John Shiels

With the accidents reported here at driving events seems it is getting out of hand on speed vs safety. I mean no cage is just crazy.

Through no fault of your own you could be spinning and rolling even driving 8/10ths due to dropped fluids, blown tires, mechanical failure, or some idiot next to you.

I mean even my 11 year old car with 450/400 pulls 165 at Pocono and over 150 at most every other track except shorties like Pocono east or south. I have a 4 point but it is still a band aid at best. 600 rwhp and I think I could pull 175-180, no?

New ZR-1's modded 427's 600 rwhp is common now where they surpass sister cars that do real racing.

If I ever get the time and energy to get my bucket of bolts back running I doubt I will feel comfortable without a cage. After doing 40 + days at the track some years I think my luck may be about to run out

Depending on the stuff designed in a street car is just a fantasy. I see accidents on the street at 50 mph and there are bodies everywhere and fatalities.

How comfortable do you feel?

wallyman424

Just like I've told everyone else.

I sold my street z06 the week after I did my first HPDE. I bought a T1 car w/ a cage the next month.

I just didnt feel comfortable w/o a cage.

OKsweetrides

Scary thought is that a stock vette still offers better protection than many other cars that are seen on the track.

I *personally* think that there should be a much larger emphasis on safety equipment by even HPDE's. Pay to play as the saying goes. 600rwhp in a street car using the stock 3 point?! *Shudders*

flink

Well yes. It's this thinking which made me stop tracking the 440hp GTO and buy a 220hp e36 race car. Doing 130+ in a street car with a three-point belt (or a harness) is just a matter of time...

This may not be a particularly popular (or relevant!) point on a Corvette forum, but... for those who are thinking of taking the step into a properly prepped track car: do you reeeeeeealy need all that horsepower? Is it worth it? Double the power is double the impact energy, plus more stress on parts and much higher consumable costs.

220hp/2400lbs on 245mm tires can be fun too and it's less likely to make you dead. Having noodled around in the e36 for nearly a year, I don't find myself thinking about high-hp cars at all.

Anyway. Some food for thought, maybe.

John Shiels

Like many I thought of more power a while back. Then I said how fast do i really want to go with no cage. Then I thought even with a cage do I want to go that fast? My plan is to reduce weight, play with the suspension more, few aero tweaks, may be brakes upgrade and a CAGE / fire system. I still have fun running down cars with 150 more HP.

i have seen people killed racing offshore and it is no joke and it can happen to you.

I love Pocono Long Course the best and the banking and high speeds but I have a blast at the East course also where you hit about 130 and there are tons of turns where power means less.

I can't believe insurance companies are not putting rates for events to the sky. Anyone ever hear of a insurance rep come watch an event? I think PDA had one years back but I am not sure.

SIK02SS

A T-1 legal cage can even be looked at as not safe with how fast we go at many tracks. I mean, we don't even have front bars..

So to answer your question, yes we are

Jason

If NASA hadn't offered a competition series that did not require a full cage, I probably never would have moved past autox and the occasional DE. It's why I moved from SCCA to NASA in the first place, I wasn't ready to give up my street car and cage it. I pushed my luck for over a year, and now my car is caged.

I almost think TT should have a time frame that says you can start out with a street car, but after so many years/events you need to move to a caged car. Most people probably realize that for themselves I guess.

95jersey

One reason I recently choose brakes over a CAM. I am already hitting crazy speeds on even very short straits. I hit 150mph like it was NOTHING at Lightning and that is a 1.9 mile track. I haven't ever done the long course at Pocono with the car John, for that very reason. To this day my C6Z scares me in ways my 425rwhp C5Z never did. I have a level of respect that I never needed with my C5Z, the throttle is like a hammer.

John Shiels

torque is the difference.

drivinhard

IMHO the biggest (potential) advantage of a cage is window nets, and/or a head containment seat if you have one. you've got a much higher chance of slapping a wall sideways and trying to put your head out the window into said wall, than you do flipping.

my biggest fears:

1. sideways flat hit into wall (like Z06cool, yesh)
2. somebody trying to park their car in my door
3. fire

a cage is a smart and good thing, but it's by no means any get out of jail free ticket. I've seen a lot of "cages" that I'd never remotely trust. cage, seat, harness, heat containment, restraints, nets, all work as a system.

I drive 50-60 mph to work everyday on a 2 lane, which is 100-120 mph impact speeds with 3 pts and much less talented drivers around me. my closest calls this year were getting to, and from the track, including a near head on driving 3 miles to Road Atlanta @ 6 am in June.

stano

The reason you will never see a cage being mandatory at an HPDE is because it now limits the car count and car counts are what pay for the track rental and in some cases profit for the organizer.

I'm looking at one of Mike Tracy's C5 car

68sixspeed

I tried one of those 50-60 each way head-ons about 15 years ago-- no fun, I probably shouldn't be here even though I had my belt on, broken sternum, back, leg in 18 places. Start getting around 140 at the track and the same thing goes through my head, "slow down idiot, this is still a street car".

Problem is for a dual use car, a cage on the street is dangerous and in many states illegal. The chances of a head strike to the cage w/o a helmet can kill you just as easy or easier than an on track problem. If funds were unlimited I think a dedicated track car with a cage would be great thing, but for something I'm not doing weekly I just can't justify it.

donymo

Well said. Everyone takes MUCH greater risks by driving on roads where head on collisions are WAY more likely to kill you. I have been doing HPDE's for 10 years and I can only think of a couple of fatalities.

Traffic fatalities in the U.S. hit a 55 year low in 2009...and 34,000 people were killed!!!

The fact that you have a helmet, flag workers, more experienced and aware drivers around you, walls to contain you increase the chances you'll survive a crash dramatically. And besides, you gotta die sometime

63Corvette

[QUOTE=John Shiels;1574899038]With the accidents reported here at driving events seems it is getting out of hand on speed vs safety. I mean no cage is just crazy.

Through no fault of your own you could be spinning and rolling even driving 8/10ths due to dropped fluids, blown tires, mechanical failure, or some idiot next to you.

I mean even my 11 year old car with 450/400 pulls 165 at Pocono and over 150 at most every other track except shorties like Pocono east or south. I have a 4 point but it is still a band aid at best. 600 rwhp and I think I could pull 175-180, no?

New ZR-1's modded 427's 600 rwhp is common now where they surpass sister cars that do real racing.

If I ever get the time and energy to get my bucket of bolts back running I doubt I will feel comfortable without a cage. After doing 40 + days at the track some years I think my luck may be about to run out

Depending on the stuff designed in a street car is just a fantasy. I see accidents on the street at 50 mph and there are bodies everywhere and fatalities.

How comfortable do you feel?[/QUOTE]

Hi John, I feel VERY comfortable. because I have a four point roll bar in my race car, and I race with professionals (I don't do DEs).
My street car is MUCH faster than my race car, and (I feel) more likely to be included in a fatal accident because at the track there is always first class medical (and fire) right there at the scene.
The key in my case is the phrase "PERIOD PREPARATION", and the fact that "ANY incident sufficient to cause damage to your, or another car, shall result in suspension of driving priveleges for a period of 13 months."
Also, I'm 70 years old, so that may impact my perspective

John Shiels

you gotta die sometime so do you look both ways before crossing the road.?

two cars hitting head on at 60 mph is a 60 mph impact I have read.

getting a blow out at 60 is way different than 165 mph.

My closest call was at Pocono coming out of the infield on the long course. One jerk just about stopped as he was going into the pits. Problem is he was still just around the corner. Someone else was right behind him near stopped and niether had their hand out of the window. I came screaming around the corner and the corner worker didn't see it either. Once I realized they were doing 5 mph I hit the brakes in the corner then realized I was not going to make the stop so I drove off on to the grass then back on the pavement for my deepest track breath ever. I almost hit the back of the car at a good 70-80 mph.

RX-Ben

Unless you can exclusively track your car, a cage presents a pretty serious safety problem on the street. Unless you wear a helmet. I would add a cage to my car in a heartbeat otherwise, except I drive my car to the track. Storing a race car is tough in Brooklyn.
Maybe the trade-off is to wear harnesses on the street (to limit head movement) and swap in the stock belts for inspection?

John Shiels

I saw Eliot Sadlers accident at Pocono where he goes off track and hits the armco. He hit so hard the engine ripped out of the car. They said they were working on safety for the track in that area. I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure where cars can hit dead on or soft walls are needed. It seems it takes an accident to find things that should be obvious to teams and track officials.

68sixspeed

actually the physics says 60 head on to 60 (assume equal mass of cars, dead on hit) is the same as 60 into a concrete structure that does not give or absorb any energy at all. (much worse than hitting armco, etc.)

Makes for a sudden stop, people inside keep moving. ouch. Most track blows are luckily not straight on into the concrete. (makes me think of years ago - Michael Waltrip at catching the gate on the pit entrance I think at Bristol?)

63Corvette

Yeah, they had an interview with him on SPEED tonight with the video and his comments. I saw him get out of the car and sorta collapse on the ground. he said in interview that without the HANS he didn't think he woulda survived, but he had only bruises.

RX-Ben

Which brings up a good point - when I mentioned OE belts above, that would include using a Rage R3 hybrid, which tests significantly better than a HANS and works with stock belts.
The indirect hits are hardly less serious (Earnhardt) and a HANS is req'd to protect against those.

OT - anyone have any data/experience on whether/how much a full containment seat (like a Cobra Evo - http://www.winecountrymotorsports.co...roducts_id=332) offers in terms of additional protection?