How do you like "Dynamic Run Group Assignment" for HPDE?
07-07-2012, 02:05 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
How do you like "Dynamic Run Group Assignment" for HPDE?
After attending a lot of HPDE events the last few years, I am seeing a lot of groups using the "Dynamic Run Group Assignment" method.
This has been especially more prevalent when driving with the Porsche, BMW and Audi clubs, among others.
The Dynamic Run Group Assignment allows for the HPDE event to sell out all of the slots available before run groups are assigned. For example, if there are 4 run groups with 30 slots available, then registration is open for 120 drivers, regardless of ability.
The run groups for drivers are then made based on the relative track experience of the drivers. Sometimes, the assignments are made on the day before the event.
IMO, there are positives and negatives.
Positives:
1. You register, and the acceptance is immediate, as long as slots are available.
2. The run groups are evenly balanced.
Negatives:
1. You may want to drive in the advanced group, but the organization may "bump" you down to a lower group. For me, I don't really mind driving in the intermediate group (it makes me look faster!)
2. Sometimes I get the feeling that the club plays favorites for their own members.
I am sure there are other considerations, but I am still "on the fence" about this method.
Chime in, let me know about your experience and what you think.
This has been especially more prevalent when driving with the Porsche, BMW and Audi clubs, among others.
The Dynamic Run Group Assignment allows for the HPDE event to sell out all of the slots available before run groups are assigned. For example, if there are 4 run groups with 30 slots available, then registration is open for 120 drivers, regardless of ability.
The run groups for drivers are then made based on the relative track experience of the drivers. Sometimes, the assignments are made on the day before the event.
IMO, there are positives and negatives.
Positives:
1. You register, and the acceptance is immediate, as long as slots are available.
2. The run groups are evenly balanced.
Negatives:
1. You may want to drive in the advanced group, but the organization may "bump" you down to a lower group. For me, I don't really mind driving in the intermediate group (it makes me look faster!)
2. Sometimes I get the feeling that the club plays favorites for their own members.
I am sure there are other considerations, but I am still "on the fence" about this method.
Chime in, let me know about your experience and what you think.
07-07-2012, 02:25 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
Sounds like a bad idea. If you have safer/faster drivers they should run with safer/faster drivers, otherwise their fun is limited by running in a lower group.
07-07-2012, 02:30 PM
#3
Drifting
Thread Starter
The groups are all assigned in order to match safer/faster drivers in groups of similar ability.
The same thing is done in the traditional HPDEs, but it is done on the front end.
Last edited by NVR2L8; 07-07-2012 at 03:08 PM.
07-07-2012, 03:23 PM
#4
Drifting
"For me, I don't really mind driving in the intermediate group (it makes me look faster!)"
Running in the advance group has a lot more, or should have, to do with the experience level and traffic flow/management so that most of the drivers know how to prevent a situation rather than create one.
Additionally, it is rare that someone can't attend because their needed group is full and other groups are empty ... just have not really seen much of them.
07-07-2012, 03:54 PM
#5
Drifting
Thread Starter
I disagree and also think it is a bad idea. Just because you are fast does not mean you have a clue what's going on, situation awareness, or what is "about" to happen. That is called judgment and comes only with a LOT of experience. This is in line with your comment:
"For me, I don't really mind driving in the intermediate group (it makes me look faster!)"
Running in the advance group has a lot more, or should have, to do with the experience level and traffic flow/management so that most of the drivers know how to prevent a situation rather than create one.
Additionally, it is rare that someone can't attend because their needed group is full and other groups are empty ... just have not really seen much of them.
"For me, I don't really mind driving in the intermediate group (it makes me look faster!)"
Running in the advance group has a lot more, or should have, to do with the experience level and traffic flow/management so that most of the drivers know how to prevent a situation rather than create one.
Additionally, it is rare that someone can't attend because their needed group is full and other groups are empty ... just have not really seen much of them.
Consider this ... If there are 120 drivers registered for an event and they are perfectly ranked by ability, etc., then it would make sense that each run group would be arranged for the best match of drivers at each level.
Traditional HPDE ... Advanced group usually fills up first, as the sponsor makes a decision based driver resume and the requested group (until it is filled), and then allows the drivers to sign up for whatever group still has openings.
In this case, there could be some strong drivers in the intermediate group that far exceed the weaker drivers in the advanced group.
... Just food for thought.
07-07-2012, 05:05 PM
#6
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Dynamic has a lot of merit. And, as is usually the case, depends upon the particular group that shows up that day. In the NCM event case the vehicles are all HP cars. But, most promoters bring in every marque running on the streets and it can get interesting. If I were a promoter and renting the track for the weekend, I would vote dynamic. 
07-07-2012, 08:23 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
Our beginner groups sell out first and the numbers are instructor participation dependent as well as how many cars we are comfortable with on track at the same time for a given venue. The example I would use there is Watkins Glen supports more cars on track per session than does the Pocono North course.
My question for you would be what happens when you have 70 beginners that sign up and need instructors and only 15 instructors?
My question for you would be what happens when you have 70 beginners that sign up and need instructors and only 15 instructors?
07-07-2012, 09:46 PM
#8
Drifting
Thread Starter
Our beginner groups sell out first and the numbers are instructor participation dependent as well as how many cars we are comfortable with on track at the same time for a given venue. The example I would use there is Watkins Glen supports more cars on track per session than does the Pocono North course.
My question for you would be what happens when you have 70 beginners that sign up and need instructors and only 15 instructors?
My question for you would be what happens when you have 70 beginners that sign up and need instructors and only 15 instructors?
IMO, I think that the number of novice drivers (ones that need instructors) must be limited to the number of instructors that are anticipated to attend. At the recent NCM VIR event, many instructors had two students. Not ideal, but it worked.
I also think that most groups, especially clubs, have a pretty good idea of their instructor base. I am sure that instructor development is an on-going challenge for HPDE sponsors, even NASA.
07-07-2012, 11:12 PM
#9
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The better organized clubs don't seem to have an issue with assigning people to run groups before the event. The run groups are based on ability and a fairly long history of each driver's capabilities and attitude. BMW club requires all level of drivers to have instructors with groups like the new A Solo drivers only needing one session with an instructor over a two day event. As an instructor when I tell the Chief Instructor a person should be moved to a higher run group or demoted based on his abilities it is a lot easier to be able to make that recommendation if there is a standard by which I can make the judgement.
Bill
Bill
07-08-2012, 01:10 AM
#10
Drifting
I guess I would say that I would like to know what run group I'm in before the time and expense of getting to the event. At BIR, they combine the intermediate and advanced groups in the afternoon sessions. Even though the corner workers are good about throwing the Blue flag, you still get held up quite a bit at times.
One of the best mods I did was spend the money going to Spring Mountain for 3 days of instruction and driving. Not saying I'm fast or good, just comfortable with the advanced group. I still make mistakes, but usually can recognize them sooner and react better.
It's not just the skill level in the different groups, but the cars tend to be faster in the advanced group. Race cars, exotics.
So if someone isn't happy about the group assignment, can they get their money refunded?
One of the best mods I did was spend the money going to Spring Mountain for 3 days of instruction and driving. Not saying I'm fast or good, just comfortable with the advanced group. I still make mistakes, but usually can recognize them sooner and react better.
It's not just the skill level in the different groups, but the cars tend to be faster in the advanced group. Race cars, exotics.
So if someone isn't happy about the group assignment, can they get their money refunded?
07-08-2012, 11:26 AM
#12
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I know first hand that safety, experience, awareness, etc. are considered BEFORE speed when making group assignments. Our group assignments (BMW Club Quebec) are "dynamic" in that they are relative to the people who register for a particular event, but it usually ends up with the same people in the same groups.
There is no "favoritism", it's just that if we know our own members better (obviously the case) then we have more confidence assigning them to a more experienced run group if we think they have what it takes, as opposed to somebody we don't know as well, or at all.
Rayk, your comments worry me. Why would you be worried about the specific run group you're assigned to? If a bunch of pro drivers signed up and filled up the advanced group, would you feel slighted by being "bumped down" to intermediate? It's all relative to the skill of the drivers attending, which can vary quite a bit from one club/organization to the next. There should be no ego at play here, "I am ADVANCED and I want my money back because I was assigned to the INTERMEDIATE group. I drove 200mph on the Autobahn, in a Caterham, and I have a Koenigsegg and a ZR1..." well, you know the rest.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. If point-bys or passing rules are adhered to by all (which also entails no egos getting in the way), there should be no problem with traffic.
Mixing group is a bit different as speed differentials are usually instantly greater and it takes a while for the slower guys to adjust, but then you're balancing that effect with the additional track time afforded to everyone by mixing the groups.
Personally, I rather like it when there's a bunch of cars on track. Compromises my ultimate lap time, but as I am not on track to be recruited by Red Bull F1 (never seen them lurking in the bushes at our events), the fun factor of playing with my track friends is much higher. Going 'round and 'round gets boring.
Obviously the number of beginner or intermediate students is limited by 1) the limit on number of cars on track (limiting group size) and 2) the number of instructors signing up (limiting the number of non-solo students).
By the way, I'd like to take the opportunity to make an open invitation for any instructor with experience to contact me if they'd like to run with us. We host events at the Circuit Mont Tremblant track north of Montreal and always have a great time, and we would like to have a bigger pool of instructors to call upon.
There is no "favoritism", it's just that if we know our own members better (obviously the case) then we have more confidence assigning them to a more experienced run group if we think they have what it takes, as opposed to somebody we don't know as well, or at all.
Rayk, your comments worry me. Why would you be worried about the specific run group you're assigned to? If a bunch of pro drivers signed up and filled up the advanced group, would you feel slighted by being "bumped down" to intermediate? It's all relative to the skill of the drivers attending, which can vary quite a bit from one club/organization to the next. There should be no ego at play here, "I am ADVANCED and I want my money back because I was assigned to the INTERMEDIATE group. I drove 200mph on the Autobahn, in a Caterham, and I have a Koenigsegg and a ZR1..." well, you know the rest.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. If point-bys or passing rules are adhered to by all (which also entails no egos getting in the way), there should be no problem with traffic.
Mixing group is a bit different as speed differentials are usually instantly greater and it takes a while for the slower guys to adjust, but then you're balancing that effect with the additional track time afforded to everyone by mixing the groups.
Personally, I rather like it when there's a bunch of cars on track. Compromises my ultimate lap time, but as I am not on track to be recruited by Red Bull F1 (never seen them lurking in the bushes at our events), the fun factor of playing with my track friends is much higher. Going 'round and 'round gets boring.
Obviously the number of beginner or intermediate students is limited by 1) the limit on number of cars on track (limiting group size) and 2) the number of instructors signing up (limiting the number of non-solo students).
By the way, I'd like to take the opportunity to make an open invitation for any instructor with experience to contact me if they'd like to run with us. We host events at the Circuit Mont Tremblant track north of Montreal and always have a great time, and we would like to have a bigger pool of instructors to call upon.
07-08-2012, 01:26 PM
#13
Drifting
I know first hand that safety, experience, awareness, etc. are considered BEFORE speed when making group assignments. Our group assignments (BMW Club Quebec) are "dynamic" in that they are relative to the people who register for a particular event, but it usually ends up with the same people in the same groups.
There is no "favoritism", it's just that if we know our own members better (obviously the case) then we have more confidence assigning them to a more experienced run group if we think they have what it takes, as opposed to somebody we don't know as well, or at all.
Rayk, your comments worry me. Why would you be worried about the specific run group you're assigned to? If a bunch of pro drivers signed up and filled up the advanced group, would you feel slighted by being "bumped down" to intermediate? It's all relative to the skill of the drivers attending, which can vary quite a bit from one club/organization to the next. There should be no ego at play here, "I am ADVANCED and I want my money back because I was assigned to the INTERMEDIATE group. I drove 200mph on the Autobahn, in a Caterham, and I have a Koenigsegg and a ZR1..." well, you know the rest. I wouldn't be slighted if the pro drivers filled up the advanced group. It's not cheap to run HPDE's or invest in your furthering your driving skills by attending schools. That's been discussed. I was thinking I shouldn't post anything because I thought this might lead to comments like this. I'm not mr ego and just work hard at whatever I do and generally don't even drive my vette as it attracts too much attention, instead I drive my 6 year old pickup. That said, I study and work on my driving skills so I can be a good driver and want the opportunity to push myself on the track, not be continually waiting for point bys. I bought a Mustang GT in 2004 and slowly built it up to handle better and run faster( suspension, brakes, supercharger, coolers). I attended a lot of events locally and within NASA. A lot of people buy fast cars and don't want instruction, they just want to drive. Usually means they are pretty slow on the track. Another way to look at it, is if I wanted to sign up for the advanced group and it was full, I may or may not sign up for the intermediate group depending on what I know about the event. I'm not made of money and don't want to commit to an event where I don't enjoy it. .
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. If point-bys or passing rules are adhered to by all (which also entails no egos getting in the way), there should be no problem with traffic. BIR has a fast section and slow section. You can sit and wait behind a slow car for 6-7 turns on the slow section. If it gets too bad, I just pull off and go relax. Most of the video's posted here don't have many cars on the track. So point by's probably aren't a problem. Also, when BIR is running the long track, speeds are high and if your running fast through a sweeper and someone is running 40-50 mph slower, your coming up on them way fast and have to unbalance the car to brake or drive around them. I was at Autobahn (I think it was the south course) with NASA a few years ago and the track was packed. I was more worried about hitting another car then driving the track. Maybe I just don't like a huge amount of traffic. I'm glad this subject was posted so I know more about it.
Mixing group is a bit different as speed differentials are usually instantly greater and it takes a while for the slower guys to adjust, but then you're balancing that effect with the additional track time afforded to everyone by mixing the groups. Everyone should have the opportunity to grow. I totally agree.
Personally, I rather like it when there's a bunch of cars on track. Compromises my ultimate lap time, but as I am not on track to be recruited by Red Bull F1 (never seen them lurking in the bushes at our events), the fun factor of playing with my track friends is much higher. Going 'round and 'round gets boring. Playing with my friends on the track is what's fun. Otherwise it is boring. Totally agree. We have a good time bs'ing and giving each other crap.
Obviously the number of beginner or intermediate students is limited by 1) the limit on number of cars on track (limiting group size) and 2) the number of instructors signing up (limiting the number of non-solo students).
By the way, I'd like to take the opportunity to make an open invitation for any instructor with experience to contact me if they'd like to run with us. We host events at the Circuit Mont Tremblant track north of Montreal and always have a great time, and we would like to have a bigger pool of instructors to call upon.
There is no "favoritism", it's just that if we know our own members better (obviously the case) then we have more confidence assigning them to a more experienced run group if we think they have what it takes, as opposed to somebody we don't know as well, or at all.
Rayk, your comments worry me. Why would you be worried about the specific run group you're assigned to? If a bunch of pro drivers signed up and filled up the advanced group, would you feel slighted by being "bumped down" to intermediate? It's all relative to the skill of the drivers attending, which can vary quite a bit from one club/organization to the next. There should be no ego at play here, "I am ADVANCED and I want my money back because I was assigned to the INTERMEDIATE group. I drove 200mph on the Autobahn, in a Caterham, and I have a Koenigsegg and a ZR1..." well, you know the rest. I wouldn't be slighted if the pro drivers filled up the advanced group. It's not cheap to run HPDE's or invest in your furthering your driving skills by attending schools. That's been discussed. I was thinking I shouldn't post anything because I thought this might lead to comments like this. I'm not mr ego and just work hard at whatever I do and generally don't even drive my vette as it attracts too much attention, instead I drive my 6 year old pickup. That said, I study and work on my driving skills so I can be a good driver and want the opportunity to push myself on the track, not be continually waiting for point bys. I bought a Mustang GT in 2004 and slowly built it up to handle better and run faster( suspension, brakes, supercharger, coolers). I attended a lot of events locally and within NASA. A lot of people buy fast cars and don't want instruction, they just want to drive. Usually means they are pretty slow on the track. Another way to look at it, is if I wanted to sign up for the advanced group and it was full, I may or may not sign up for the intermediate group depending on what I know about the event. I'm not made of money and don't want to commit to an event where I don't enjoy it. .
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. If point-bys or passing rules are adhered to by all (which also entails no egos getting in the way), there should be no problem with traffic. BIR has a fast section and slow section. You can sit and wait behind a slow car for 6-7 turns on the slow section. If it gets too bad, I just pull off and go relax. Most of the video's posted here don't have many cars on the track. So point by's probably aren't a problem. Also, when BIR is running the long track, speeds are high and if your running fast through a sweeper and someone is running 40-50 mph slower, your coming up on them way fast and have to unbalance the car to brake or drive around them. I was at Autobahn (I think it was the south course) with NASA a few years ago and the track was packed. I was more worried about hitting another car then driving the track. Maybe I just don't like a huge amount of traffic. I'm glad this subject was posted so I know more about it.
Mixing group is a bit different as speed differentials are usually instantly greater and it takes a while for the slower guys to adjust, but then you're balancing that effect with the additional track time afforded to everyone by mixing the groups. Everyone should have the opportunity to grow. I totally agree.
Personally, I rather like it when there's a bunch of cars on track. Compromises my ultimate lap time, but as I am not on track to be recruited by Red Bull F1 (never seen them lurking in the bushes at our events), the fun factor of playing with my track friends is much higher. Going 'round and 'round gets boring. Playing with my friends on the track is what's fun. Otherwise it is boring. Totally agree. We have a good time bs'ing and giving each other crap.
Obviously the number of beginner or intermediate students is limited by 1) the limit on number of cars on track (limiting group size) and 2) the number of instructors signing up (limiting the number of non-solo students).
By the way, I'd like to take the opportunity to make an open invitation for any instructor with experience to contact me if they'd like to run with us. We host events at the Circuit Mont Tremblant track north of Montreal and always have a great time, and we would like to have a bigger pool of instructors to call upon.