cleanerPA

I'm on another forum where I got into a big debate with another member about safety equipment.

Here is the question:

Do you feel that it is safe to install 5/6-point harnesses and fixed back racing seats into your car without a rollbar or a rollcage?

Would you take your car to the track that way?

If you were in the passenger seat (as an instructor) would you feel safe that way?

If you were a safety tech for your club or organization, would you feel that this is an acceptable configuration?

I'm talking about hardtop cars, not convertibles.

From my point of view, this is very, very unwise- I would not install racing shells and harnesses without a rollbar. That's me. My mechanic and the other guys that are local to me that prep race cars agree with my point of view. But I'm also inclined to feel that you can never have too much safety equipment.

The other guy feels that it is safe to run this way. He quotes Joe Marko of HMS' comments in this forum below:
http://www.justracing.com/driver_saf...topic.php?p=90
He feels that this is an acceptable risk to him, although I feel that even Joe's comments in that forum don't jive with his point of view, note the second post by Joe Marko.

I'm very surprised by this guy's point of view, considering that he has wheel to wheel experience.

AU N EGL

As long as BOTH seats are race seats and5 or 6 point harness system with harness bar, YES

Harness systems can not wrap around a seat back but must go though the seat back.

This would be for HPDEs Not racing.

0HOXXOH.com

Personally, I feel if you're going to push your car to the limits in any activity that has the possiblility of rolling over, that a rollbar should be part of the safety equipment along with a harness.

I'm not just saying this because I sell rollbars either.

I also feel that rollbars should be directly connected to the frame for maximum effectiveness.

If you have an interest in rollbars for your C6 Coupe or Z06, check out these at www.hoxxoh.com

fatbillybob

the urban myth of no harness w/o rollbar was answered in your own cited thread by the most important person doin testing for gm racing, long time associate of hubbard from hans, and a biomed engineer john melvin.

he said: John Melvin (nationaly recognized independent racing safety expert) touched on this topic at the recent SCCA National Convention with basically the information above. As long as a 4, 5 , or 6 point belt is installed in COMPLETE complience with the manufacturers instructions you will be better off with such a harness in a rollover with or without a rollbar

cleanerPA

Thank you for the clarification.

0HOXXOH.com

Better off than what? Than without a harness?

rayk

Hmmm. I would certainly like to have better seats and a 5/6 point harness. I wouldn't mind a rollbar HOXXOX sells either. These cars are very fast. I have hit 155 on the long straight at BIR and go through turns 1 & 2 at 140 and 130 respectively.

I upgraded from a 1995 spec helmet to a SA2010 helmet this year along with driving shoes and gloves. Little more safety, little more grip on the wheel and pedals.

I also upgraded my skills at Spring Mountain.

The newer track at BIR is 2.5 mile 13 turn track with barriers close to the track. The long track is 3.1 miles and 10 turns and it's faster, but you are a lot further from hitting anything.

So the question is, with the stock seat, stock oem seatbelts, airbag system, is it really safe or should i upgrade with more safety equipment like seats, harness, rollcage?

Opinions?

Carolie97

I'm on another forum where I got into a big debate with another member about safety equipment.

stevensa

In almost every case a properly installed seat, harness, harness bar, AND HANS setup is better than the OEM seat/belt setup. This is with and without a rollbar. As far as feeling safe as an instructor, I honestly feel better with OEM seats/belt/aribags when riding in a students car. This is due to the fact that I have no idea how well the belts were installed, if they are at the proper angles for me, etc.

AU N EGL

For a racing, absolutely.

For track days / HPDEs yes one should. Now part of that challenge comes in

for the PAYING customer, it is THEIR CAR, THEIR SAFETY, THEIR LIFE.

by requiring roll cages for the use of harness systems, one significantly decreases those who will come and PAY for an event. and at $350 to $600 per person times 100 attendees. that is a signification amount of money

Keeping ppl 100% stock seats and DOT belts, on Stock tires, also decrees PAYING customers.

and consumers will just go to another event with less restrictions.

This may be were the compromise comes in by experience level.

stock seats and DOT harness and Stock tires in the Novice and beginner groups.

Now do you have any idea what it is like to tell some who just spent $100K for a new ZR1 and is spending $1000 / day ( $2500 for two days ) to come to your event, that they can NOT use a harness system, because it wraps around the back of stock ZR1 seats?

I have. I may not be very popular, But I have and will do it again.

2 GTOs

I'm sure nothing beats a full race prepped car for safety, but the path I have followed, and I think many others have is:

Novice - stock DOT stuff to see if you really like this

Intermediate - Race seat, harness, harness bar, Hans - Because now you are starting to push more. I get the whole "roll over protection" thing, but you are far more likely to have a serious impact without a roll over and that stuff will come in handy. One might argue that you are rolling the dice, but we do that every day in most everything we do. Roll overs happen, but I am sure far less than other impacts where you can benefit from a harness and hans.

Advanced - At this point you are probably really committed and doing this more frequently. Probably at, or near a full race set up.

I don't subscribe to the view of full race prep with cage, or stay with the DOT stuff. I think there is a point in the middle where you can benefit. Just make sure the harness is installed properly and I believe you should use a hans with a harness.

Just my point of view....

Bill32

Been there, done that, Tom including stock C4 seats.

What always happens at the track (or in a forum discussion) is when you ask the drivers "Have you read the rules?" , the answer 99% of the time is "No."

All drivers in PDX (Level 1) events may utilize factory/OEM restraints or a restraint harness meeting the specifications of section 12.1 in
lieu of the factory/OEM restraints.
A seven-point restraint harness is recommended for all events. Arm restraints are optional on all cars but recommended on all open
cars including open Targa tops, sunroofs and T-tops. The restraint system installation is subject to approval of the Chief Technical and
Safety Inspector.
12.1. RESTRAINT REQUIREMENTS
1. A four point restraint system, for use in enclosed automobiles only, may be employed where the driver is seated in an upright
position. Only 4 point restraints that incorporate a manufacturer designed method for prevention of submarining may be used.
Five, six or seven-point systems are highly recommended in all cars including automobiles where the driver is seated in an
upright position.
2. The material of all straps shall be Nylon or Dacron polyester and in new or perfect condition. The buckles shall be of metal to
metal quick release type except in the case of leg straps of the six-point or seven-point systems where they attach to the seat
belt or shoulder harness straps.
3. The shoulder harness shall be the over the shoulder type. There shall be a single release common to the seat belt and shoulder
harness. When mounting belts and harnesses it is recommended that they be kept as short as reasonably possible to minimize
stretch when loaded in an incident. The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and supported above a line drawn
downward from the shoulder point at an angle of twenty (20) degrees with the horizontal. The seat itself, or anything added only
to the seat shall not be considered a suitable guide. Guides must be a part of the roll cage or a part of the car structure. Only
separate shoulder straps are permitted. (“Y” type shoulder straps are not allowed.) “H” type configuration is allowed.
4. The single anti submarine strap of a five point system shall be attached to the floor structure and have a metal to metal
connection with the single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness.
5. The double leg straps of the six point or seven-point system may be attached to the floor as above for the five point system or be
attached to the seat belt so that the driver sits on them, passing them up between his or her legs and attaching either to the
single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness or attaching to the shoulder harness straps. It is also permissible
for the leg straps to be secured at a point common to the seat belt attachment to the structure, passing under the driver and up
between his or her legs to the seat belt release or shoulder harness straps. All straps shall be free to run through intermediate
loops or clamps/buckles.
6. Each seat (lap) and shoulder belt of the harness (4, 5, 6, or 7 points) shall have an individual mounting point (i.e. 2 for seat belt
and 2 for shoulder belt minimum). Six or seven point system antisubmarine straps may share a mounting point with one or both
seat (lap) belt(s). The minimum acceptable bolts used in the mounting of all belts and harnesses are SAE Grade 5. Where
possible, seat belt, shoulder harness, and anti submarine strap(s) should be mounted to the roll structure or frame of the car.
Where this is not possible, large diameter mounting washers or equivalent should be used to spread the load. Bolting through
aluminum floor panels, etc., is not acceptable.
7. All 4, 5, 6, and 7 point driver restraint systems shall meet one of the following:
SFI specification 16.1, or 16.5 FIA specification 8853/1985 including amendment 1/92 or FIA specifications 8853/98 and
8854/98.
A. Restraint systems meeting SFI 16.1 or 16.5 shall bear a dated SFI label. The certification indicated by this label shall expire
on December 31st of the 5th year after the date of manufacture as indicated by the label.
B. Restraint systems complying with FIA specification 8853/1985 including amendment 1/92 shall be no more than five (5) years
old. (Not all manufacturers are dating every belt in a set. They may be dating one of a pair of shoulder or lap belts or may only
be dating one belt in an entire set. Scrutineers are reminded that restraint systems need only one date label.)
C. Restraint systems homologated to FIA specifications 8853/98 and 8854/98 will not have a date of manufacture label. Instead
they will have a label containing the Manufacturer’s Name, Type of Harness Designation and Date of Expiration which is the
last day of the year marked. All straps in this FIA restraint system will have these labels. FIA restraint systems with the
certification ‘D ####.T/98’ are equal to FIA specifications 8853/98 and 8854/98, and are therefore, acceptable restraint
systems. FIA two-inch seat belts with the certification 8853/98 are acceptable restraint systems when used in conjunction with
their corresponding FIA shoulder harness and anti-submarine straps.
D. If a restraint system has more than one type of certification label, the label with the latest expiration may be used.
8. Harness Threading: Assemble in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions.
9. Certified nominal 2-inch shoulder harnesses are allowed when a head and neck restraint system meeting SFI 38.1 or FIA 8858
device is used by the driver. Should the driver, at anytime not utilize the dead and neck restraint device, the nomical 3-inch
shoulder harnesses is required.

GettReal

I went the safety route of a 6 pt welded roll bar + harnesses first, very quickly followed with race seats but my BIGGEST MISTAKE was getting into a harness without a head and neck restraint. I really thought I was so much safer in this configuration but didn't realize that I was probably worse off. It didn't click with me for over a year that my entire body was strapped in TIGHT and would not move, although my head was unsupported. There was another thread on here where someone mentioned in that configuration your head is a bobblehead. I imagined a collision and my body not moving at all... but my neck snapping under 10G's of force. I went out and bought a HNR ASAP.

So your original question, yes I would run a race seat and harness without a roll bar and feel safe BUT ONLY WITH a HANS, Defender Etc...

And some real world info, a very good friend of mine flipped/rolled his car 3 times at Watkins Glen landing on his roof. He was in a C6Z with race seats, harness and a HANS. The b-pillar support held up and he walked out of it fine. The A-pillar collapsed about 6".

JeremyGSU

Im an instructor with Chin and I track around 8-10 times per year with harness bar, race seat, and Hans. I realize a rollbar would help even more but you could also argue a cage is even better. Either way I feel safer and more in control than the stock setup. You move way too much in that thing.

0HOXXOH.com

Don't you feel safer with your rollbar than with just a harness bar? Or did you mean you're willing to take a bigger risk by not having a rollbar? It's well known the a-piller is weak, but if that b-pillar collapses your rollbar is your only remaining protection.

GettReal

I feel safer yes, but my car started life as a convertible that was converted to a fixed roof after I installed the roll bar. I think I would also feel safe with a race seat, harness, HANS and a harness bar. The B pillars are pretty strong.

AU N EGL

Also for most newbies, Safety items are low on their priority list.

I don't agree with this, but that is reality.

sperkins

Nope.

As I posted in another thread, but worth sharing again:

http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2011/...odi-dui-crash/

The Corvette’s driver was taken to the hospital with major injuries to her face and upper body.

rayk

That's was a convertable that was pancaked upside down. Would the coupe fair better? I hope so.