DansBlkonBlkZ06

Here is what a Hoosier R6 tire failure will do to your car. I bought a set of used R6s that appeared to have plenty of tread left. I heard the R6would be a good tire for Charlotte Motor Speedway this weekend. I ran the recommended pressures with 4 psi higher in the right side (39 psi hot right and 35 psi hot left). During the 5th session of the day I felt a vibration the lap before it blew. I was coming off Turn 4 at about 120 mph when it blew. The guy behind me in an M3 said my quarter panel exploded into 100 pieces.
After further review of the carnage, I discovered the tire date was 2008. The other tires weren't as old.
A few lessons learned: (1) Check the tire dates before you buy, (2) You have no idea how many heat cycles a used tire has, even if the tread looks good, (3) If you feel a vibration, go ahead and pit in immediately to check it out.

The good thing about this is that I wasn't in Turn 3 when this happened...

Has anyone had this happen to them? How old of a tire is too old? I guess 4 years is pushing it. Does anyone have a right front quarter panel they want to unload?

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/a...Z06/photo3.jpg
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/a...Z06/photo2.jpg

rayk

Wow. Thanks for posting. I'm real close to ording a new set of R6's.

Falcon

I had a Hoosier A6 break a belt in T3 last year at CMS, during a race, and the vibrations was terrible. Luckily, I pulled in before it blew.

Here's what it looks like before blowing:

Falcon

Ebay is your friend.

Gary2KC5

I had this happen in June @ RA with a right on Sat. and then a left on Sun. Both were from different sets of tires.

brkntrxn

Dan,

I hate that this happened to you. I definitely feel that the tire was old and that is why it shredded. If I remember correctly from when I looked at your tire, it was from the 44th week of 2008.

You know how many Hoosier As and Rs and NT01s I have run around Charlotte at 140mph through T3 and T4 without issues. You ran the exact same air pressures I run (from my recommendation), so the only thing that explains it is the age of the tire.

brkntrxn

BTW, call Morris and see who he got his panels from a couple of years ago when he hit the wall at VIR. It was some used Vette place out in Arizona.

DansBlkonBlkZ06

Morris gave me the name Corvette Recycling. They had used quarter panels for $299 (in red only). I checked another site that manufactures replacement quarter panels unpainted but with gelcoat for $149 (not sure of quality). I'll check with Gene at GMPartshouse tomorrow. With a plastic wheel well, this repair won't be as bad as I thought. I looked at the Corvette service manual and the install looks like a simple DIY (4 or 5 beers maybe). You gotta love fiberglass parts. I'll be back in the saddle by Sept. at VIR!

Timz06

I've run plenty of old tires and never had a problem. I've got a pile of 2004 date codes A5's in the basement.

You guys are screwing around at a Nascar track where the penalties for error are very high! Be glad it wasn't worse. I also have to think that banking is not good for tires. Maybe save the old ones for safer tracks?

Tim

dizwiz24

I am a tire engineer who works for a major tire manufacturer. The company I work for does not assign a specific tire age limit to the tires we sell - for any usage. Rather we give an 'it depends' answer.

There are many other factors, other than tire age, that are going to influence the longetivity of a tire.

First off, lets discuss what happened...

You had some kind of internal separation of the tires components in the tread / belt area. These most likely were the result of, not one instance of damage, but multiple instances of tread / belt separation. Unfortunately, the separations 'connected' when you were running the tire, causing a failure. You said the tires were used. They could have been ran underinflated (popular for drag racing). Underinflation is what usually causes these separations. A manufacturing defect can also cause those too.

Usually there is a top 'nylon' overlay which keeps the belts 'buttoned' down at high speeds. I dont work for Hoosier, so I dont know if that tire has a spiral overlay. You can tell if it does, by looking at the tire sidewall. It will say something like: Tread: 2 plies steel, 1 polyester + 1 nylon. 2 steel is saying it has 2 steel belts in the tread area. 1 polyester mean the carcass is polyester (the carcass ply extends down into the sidewall area and wraps around the bead). If it has a 3rd category such as: 1 nylon (sometimes aramid or rayon is also used), then yes, it has a spiral overlay to keep the belt buttoned down at high speeds.

High speed failure modes of tires without an 'overlay' is often very catastrophic. To be honest, ever since the 2001, most tires are now coming with an overlay of some sort.

Some things you can do to extend the life of a new tire:

Number 1: Inflate with nitrogen vs. air. This will cause less oxidation of the rubber in the critical belt edge / belt area. Believe it or not, the tires air pressure forces air molecules (containing oxygen) through the tire and through the belt edge. The heat / stress, and net flow of oxygen etc. causes oxidation in that area. That belt edge is constantly wiggling up (towards hub) (when that part is contact the road), and then that same part wiggles down (towards fenderwell) when its it the top of its travel. So there is a lot of stress there.

Number 2: Tire internals: If you have a tire in question (many heat cycles, hot laps, etc.) that you are planning on using for some insane high speed, life-risking event.... You need to get that tire shearographed. This is like an x-ray of the tire that looks for trapped air pockets that are a result of a separation. Any Bandag or Michelin tire retreader (truck tires) will have that equipment. Goodyear wingfoot retreaders does not (scary, they give the rest of the retread industry a bad name). You'll have to buddy up with someone there to get them to check out a tire for you, but I imagine you may have success and only a small fee to get them to check out a tire for you.

Number 3: external inspection. Inspect your tires inside and out. Roll it around on the floor and look for any buldges, divots, spots of unusual tread wear, etc. Anything unusual? Dont run it.

Number 4: dismount/remounts with outsides facing inside, etc. Im sure a lot of you do that anyways for tire wear you would get at extreme camber. All that negative camber is not good on the belt edge, and the best you can do is even it out so that each side gets 50/50 of all that stress .

Number 5: tire pyrometer, heat measurements. Any time you are messing around with a new tire, or new suspension config (ex. more negative camber, etc), you should be taking tire temps (both shoulders, the instant you pit) and comparing to a known 'baseline'.

In reality, I suspect the real answer why the company I work for doesnt give a tire age limit is because we want to protect our dealers (both company owned and independant) from liability. That said, I would not think a 2008 DOT tire, used and stored properly, would be 'too old' to use. I think the tire you had was abused (underinflation) or had a rare manufacturing defect(ex. contamination between belts when it was built and it didnt 'vulcanize' together properly.)

Again, shearography can detect either issue. Good luck.

dizwiz24

As I look closer at your pictures, I see pieces of overlay material sticking straight out. So yes, you had an overlay and still had an issue.

dizwiz24

This is tread chunking and is the usual (and preferred) mode of failure for a tire with an overlay to keep belts intact.

(ie. when you hear pieces of the tread coming off and hitting your fenderwells, you should slow down! )

WNeal

Saw the exact same thing happen at Mid Ohio last week. Destroyed rear quarter panel as well

varkwso

Tim driving is always an insane and life threatening event.

I find 2008 tires make good tree swings or catfish homes.

varkwso

Vette nuts is also another good southeast source.

JDIllon

I talked to Hoosier and Tire Rack about the dates, and they say that as long as they are stored properly, there is no shelf life on tires.
I had a the same thing that Jody had happen, a broken belt on a front Hoosier at VIR/NCM last week. JD

Painrace

You guys got a lot more guts than me running a 4 year old tire!

Jim

Z06Tracker

I Don't what causes this, but I Don't think it was a rare defect. We had two tires that looked like the one Falcon posted pics of and one that blew like Dan's. I know of two others that did that last year also.

Dan, I will help with be repair if you want. Also, try Gary at Corvette Pros in Charlotte and Craig's list.

SouthernSon

Bill, what tire was Sam running last year that did this same thing?

BERETTA

My oldest R6's are Nov. 09, about 12 heat cycles I was thinking of using them for practice next weekend.
Where do we draw the line on the date?
These recent failures have me concerned.