Solofast

Thoughts about the proposed SCCA revamped stock class allowances??

Here's the explanation... http://www.solomatters.com/2013/03/s...sal-explained/

This is huge difference in allowances, not the least of which is the change from R comps to 140 at first and then 200 treadwear tires.

froggy47

You would think someone at national level would take a lesson from PCA and suggest trying a "points" system. So many points for shocks, so may for bars, so many CAI etc. You stay under xx points you run stock (street) class. OK maybe the dot r's can go to higher classes.

Solofast

When all the cars are the same it's relatively easy to do a points thing, and that approach has been around since I was a kid running with Equipe Rapide in Boca in 1968. Not sure how it well it works with different cars but we did use it in those days.

Solofast

When the Street Prepared classes were first conceived the idea that was promoted was that this new group of classes would reach out to the great unwashed masses of cars that were slightly modified from stock but weren't competitive with the gutted ex-race cars in the prepared classes.

Problem was it didn't work. All that happened is that the prepared classes pretty much died and the allowances in SP were so generous that you needed a full race suspension (stiffer springs, shocks and huge sway bars) to be competitive. But cars set up like that would punish anyone foolish enough to run them on the street, so these ended up being basically prepared cars with the interior left in and a stock block motor....

This same old song is being used to promote the increase in allowances in the new "street" classes...

Unfortunately they are floating unlimited sway bar modifications in the new "street" classes.

Now, if you have unlimited sway bars allowed, but no spring changes, a few cars (and everyone else that wants to be competitive will have to follow) will go to massive bars to control body roll. Since these will be dedicated solo cars the owners won't care about streetability, they will just go that way and the rest of the cars in the class that are street driven won't be competitive.

This is precisely what happened in SP (where you can do springs too), and you can't really drive a properly set up SP car on the street unless you wear a kidney belt.

The reason that for the last 40 years or so they didn't allow unlimited sway bars in stock was that allowing one bar meant you could tune the car, but you couldn't stiffen the crap out of it with huge bars and make the car undriveable on the street.

They need to keep the "one end only" sway bar allowance or they will kill the entire category.

JMHO of course, but I've been running in stock for over 30 years and seen a lot of things come and go.

mountainbiker2

So are they saying in 2014 I have to run 140 treadwear tires on my Super Stock Corvette? If I want to run R Comps that puts me in a modified class?

thanks,

Steve A.

Solofast

No, you will be able to run R compound tires in Street Prepared.

There is no plan to take the R compound tires out of that category.

mr.beachcomber

If the proposal passes, running R-compounds on your current SS Vette would bump you to Super Street Modified (SSM) in 2014. (You can run slicks in the Prepared and Modified classes so R-compounds there aren't such a big deal or as competitive.)

froggy47

Good Point.

93Rubie

Its going to shake things up for sure.

I saw the Road Tire classes as a test for doing what they are going to do to Stock class.

I personally think it is a good idea, overall. I run street tires for the affordability plus they don't mask mistakes like R-comps do.
I think Solofast, has an excellent point on the sway bars. Roll stiffness is roll stiffness, folks will get it anyway they can.

The idea of stock class should be as close to "stock" as possible. If a street class then the cars have to be "streetable." R-comps are not STOCK. A street tire makes more sense. The current SS crop especially the Corvettes are going to have a hard time against Lotus products and such. High HP and street tires don't mix well.

I expect to see all the classing get moved around. The C4 is very old but might have an advantage in BS with its wide tires over the skinnier ones of the S2000. That is a BIG maybe.

Given the current rule set MOST Nationally Competitive STOCK class cars are NOT streetable at all. Alignment settings and things are WAY too aggressive.

From an affordability standpoint, the current ST class folks are buying new tires and shaving them. I wish I had money to **** away like that.

I fully expect many to switch classes and run SP classes.

Z06trackman

I applaud the new formula for the Stock classes. I have been waiting for the elimination of soft tires since not long after I started in the early 80s. We argued about whether soft compund rubber belonged in Stock back then too. Now with supersoft, super heat cycle sensitive A6s the cost of tires (2 sets per year) has gotten ridiculous. (I now run the street tire category, and I still have fun driving at the limit even though the limit is lower) I don't even want to talk about $4k for shocks. Fixing the chamber problem is a great idea to open up the number of cars that might be competitive, and this has the benefit of longer tire life. While I was nervous about running my C5Z with 2 degrees of chamber on the street, I found wear to be OK if I was careful maintaining zero toe. Allowing a small wheel diameter change makes a lot of sense as wheels can be relatively cheap and you only need to buy them once.

I agree with Solofast that keeping the limitation of one sway bar change is still appropriate. Perhaps the SEB will come to realize this too.

MeHurricane

While I like the thought of the street class proposal for lower HP cars, I don't see anything over 400hp and 3000 lbs enjoying running on street tires. It seems that the ST class makers know it also that is why there isn't a class for a Z06 or P cars in ST? I spent the last few years mostly in ST and what i learned is that the street tires really favor the lighter cars. I am hoping that maybe they can allow some classes like SS, AS, and maybe FS to still be on R comps. This is my 20th year auto crossing and traveling to compete at nats and I finally have a car with great HP and now they want to take my traction away... :-(
Glen aka Hurricane
2004 Z06

talon95

Welcome to the class Glen. SS really is assembling an amazing group of drivers.

I'm not sure what to do with this. I don't want to see SS get hosed either. Although I agree with others that A6's are way too expensive to run in stock class. Rock and a hard place. I've been running street tires regionally, and A6's otherwise to save some money. The car really isn't that bad on them, but I think with the classing (Lotus/GT3), the Vettes would not be very competitive on 140+ tires.

Dave G.

greendot

Excellent point Manny, but won't the all out competitors still use the shock allowance to get all the roll stiffness they want and destroy the street worthiness of the car?

Solofast

I don't think so Bruce. I've run crazy stiff shocks and it didn't make the car fast. That is, the car was faster with proper valving than it was by going overly stiff. That was a very expensive ($800) lesson in shock valving.

Larry and I put shocks that were way too stiff on the Z when I first got it and it wasn't fast. After I struggled with if for a good amount of time I finally gave up and sent the DA's back to Koni and got them revalved and it was not only more comfortable, it was faster.

I'm not saying that you aren't going to give up some comfort for speed, but fast isn't horribly uncomfortable. Get the shocks set right for compression relative to the spring rate, and adjust rebound to where it is right for the track, and then back off a couple of sweeps of rebound for the street and readjust when you change tires is the way I'm doing it. It's firm, but not kidney belt stiff as a daily driver.

I did the same thing with my single adjustables on the C4, I used to crank in additional stiffness on the track and unwind some stiffness for the street, and it was very liveable. I ran the Bilstein Corvette Challenge shocks on the C4 when I first got it, and those were ungodly stiff, but the car was faster and won a national championship on Koni's that I could turn down enough to drive every day.

As you well know, I've never had a dedicated trailered race car. I've had a trailer for a while and took cars to Nationals on a trailer, but every car I've ever had has been driven on the street regularly, not just too and from events, but the've been daily drivers too. I believe a stock class car should be a street car too, and that's the way I've always done it.

Besides, can't they do that now with the present rules???

JMHO but crazy stiff didn't work for me.

Solofast

I was seeing some chatter on the SCCA board about not having enough grip for a C5Z with street tires and folks just going around spinning their wheels (both figuratively and actually).

Any thoughts about putting power down with a 140 rated tire??? (and sorry, C4's don't count, they don't have enough power)...

Also not sure if there's a need to go all the way to a 200 tire like they are proposing. If I could get 200 runs out of a 140 rated tire, that's probably good enough.

Does anybody have an experience with either 140 or 200 rated tires and that level of grip and can lend some experience here would be instructive.

Solofast

I agree that classing has to be revisited with a change like this. Lighter cars that maintain speed won't be hurt nearly as much as heavier cars.

A long time ago they used to class cars not just by times, but by similarity. That is, big heavy fast cars were in different classes than light nimble cars. A stock had small nimble fast cars (various Loti). B stock had bigger fast cars (Vettes mostly). The reason was that the winning became course and event dependent, and you had different winners because of the car and not the driver. Unfortunately those days are long gone and we have small lightweight cars running against bigger power dependent cars and there are going to be days where you can't win because you brought a knife to a gunfight.....

If they implement this proposal, they need to also do a complete reclassing because an awful lot of cars (like our Corvettes) are not going to respond the same a an Elise or Porsche to harder tires.

Solofast

I don't think that's really true. I've run my C5Z with -2 degrees of negative cambe up front and as long as I keep the toe a bit in on the street tire life isn't bad at all.

Yes, I do give up some life, but I got 20,000 miles out of the OE tires on the Z by flipping them at 10,000 miles of street only driving.

As above, you can't go crazy with shock settings, but I think that a decent competitive car can be a daily driver. You might not win Nationals with it, but you could bring home some chrome on a regular basis with it. You've just got to tweak it a bit when you go to the event, and set it back for the street in terms of shock settings and toe. It doesn't take 10 minutes to do that so I can live with it.

froggy47

The street tire 140/200 rule will just send all the Vettes & Vipers to track days or to SP. Lotus & Porsche (lower hp, smaller wb & overall) will win on "most" regional courses (Miata courses).

No fun there.

Solofast

I don't disagree that it won't be as much fun. Also there's gotta be a lot of class restructuring to make this work. If we end up against the Elises on tires that suck it's game over, and your'e absolutely right folks will vote with their feet...

Wouldn't be the first time the SEB has screwed the pooch by killing a popular class... Been there, seen that before... plenty of times...

autoxer6

Solofast,
I have run my C5Z on street tires many times. Both autocross and track. There is plenty of grip there, it's just harder to control. I can go full throttle with street tires in first gear, in the WET! You can do it, it's just harder to modulate the throttle. I dont enjoy it though. The car is slower in transition because we have so much more weight to move around. I prefer driving more nimble cars MX5, MR2, etc with street tires then I do my vette.

Chris Shay
(national super stock competitor for 6 years)