Han Solo

You see posts from time to time saying a HPDE participant is charged for damage for clean up to a track where they wrecked or had an engine blow.

In another thread I saw where someone said they would make drivers pay for broken timing equipment if they hit it at an auto-x event.

My question is where does it say in any of the sign up forms that participants are liable for these charges?

We all sign waivers saying we don't hold the organizers or any other participants liable if WE incur damages. So where does it say we are responsible for damages. Don't these same waivers protect everyone?

Shouldn't the organizers insurance pay for any damages to tracks or timing equipment if it occurs?

CHJ In Virginia

If you play and screw up you pay. Read the liability / disclaimer closely that you sign when entering an event. Places like the Glen and VIR will definitely bill the organization running the event for repair costs, damages, etc. realized during an accident situation. If you hit the guard rail armco, or oil the track down and it takes 10 bags of stay dri to clean it up, you are responsible. The organization will then send you a bill. Don't pay and you will never run with them again and depending on the size of the bill possibly face legal action. It's all about personable respponsibility, if you can't afford to pay - don't play. That may seem cold but it is a fact. The organization's insurance does not protect you in any way from liability.

Wayne O

These stipulations might be contained in the organization Rules...perhaps you agree to abide by the Rules when you sign-in and/or sign a waiver. I'm sure different organizations have differing rules and policies but from my experience (in the groups I run in) it's 'common knowledge' you can be held liable for damages you cause. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Han Solo

Don't misunderstand my questions. I'm not looking to get out of anything. I just wonder where it states participant liability in the waivers or sign up forms. I understand that people say it's common knowledge you are responsible for track damages but I don't think I've ever seen it spelled out in anything I signed to run.

What about if you have contact with another car or another participant hits your car? Do the waivers exempt either party from liability? I would never drive in a manner that would cause this but nothing saying an equipment failure couldn't occur during a pass or something out of your control.

I've read the SCCA waiver they use at autocrosses from beginning to end and nothing in that says you are responsible for anything. Just that the club and other participants are not responsible if anything happens to you.

Why would the organizers be required to carry insurance if it didn't serve to cover track and equipment damages? And if damages occur and the insurance pays it why would they expect the participant to reimburse them?

These are JUST QUESTIONS. Nobody goes to an event expecting to have an accident or cause damage.

cebars

A search on the Forum for "liability insurance" will yield alot of threads (many discussing the insurance to protect only the damage to your car vs liability insurance to protect you from the cost of having to cover the cost of any damage, injury or worse where the courts may find you to be responsible) including but not limited to:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...insurance.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...derations.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...oss-today.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...insurance.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...insurance.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ck-events.html

The loss of my car is not my main concern at an HPDE. Being sued for an accident on a track (regardless of whether or not I am found responsible) that results in damage, injury or death to others is why having liability insurance and recognizing the limits of my present driving skills are important when at an HPDE.

Some events I have attended were extremely well run. The need for liability insurance became questionable. However, these well run events do not provide what liability insurance does.

I believe that NCM has recognized the need for both type of insurance coverage.

Han Solo

Thanks for the links cebar. I have previously read most of those threads but I will peruse them again.

AU N EGL

On those same release forms. You release the organization and the Facility, from damages, but THEY can charge you if YOU damage their facilities or equipment.

Zenak

At watkins glenn you get charged $600 per guard rail and $50 per bag of kitty litter for fluids.

A cone is cheap

AU N EGL

and guard rails come in section of TWO.

VetteDrmr

The requirement to pay for damaged timing equipment is spelled out in the rules document for the group I run with. When you register you agree to abide by those rules. So the liability waiver doesn't spell it out, the rules book does.

Have a good one,
Mike

longdaddy

from what I understand, organizers' insurance is mostly designed to cover their liability, and not any possible expenses that result from damages their customers may cause..

example would be as follows:
if a driver ran into a tire wall and it needed to be rebuilt, insurance does not cover that automatically, so the organization passes the bill from the track on to the driver.

but, if the driver was to come back and successfully sue the organizers proving that it was, for example, some negligent action (or negligent lack of action) on the part of the organizers that caused him to run into the wall (or significantly contributed to it), than the insurance would kick in to pay as a result of a court ruling or settlement, which would likely cover the costs of rebuilding the tire wall as well.

I guess if the driver would just refuse to pay, organizers insurance may kick in since they are the ones getting billed by the track, but then the insurance can sue to collect from the driver. You definitely do not want to be sued by an insurance company - they will likely have better lawyers.

AU N EGL

Drive would have to leave a check before he could take is car out of the paddock.

the weaver signed at the gate, in most cases, says that the participant, family or representative may not sue for what ever reason.

Motorsports is about personal responsibility. With out that, there would be no motor sports

jaa1992

Every event I've been to at the MANDATORY drivers meeting there has been a "You break it, you bought it" statement. Modified of course for the venue, somtimes they will tell you "oil dri is $50 a bag, blow your engine on the track you could be looking at hundreds of $$$"

longdaddy

you cannot sign away your right to be compensated as a result of someone else's negligent or malicious actions. waivers do serve a purpose but "what ever reason" is not how this works from a legal perspective.

John Shiels

fatbillybob

Boy are you dreaming! This happened at one of my home tracks very high profile. The worst part of it the ferrari driver had vicarious liability of 2%.

http://www.tremek.com/forum/general-...tled-4-5m.html

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...608_466074.htm

AU N EGL

EACH State varies and why you see signs posted as such. Spectators, Participates, injury, liability and soforth

If an individual does not want to take personal responsibility for their own action, they must and should not participate in those activities.

if you are worried about such issues, DO NOT participate in that activity.

North Carolina, South Carolina and Virgina for activities associated or venues that have horses, motorcycles or auto racing, were the potential of injury, harm or even death, All liability is the responsibility of that person who is at the location, Spectator or participant.

Now the California suite ( Fatbilly mentions above) against Fontania race way, the PCA club that hosted the event, Porsche, plus several others has changed the way many clubs do events.

Stricter rules, stricter enforcement, and if you do not agree to the Events / Clubs / tracks rules, you can leave.

I have asked participants to leave, and even kicked a few out because they did not follow the our events rules.

waktasz

Autocross is different but I've never heard of anyone having to pay for timing equipment (or smashed port-a-pottys)

longdaddy

AU N EGL, while I agree and support the spirit of what you are saying, I do have issues with some of the statements

ok we were talking about waivers now we switched to state laws.

yes, state laws governing liability and release of such as a result of negligence are usually a lot stronger and tend to hold up in courts better than various waiver form.

i seriously doubt that there are waivers OR state laws that would protect other event participants or organizers from liability for the results of "misconduct" or "malicious action", i.e. having someone ram your car and run you off the track on purpose because you were pissing that person off.

I disagree. Being worried about such issues is good - it demonstrates that one has a mature and responsible approach to taking risks. I hope more people research the risks and their exposure and make a decision based on that.

Expecting participants to be responsible for their actions is one thing, making a statement that whatever happens, whatever wrongs are commited by others, you are on your own is pretty misleading. If this was the case, noone would buy expensive liability insurance coverage in order to organize a track day.

AU N EGL

Have you read the event liability insurance coverage ? It basically covers the track and faculties. Not any car to car contact or car to barrier contact.

Car to Car contact is the responsibility of the car owners, in which case a gentleman's agreement comes into who fixes what? Usually it is each fixes their own car, and go their separate ways. or if one partly clearly says " I was at fault. I will pay for your repairs." Both parties are happy. Insurance coverage? not likely, but out of pocket

or anothe example:

Car one blows a motor and dumps oil on the track, car two 2 secs latter comes along hits the oil and slides off and hits a barrier and damages car two. Who is liable? Car one for dumping the oil on the track? or car two for not seeing the debris flag or not seeing the oil on the track? Each party takes care of their own. Plus Car one gets the track bill for track clean up with oil dry. Car two may get a track bill for damaging the barrier.

Event insurance for a car or personal car insurance should be read over very very carefully for what it does and does not cover.

You are correct that each person should be worried, but is that not taking personal responsibility? ie don.t race or take to the track what you can not afford to walk away from if you ball it up?

In addition, the track and club may issue a 13/13 punishment or an out right ban for 13 months or kicked out permanently to the offending party.

and your finally paragraph may be moot. Look at all the participants who do DEs / track days without insurance coverage? Each persons own personal car insurance may or may not cover them on a road designed for contests of speed or timing. ( read the auto insurance disclosure statements )

as far as "liability for the results of "misconduct" or "malicious action" That is what the rules of the event are for, and why this does not happen. These events are not NASCAR bump racing. or OPEN track events where anything goes. Watch a Grand AM or ALMS race and see if there is a deliberate car to car contact. That is dealt with quickly and severely by the race officials.

Car to car contact is watched / monitored closely. If it happens it is dealt with quickly by the Event Master and the tracks Control official.

If you are afraid of car to car contact or someones "misconduct" or "malicious action" Do not participate in that event. You play by the rules or you don't play at all.

NASA, SCCA and most clubs have rules that are followed for the races or DEs or track events. If you dont follow the rules you don't participate, or you get kicked out. period.

Read the SCCA or NASA rule books to start. Look at the sections on car to car contact. See what they say?