Cleonard

I have a '04 C5 Z06. First question is whether or not these are still competitive or should I trade it in on a C6 (or C6Z)? Second question is T1 v. STO. Since so much more is allowed in STO, does that help or hurt the aging C5Z? Budget isn't an issue, I can afford the mods and operating costs of both classes. And I am not concerned about winning, I just don't want to go out there and get spanked silly every weekend.

Colby

andy3101

The c5z is a great platform for STO. I'm sure guys will say to go NASA ST2. I have a 2002 Z06 in the STO class. Weather you run STO or t1 will determine how much you do to your car. Some differences for you to consider. STO is a head/ cam package and t1 is stock. STO is a coil over class where T1 uses leaf springs. (if not running triple adjustable shocks in T1 you have no chance) aero is allowed in STO.

If youn want to run near the top in T1 you need to spend some money, why not spend a bit more and be in a faster class with more upside. (I.e. motor triple adjustable shocks for T1 are 5000+, Pfadt double adjustable coil over for STO is 4980. Same money but now you have coil overs instead of leaf springs)

I would say if you want to race long term you convert to STO because the c5 in T1 is eligible for another year or two. (10 year rule may change)

I'm sure lots of opinions, but I looked at STO and T1 before I bought my STO. Decided on STO because it feels more like a race car to me than the T1 did. t1 felt like a street car on track instead of a race car on track. Same money for me to get into either class.

Olitho

I think STO cost to be competitive is way more than the cost to be competitive in T1. If you can afford to run STO go for it. It will be a blast.

I prefer T1. I like the fact the cars are largely stock. It keeps maintence and prep work a lot lighter in the paddock. When it comes down to it I am lazy. I just want to drive.

T1 can be run relatively inexpensively, but like almost every class to run up front you must spend some money. Winning Spec Miatas cost upwards of $50k with special motors, trannies, etc. The same goes for STO and T1.

C5s are not aged out of T1. That rule was dropped. I plan to continue racing my C5 in T1. It is a great car. It does good double duty in NASA ST-2 as well.

Racing class participation ranges from region to region. We have better T1 racing in SoCal than ST-2. In NorCal Redtopz prefers to come race with us in SoCal T1 as there are no other ST-2 cars to race with up there. Figure out who is best to race with in your region or whether you plan to race the Runoffs, etc.

Short-Throw

What is your racing experience?

What tracks do you plan to run at? I assume Central DIV based on your geographic claim in your sig?

If you don't care about winning, start in T1 and see if you like it. It's much easier turning a T1 car into an STO car, much harder the other way around. Having a budget not being a concern is great but you'll still need to run 2:16s or so at Road America if you go STO, low 20s for T1.

You're asking an awful lot of a C5 T1 car to keep up with the top qualifying times of late. I think you have a better chance of making your car more competitive in STO but it will take a lot more cash.


Mike

redtopz

I agree with Oli. I like the C5Z, I like SCCA, and I like T1. You can still be competitive and podium and even win in a C5 T1 car on the basic T1 package. My car is simple, but effective: stock LS6 with headers, T1 suspension package with GM sachs shocks, poly bushings, AP brakes in front stock in back. That's it and trust me this car is very fast and driver limited. There will be many expenses even in T1 with all the spare parts and tires you will go through. At the very top of the field where the drivers are all equal then a LS3 C6 will beat a C5Z with today's rules. The C5 will need more power to keep up on the straights. The bottom line though is finding a class with enough other racers to make it exciting. You need at least 5 regulars in your class to make it fun IMO and we have around 10 T1 guys in SoCal.

Bill

fatbillybob

I don't think that is true at all. A C5 T1 held the WSIR track record on sachs non-adjustble shocks for many years and was just broken this weekend by another C5 T1 car with the last few years of allowed upgrades. When that nonadjustable shock car ran our local races it was on the podium regularly. Two C6's in our group could not shake off the C5's but held on for wins at this weeks double national. I think winning in a C6 is easier than in a C5 assuming your C6 stays in one piece. We lost another C6 LS3 motor this weekend.

96CollectorSport

I would take a look at car counts, IMO that's what will make the racing more fun (class to class).
It seems like STO and T1 have lower car counts in the Mid-west. If you lived in Cali then you could run with those guys in T1 - they have a good group out there.
But in the Mid-west NASA ST-2 has a pretty good sized group - especially the Mid-Ohio weekends and the class is growing for sure.

Weather you pick STO or T1 you could still run with both SCCA and NASA - I think the STO/ NASA ST1 car is a more competitive package to go back and forth with. But if you're just out to have fun then it kind of doesn't matter.
But one thing is for sure a T1/ST2 car will require less maintenance than the STO/ST1 car. More power - more problems especially with C5's.

Short-Throw

True Joel but a loaded C5 T1 car is not competitive with a loaded ST2 car. Although you could go back in forth in SCCA-to-NASA (which I tried) it's not a simple turn key car you can drive to each event without adding or removing mods for the given classes. You don't mind because you're getting paid to do it every time!


Mike

63Corvette

I do not race either T1 or STO. However, if I were contemplating racing a modern car, I would contact Phoenix Racing and buy the current "best" car (that is regional or national champion) that was available. That will take YEARS off of your learning curve, relative to trying to build your own racecar from a C5 that you already own. It will also be much cheaper in the long run. It is imperativer that you get the "setup book" of suspension settings etc for each track where YOU are planning to race. I agree with all of the other advice above. These guys have been there and done that

96CollectorSport

Mike,
While I agree that a fully prepped ST2 car is faster than a T1 car set-up to run ST2 he stated that he wasn't concerned about winning. You didn't change your T1 car at all to run in ST2 and took a 3rd and 4th in those two races.
I was simply saying that if he wants to run some ST2 races that he would be able to do it and probably have some fun along the way. If he wanted to be more competitive then yes he would have to pick one or the other (or switch back and forth). But in my opinion a C5 doesn't really have a chance in T1 either -not at the Run-offs/Road America- sure Tom Sloe's C5 took 2nd at the Run-offs (and that is one heck of a C5) he couldn't even see Buttermore by the 3rd or 4th lap.
There are a lot of C5's out there and I think the cars that are set-up similar to the T1 spec are probably getting the most for there money.
A C5 with headers, suspension and brakes with a stock LS6 can be run several seasons without having to upgrade the driveline and rebuild every other year. It's just a good solid fast car and would be a nice car for a beginner to run to get there feet wet.

Short-Throw

I hear you.

Not caring about winning does not mean that you still don't want to have a competitive car out there that has a chance to win.

True, my car was not updated to the latest allowed mods and there are plenty of better drivers than me but I still always wanted to have a car that could win independant of my abilities, I just never put the expense into it. (That's what the other car (cash dumpster) is for. LOL)





Cloenard --redtopz said it best, find a class with competitors so you have somebody to race even if you're not the fastest. You're about 4 hours away from Autobahn CC where you can come check out a few T1 and STO cars. PM me if you're interested.


Mike

Olitho

This is the most perfect pair of sentences posted on this forum today. I will add that it is also a great car for a seasoned racer.

clubracer6

I went through this same decision process more than a few times and ended up going with NASA and any buying an ST2 knowing my car would not have a proper home in SCCA.*
*
If I lived in California, I would be racing SCCA T1 with Oli and his crew.
*
For me, it's not about track touring and more about having someone to run with and dice with.* I also like that I get at least two races at every NASA weekend, compared to 1 at SCCA National events.
*
Unless you have a GT1 Corvette, you are not going to find a class with SCCA that is heavily populated in the Midwest.* The June Sprints is a big CENDIV race and was the high water mark for T1, which had 4 cars - that were all over the place on lap times.* STO also had 4 cars.
*
4 cars was the smallest turn out we had with NASA in 2011 in ST2
April Autobahn - 7
Putnam -4
Gingerman - 5
July Autobahn - 8
July Mid-Ohio 10
aug- Mid-ohio 15!
If you want to race and not time trial in a Corvette, NASA is a no brainer.* And if budget is not an issue, you can have a car that can run with NASA in ST1 and SCCA in STO, which is something I am looking at for 2013.
*
Now my answer for your actual question is, a C6 is probably a better fit for SCCA long term for T1 and probably does not matter for STO.*
*
And yet another answer to something you didn't ask - usually cheaper to buy an existing race car.
*

Short-Throw

Great points Alex!

BuckeyeZ06

Not to hi-jack this thread, and I realize this is a Corvette site, but if the OP is interested, one of the best SCCA STO/NASA ST1 cars in the country is for sale at a very good price.

My 2006 Viper Gen 3 car can be had for $65,000. That's about what someone would pay to either buy a finished C6 T1 Vette and likely less to build one from scratch. It's also pretty reliable...

Just a thought...

Cleonard

I have a Gen III Viper also but its a vert so I didn't think it would make a good racer. Also I want to build it myself even if its cheaper to buy one ready to go. I love wrenching on my own cars and will take pride knowing the car I'm racing was built by me. I live in Indy so Putnam is the closest track to me. How can I find who is in what classes in different regions? Also, should I just stick with HPDE? I could do time trials and mods are less regulated.

Colby

Cleonard

I also decided to stick with racing the Vette because parts are much cheaper than the Viper or any of my European cars. ST2 allows you to build or even swap motors, right? What does ST1 allow?

Colby

96CollectorSport

NASA ST2 & ST1 have the same rule set just a different hp/wt limit.
For ST2 it's 8.7 to 1 and for ST1 it's 5.5 to 1
So for a 3200 lb car you could only make 367.8 rwhp for ST2 vs 581.6 rwhp for ST1.
There are some modification factors also but for the most part the hp/wt is really the only differance between the two NASA classes (besides the car counts typically being better for ST2).
You could always just bring the car out to a NASA weekend before you start to mod it, run HPDE and ask some questions. Plus you can try NASA on and see if you fit in.

Cleonard

OK, so if my C5Z makes 405hp stock at the crank and weighs right about 3200 it seems a perfect fit for ST2. Then I would just have to watch my power adders v. weight loss program to make sure I don't bump into ST1. From there the main focus is on brakes and suspension.

Colby

Cleonard

So if I set my sites on NASA ST2 what would be the ideal platform to start with? C6, Gen III Viper coupe (500hp), or something else?

Colby