instituting an index class too. Yes course variance matter, they matter a lot, but PAX keeps local competition interesting between the regional talent and is a decent way to compare across classes.

acrace

But at a PGA golf tournament (or Seniors Tour, or LPGA) everyone plays "heads up". So we should do away with classes and FTD wins. Clemens Burger wins everywhere

RX7 KLR

We already have that system in place... CP=Seniors Tour, HS=LPGA, SS=PGA.

RX7 KLR

And you don't see that as a problem? Could this also be one of the reasons Pro Solo is being called "the read headed step child" of the Solo program on another popular forum?

fej

We run PAX, and it usually translates to a pretty solid picture of who was fast, and who wasn't. Many of the same people are FTD at our events, and PAX in the top five. We have many multiple national champs at our events, and in our region (SF).

Sometimes the PAX needs tweaking, especially when a new ride pops into a class and takes a year or two to fully sort out. Those are the years where the PAX gives too large an adjustment, but it is usually corrected pretty quickly. And believe me there are some incredibly whiny people that ensure it happens.

Considering the variables: Driver skill, weather conditions, "course" conditions, course layout and design, widths, distances between slalom cones, car prep etc,etc ... the PAX system does a pretty decent job.

I hear what RX7 is saying, and anyone who relies solely on how they "PAX" is living a pipe dream when it comes to National level competition, but I don't think it is completely useless either.

Fej

Pylons

it's possible that PAX is something between perfect and useless toy

and to compare PAX to golf handicaps shows a lack of understanding for how at least one of those tools works

It's certainly not "perfect." There's no way to develop an index that can factor in the thousands of variables that exist from class to class, event to event, etc.

However, if you want/need a vehicle to allow drivers/cars from different classes to compete, there's really no other way to do it.

And if you look at PAX with some perspective, it can be a useful tool for measuring your performance...no, not some magical be-all, end-all, if-I-beat-you-on-index-I'm-a-better-driver-than-you number, but *useful*

Solofast

Exactly.... It is but one tool in your toolbox of ways to measure your performance. While a lot of regions run a "PAX" class that isn't the point of the index, it's just a way to see how you are doing, not a be all and end all. To ignore it is simply stupid too.

waktasz

It's not the end all be all of course, but Rick puts a lot of work into it, and the sample size is sufficiently large enough, and has been evolving over the years to be pretty accurate.

Our region has a decent amount of good drivers, but they are running in all sorts of different classes. Usually there are only 1 or two other cars in SS regionally, so comparing PAX times to other drivers in other classes is a nice way to see where you stand.

I find the index to be pretty accurate, except in the rain, and on runway type courses for F-mod

AverageVetteNut

YES... locally last year, unless i offered up a co-drive, I was the ONLY person in SS 90% of the time.

This year we have at least 1 other car that will be there consistently.