DE compared to TT re: safety
10-22-2011, 11:47 PM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
DE compared to TT re: safety
I have on several occasions read a post that said, more or less, when I started doing Time Trials I put (list of safety equipment) in.
Now correct me if I am wrong, as I have never done a TT, but shouldn't a time trial, be safer, if anything than a DE.
From the little I know about TT, the drivers are ranked by lap times (usually from a saturday DE) and started at safe intervals and limited as to number of cars on track so as to intentionally prevent anyone from catching anyone else.
Everyone gets a clean lap with no one being blocked/impeded.
Compare to a red group/open passing DE and I don't understand why some forum members think they need more safety equipment when they start to TT.
Maybe I'm missing something.
Is it just that they "try harder" because the TT is a "competition'?
Timing goes on with most of the upper groups at de's, whether it's "official" or not.
Now correct me if I am wrong, as I have never done a TT, but shouldn't a time trial, be safer, if anything than a DE.
From the little I know about TT, the drivers are ranked by lap times (usually from a saturday DE) and started at safe intervals and limited as to number of cars on track so as to intentionally prevent anyone from catching anyone else.
Everyone gets a clean lap with no one being blocked/impeded.
Compare to a red group/open passing DE and I don't understand why some forum members think they need more safety equipment when they start to TT.
Maybe I'm missing something.
Is it just that they "try harder" because the TT is a "competition'?
Timing goes on with most of the upper groups at de's, whether it's "official" or not.
10-23-2011, 12:43 AM
#2
Safety Car
If you are in a region that gets enough TT'ers to have their own run group, it can be safer than if you need to share w/DE 4 and instructors. If you run w/4s and instructors, can be hairy since they are generally just driving around and you are trying to deliver the mail.
Even with a quality (45mph) outlap to bunch up the field, in many tracks you will hit traffic within ~3-4 laps. You will get a few clean laps, if all goes well.
Despite the stream of stuff I read about people seriously wanting to win their DE, there is really no motivation for pushing above 95% or so. For TT, with purple crack on the line, you will often get into the 101% range. I will push very hard in areas where I think the consequences are more limited than other areas that are unforgiving. But then that kind of goes away if my claim to the purple crack is challenged.
Even with a quality (45mph) outlap to bunch up the field, in many tracks you will hit traffic within ~3-4 laps. You will get a few clean laps, if all goes well.
Despite the stream of stuff I read about people seriously wanting to win their DE, there is really no motivation for pushing above 95% or so. For TT, with purple crack on the line, you will often get into the 101% range. I will push very hard in areas where I think the consequences are more limited than other areas that are unforgiving. But then that kind of goes away if my claim to the purple crack is challenged.
10-23-2011, 08:03 AM
#3
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TT are very aggressive and only out there for 2-3 laps, vs a DE session the full 20-30 min
TT normally pass any place without point, DEs pass with point most places, not always in the corners.
TT normally pass any place without point, DEs pass with point most places, not always in the corners.
10-23-2011, 09:48 AM
#4
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Reality is you should have the same equipment for a DE as well, but that would keep most from ever doing a DE. When you make it all the way up to TT you have shown you are not right in the head and that you will probably be doing track days more than once a season. Odds are something will happen, it's not a matter of if but when and the more you are out there the more likely. IMO the divers most likely to get in trouble are DE 2-3 and those that drive over their head. That being said I have put a car in a tire wall, never a street car but my race car. Was it a driving error, no it was a mental error. I went out pissed and was passing a guy in qualifying on cold tires that didn't want to be passed, I got pushed out in the marbles and wet grass on cold slicks. Did I need to pass him? No Could I have waited? yes Was it dumb? F Yeah
The moral of the story, driving skill and the fastest hands in the world can't overcome mental errors. Competition creates mental errors by both you and you competitor and it only takes one to wreck a car and seriously injure or kill you.
The odds of something happening are very slim but when you add the fact that you are now doing this all the time, trying to win something & are taking some things for granted that when you were new you were to nervous not to check, tires, bearing and a list of a 100 other things you "used" to go over the odds aren't so good anymore.
Here is a TT lap at Mid Ohio
http://vimeo.com/6290976
Not quite HPDE, no point byes, no waiting & I could have stuffed it under that BMW.
The moral of the story, driving skill and the fastest hands in the world can't overcome mental errors. Competition creates mental errors by both you and you competitor and it only takes one to wreck a car and seriously injure or kill you.
The odds of something happening are very slim but when you add the fact that you are now doing this all the time, trying to win something & are taking some things for granted that when you were new you were to nervous not to check, tires, bearing and a list of a 100 other things you "used" to go over the odds aren't so good anymore.
Here is a TT lap at Mid Ohio
http://vimeo.com/6290976
Not quite HPDE, no point byes, no waiting & I could have stuffed it under that BMW.
Last edited by L98Terror; 10-23-2011 at 10:03 AM.
10-23-2011, 02:17 PM
#5
Race Director
Thread Starter
I think I understand now that TT run under vastly different rules on different tracks and with different organizers.
Running a TT at the same time as a DE seems like asking for trouble.
I do get the point that DE has to run with less equipment or the attendance would be too low to rent the track.
Also get that once you commit to TT you are doing A lot of events every year, more miles = more risk.
Thanks guys, any more?
Running a TT at the same time as a DE seems like asking for trouble.
I do get the point that DE has to run with less equipment or the attendance would be too low to rent the track.
Also get that once you commit to TT you are doing A lot of events every year, more miles = more risk.
Thanks guys, any more?
10-23-2011, 02:34 PM
#6
My first reaction is to say the safety is about equal but for different reasons. I'll define safety as the [opposite of] likelyhood to go off track out of control.
HPDE safety is usually (or should be) governed by the instructor for HPDE1-2 students, and by the solo student's level of risk management skills. HPDE1-3 single driver accidents are usually due to running out of skill when a crisis occurs.
In contrast, TT single driver accidents probably occur more simply due to pushing the limits all the time. TTers by definition are competing, and want to win, especially when it is for the purple crack as RX-Ben mentioned. I know I've gone off track much more often Time Trialing than I ever did in HPDE. But at least I've gone off under control, and I feel like I can respond to most emergencies.
That being said, I run the minimum safety equipment for TT (helmet only). Not saying its smart, but I am thankful we have the choice.
Wow, that sounds sketchy to run TT with HPDE4, mainly because HPDE4 usually expects a courtesy point by. I can see a TTer coming up on a slower HPDE4 car, and the HPDE4 driver may not expect a pass and close the door...when the TTer is expecting to make a pass. Heck, I've had that happen in the TT only session a few times. The skill level is close, but TTers by nature are going to be much more aggressive. With NASA MA, we sometimes have TT warmup with HPDE4, but never the timed competition sessions.
HPDE safety is usually (or should be) governed by the instructor for HPDE1-2 students, and by the solo student's level of risk management skills. HPDE1-3 single driver accidents are usually due to running out of skill when a crisis occurs.
In contrast, TT single driver accidents probably occur more simply due to pushing the limits all the time. TTers by definition are competing, and want to win, especially when it is for the purple crack as RX-Ben mentioned. I know I've gone off track much more often Time Trialing than I ever did in HPDE. But at least I've gone off under control, and I feel like I can respond to most emergencies.
That being said, I run the minimum safety equipment for TT (helmet only). Not saying its smart, but I am thankful we have the choice.
If you are in a region that gets enough TT'ers to have their own run group, it can be safer than if you need to share w/DE 4 and instructors. If you run w/4s and instructors, can be hairy since they are generally just driving around and you are trying to deliver the mail.
Even with a quality (45mph) outlap to bunch up the field, in many tracks you will hit traffic within ~3-4 laps. You will get a few clean laps, if all goes well.
Despite the stream of stuff I read about people seriously wanting to win their DE, there is really no motivation for pushing above 95% or so. For TT, with purple crack on the line, you will often get into the 101% range. I will push very hard in areas where I think the consequences are more limited than other areas that are unforgiving. But then that kind of goes away if my claim to the purple crack is challenged.
Even with a quality (45mph) outlap to bunch up the field, in many tracks you will hit traffic within ~3-4 laps. You will get a few clean laps, if all goes well.
Despite the stream of stuff I read about people seriously wanting to win their DE, there is really no motivation for pushing above 95% or so. For TT, with purple crack on the line, you will often get into the 101% range. I will push very hard in areas where I think the consequences are more limited than other areas that are unforgiving. But then that kind of goes away if my claim to the purple crack is challenged.
Last edited by joenationwide; 10-23-2011 at 02:38 PM.
10-23-2011, 02:37 PM
#7
Safety Car
It is just as sketch in reality as it sounds on the internet. But we generally don't have enough to have our own run group, so it is better than nothing. We can still get a couple clean laps in at the start if we do the outlap properly (though noob's will gun it and ruin the session or else people coming out late will ruin it too).
10-23-2011, 02:51 PM
#8
It is just as sketch in reality as it sounds on the internet. But we generally don't have enough to have our own run group, so it is better than nothing. We can still get a couple clean laps in at the start if we do the outlap properly (though noob's will gun it and ruin the session or else people coming out late will ruin it too).
The logistics of the session will either make or break a TT session. Our TT sessions usually run really well as long as everyone gets gridded based on their previous times. But when a fast car gets gridded in the back (due to no clean time, or no time at all), that causes problems for everyone. Thats why if I don't have a good time posted when I get gridded, I ask to be gridded where I should be. (And by should I mean I have run that time before, not because I've driven 200mph on the Autobahn, in a Caterham, in the rain, in the dark).
One thing that hasn't worked for us, is a penalty we get for gridding late. They hold us until the last 5 min of the session. So you get 1-2 timed laps, in traffic with slower cars, and cars that are cooling down.
So I can imagine the frustration of running timed TT with HPDE4. Hopefully that will change before any significant problems occur. We need to get more interest in TT up North!
10-23-2011, 03:54 PM
#9
Drifting
You don't have to run with less equipment at a DE. Lots of pro race teams come out to chin events. I've been passed by Lou goulotti (sp) before in advanced. But, you can just as well be in a street car with minimal safety.
I think I understand now that TT run under vastly different rules on different tracks and with different organizers.
Running a TT at the same time as a DE seems like asking for trouble.
I do get the point that DE has to run with less equipment or the attendance would be too low to rent the track.
Also get that once you commit to TT you are doing A lot of events every year, more miles = more risk.
Thanks guys, any more?
Running a TT at the same time as a DE seems like asking for trouble.
I do get the point that DE has to run with less equipment or the attendance would be too low to rent the track.
Also get that once you commit to TT you are doing A lot of events every year, more miles = more risk.
Thanks guys, any more?
10-23-2011, 04:01 PM
#10
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The OP was describing SCCA TT or SoloI, where 1 or 2 or possibly 3 cars are on track a 1 time doing flying laps, more like NASCAR style single car qualifying. NASA TT is everyone on track, for 20min trying to get the best lap you can.
The folks that have been doing it for awhile are doing hand grenade laps on the ragged edge of throwing it into the fence on every corner. Full commitment, every inch of track and a half a tire in the grass and never lift. Entering corners so hot you think, "There's no way I'm making this" then making it through somehow. It didn't take many TT events for me to realize, this is a whole new level of pushing it. Some sessions you come back in the pits and your hands are shaking.
The folks that have been doing it for awhile are doing hand grenade laps on the ragged edge of throwing it into the fence on every corner. Full commitment, every inch of track and a half a tire in the grass and never lift. Entering corners so hot you think, "There's no way I'm making this" then making it through somehow. It didn't take many TT events for me to realize, this is a whole new level of pushing it. Some sessions you come back in the pits and your hands are shaking.
10-23-2011, 09:36 PM
#11
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The OP was describing SCCA TT or SoloI, where 1 or 2 or possibly 3 cars are on track a 1 time doing flying laps, more like NASCAR style single car qualifying. NASA TT is everyone on track, for 20min trying to get the best lap you can.
The folks that have been doing it for awhile are doing hand grenade laps on the ragged edge of throwing it into the fence on every corner. Full commitment, every inch of track and a half a tire in the grass and never lift. Entering corners so hot you think, "There's no way I'm making this" then making it through somehow. It didn't take many TT events for me to realize, this is a whole new level of pushing it. Some sessions you come back in the pits and your hands are shaking.
The folks that have been doing it for awhile are doing hand grenade laps on the ragged edge of throwing it into the fence on every corner. Full commitment, every inch of track and a half a tire in the grass and never lift. Entering corners so hot you think, "There's no way I'm making this" then making it through somehow. It didn't take many TT events for me to realize, this is a whole new level of pushing it. Some sessions you come back in the pits and your hands are shaking.
I went off twice this weekend in TT at CMP and one was on the warmup lap 
10-23-2011, 09:45 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
The folks that have been doing it for awhile are doing hand grenade laps on the ragged edge of throwing it into the fence on every corner. Full commitment, every inch of track and a half a tire in the grass and never lift. Entering corners so hot you think, "There's no way I'm making this" then making it through somehow.
Ask Khoi about me at VIR last year.
10-23-2011, 10:59 PM
#13
Racer
I've done a zillion DE sessions and have never been in any DE session that was even half the intensity of a full bore TT session with tires, contigency $$, and lap record beating fury on the line.
10-24-2011, 10:42 AM
#14
Le Mans Master
10-24-2011, 11:23 AM
#15
Le Mans Master
Safety should be equal for both. TT differs in that you are COMPETING and it WILL make you drive harder than your fastest HPDE you have ever done. I can say that I can do 100 fast laps in HPDE and be relatively calm. The minute I step up to the line to do a TT, my muscles tighten, my heart starts to race, and my senses become very heightened. It is a TOTALLY different feeling than HPDE (both physically and mentally).
Funny thing is, that initially you may run faster in HPDE as you are more relaxed, as once you are aware you are being timed for only 3-4 laps, you tend to get nervous and make mistakes. You try SO HARD to concentrate on NOT making mistakes, that you actually find yourself making more mistakes than if you just ran a normal HPDE session. This is where the additional potential danger lies.
After you have done a few, you learn to eventually relax, and allow your body and mind to go into auto pilot. You get into a place where all the training, practice and learning just becomes instinct, and you no longer have to think about hitting the apex, braking points, or shifting correctly, it just becomes a natural reflex. Only then do you start getting some really amazing lap times.
Funny thing is, that initially you may run faster in HPDE as you are more relaxed, as once you are aware you are being timed for only 3-4 laps, you tend to get nervous and make mistakes. You try SO HARD to concentrate on NOT making mistakes, that you actually find yourself making more mistakes than if you just ran a normal HPDE session. This is where the additional potential danger lies.
After you have done a few, you learn to eventually relax, and allow your body and mind to go into auto pilot. You get into a place where all the training, practice and learning just becomes instinct, and you no longer have to think about hitting the apex, braking points, or shifting correctly, it just becomes a natural reflex. Only then do you start getting some really amazing lap times.
10-24-2011, 11:50 PM
#20
Tech Contributor
For anyone who is turning serious laps, we are big believers in safety equipment: cage, fire suppression, cut-off-switches, fuel cell, full harness, nomex suit - at a minimum. Knowing that THE CAR is going to do its part when things go wrong actually ALLOWS the driver to push harder.
As several others have mentioned, I am fascinated by the diverse varieties of time trial formats! We have always viewed them as a hillclimb on a closed course – one car at a time against the clock – one or two hot laps, where you leave nothing on the table.
Ed LoPresti
As several others have mentioned, I am fascinated by the diverse varieties of time trial formats! We have always viewed them as a hillclimb on a closed course – one car at a time against the clock – one or two hot laps, where you leave nothing on the table.
Ed LoPresti