rynoracer32

Hi Guys,
I have been racing on and off with NASA for a couple years and I keep hearing about SCCA , I was wondering if anyone (who knows both organizations pretty well) could give me a non-biased opinion about the differences between the 2 organizations.

urtoslo

All right, I'll take a stab at this. I've been running with both about the same length of time, app 15 years. They both do about the same stuff, while SCCA breaks out a HPDE/TT weekend from a racing weekend, NASA stuffs them both in the same event. However, SCCA has the best corner workers hands down. They've been doing it longer and are really good at it, while NASA ranges from adequate to clueless.

Jaymz

That depends on the region. At MidOhio you will see the same corner workers working the NASA events as the SCCA events.

gbvette62

At NJ Motorsports Park, a lot of the same workers, seem to do all of the events. A large majority of them come from the South Jersey and Philadelphia SCCA Regions, and have been flagging for many years.

urtoslo

That's good to hear. I'm planning on running NASA NE region this year.

Lawdogg

Nasa is a for profit organization and at the Regional level will usually let you run with a rule violation and tell you to get it fixed before the next event. They want the money. SCCA is a non-profit and they aren't as willing to take your money and let you run. Fix it first and then run would be their likely response to a rule violation. I think NASA, in general, is more driver friendly.

Olitho

I disagree. Both organizations vary widely from region to region. I agree Lawdogg that may be your experience in your area, but I have personal experience with both organizations and that sort of judgement needs to be made by region. If management changes at either one the culture will change with it so even the regions are affected over time.

exracer28

SCCA is very rules based but for racing that makes for a safer race. The workers are trained and licensed in a specific area and are full time at the event. I do not like having for a tech but as said before NASA is for profit.

NASA is better at marketing and reaches out more to the beginner and has more HPDE but both groups have plenty of room for improvement especially in the rule process. I have witnessed NASA SE cutting a race short to stay on schedule. Driving hundreds of miles for a 4 lap race does not make for a happy camper. I have never seen this any where but NASA SE so your luck may be better.

A close friend and fellow driver felt that NASA is more of a car club that wants to play at racing compared to SCCA that may be too formal and rule bound. My vote and money goes to SCCA because I feel safer on the track with them. Other regions might be different and my lack of people skills proberly drive me to set rules.

My experienced is based racing in the southeast area with both groups and have not been to a NASA race in a few years.

Weston

Both organizations have a loyal following, so an unbiased opinion is not something you're likely to find, but here is what I do know from spending several years with each...

The experience in both clubs can really come down to the particular region you're in, but there are some national-office politics too. In both cases, the local regions are what makes the club work, and both can be quite good. Arguments about safety are nonsense based on old talking points... I've seen (and been in) a lot of wrecks over the years, and the rate of incidents, serious and minor, doesn't seem to have any real difference between clubs, and that does not surprise me at all. Yes, SCCA is more **** about safety and regulations, but that really just means that they babysit you and your equipment more (which you should be taking responsibility for yourself anyway); it doesn't have much to do with what actually causes wrecks.

SCCA's autocross program is excellent, even if it does get taken a bit too seriously, IMO. Their PDX and Time Trials program are also good, but NASA's HPDE program does a better job of appealing to participants and fitting their needs. NASA's Time Trials program also has classing that makes a lot more sense, and it has more advanced driving rules and requirements... That's a good thing for experienced drivers, but new guys who just want to do Time Trials without much commitment will find that it's a lot easier to go compete on the road course in SCCA Time Trials. NASA will want you to go through all 4 levels of their HPDE program, where you will learn a lot, but it's also structured in a way that makes them money. That's easily worth it for some people, but others may just want to get into TT with less time or hassle.

When I started moving towards Club Racing, I was really turned off by SCCA... I went out there as a spectator for a friend's first race, and I observed so much ego and power-tripping from the officials in general that I wanted nothing to do with that. I've since heard countless reports of them being total jackasses to new people. Whether that's exaggerated or not, I don't know, but it certainly fits with what I saw, so racing with NASA was an easy choice... they welcome you and want your business, where SCCA doesn't seem to want new people unless you have an in with someone who's part of their clique. That's the leading reason SCCA classes can dwindle to nothing... the old guys eventually quit, and they had spent the last 20 years running off anybody who would want to replace them. NASA is a heck of a lot more friendly and approachable, which is one of the benefits of them being for-profit.

NASA also had much more appealing and larger classes for me at the time. I got in on the first year of a new class, which was awesome and we had great growth, but a year or two later, the NASA national office started forcing stuff on us designed to make them (and Toyo Tires) more money at our expense, and this kind of thing kept happening repeatedly and getting worse. It was frequently spun as if they were doing us some kind of favor, so that was insulting on top of being a raw deal for racers, and much nastiness followed, with several classes having a lot of turnover as a result. I'm putting that really mildly, actually... I've never seen so much bad blood, burned bridges, and hurt feelings in my life. It affected most of the big classes, and several prominent class directors became openly and unopenly defiant of the national office, with many of them later resigning under unfriendly circumstances. These were the guys who had brought them the awesome growth, and NASA National just crapped all over them for sticking up for the racers, and then spun it all politically. Many of us racers finally had enough and left, and I don't know a single person who regrets leaving. The regret is just that good people, like regional directors and the remaining class directors, got caught in the middle of that river of bad blood. I could go on, but the bottom line is that it's just way way too much drama, politics, and greed for something that's supposed to be a fun hobby. Given the rate of turnover in road racing, especially in NASA, it's all but forgotten among today's racers, so the cycle continues. My advice is have as much fun as you can while it lasts, but don't get overly invested.


In the end, I'm going back to SCCA autocross, and I get my high speed fix with open track days. Autocross has its faults, and a few people with silly egos running around in that parking lot, but it also has an easy potential to be a simple low-stress hobby that you can enjoy without much effort, and it happens to be inexpensive too. Road Racing was awesome at times, and nothing else I've done in motorsports has even come close to matching that, but the amount of BS involved with it in either club makes it unsustainable for so many of us... It seems like a lot of people last about 2-3 seasons and then hang it up, so it tends to be a passing interest. I've come to find ChumpCar and 24 Hours of Lemons to be pretty interesting, specifically because they're ridiculous and not taken too seriously.

AU N EGL

are not corner workers more aligned or work with the local track, ie they are paid by the track, which charges the organization.

So yes you see many of the same corner works are SCCA and NASA events Plus the HPDEs.

Bill32

Not here (Nv.&Ca.), all volunteers, no connections with the track.
About all we get is a $25 gas card.

Weston

Depends on the track. If you go to Miller, I believe they require you use their corner workers, although the starter stand, grid, T&S, etc., will be manned by people from the club.

But every other track I've been to has had workers that belong to the club that's renting it.

Lawdogg

I am sure there are regional differences as you stated, but the for profit nature of NASA does influence its rule enforcement, as it should.

exracer28

I asked why all the flag stations were not fully manned at a race at Roebling and was told it cost too much and they thought it was not needed. There was a wreck just after an unmanned station before the next manned station so the drivers turned a blind turn into a wreck. That was a deciding factor for me to stop going to NASA events. There is also their withholding race results until their social. With SCCA the results are posted after the race. Again my experience is only with NASA SE.

MarkDFW

FYI NASA did not require me to go through all four HPDE levels to compete in time trials. I was approved for advanced HPDE by other schools and NASA had me get a check ride in HPDE 3 and I went straight to time trials.

Supercharged111

I've heard here in the Rocky Mountain Region that the SCCA track events are biased toward the racers, so they'll blow away any HPDE equivalent time for a track cleanup. With NASA RM, they'll shave a few minutes off each session to keep the show rolling. I'm still a little curious about SCCA here, though I have heard kind of what others have alluded to in that they're not as friendly. NASA RM is all about having fun, and the picture painted for me about SCCA is that it's more about dick measuring. Still curious for myself as I don't like to take the word of 1 or 2 who may have just had a bad experience. I will say though that NASA RM feeds us on Saturday night and hooks it up with free beer, usually one watered down for the masses and decent beer for those of us with taste buds. The atmosphere is great, I feel right at home, and really don't feel like I'm bleeding out all my money for some corporate bastard to get rich because nobody at the track is about that at all. Damn I can't wait for April 6-7.

Olitho

I don't think anyone at NASA is getting rich and you will find 95% of the people at SCCA super friendly.

KBow_Photo

some tracks do hire their own workers, I know Road America does for events like NASCAR.

I love flagging, if anyone is interested in trying it out, let me know. I can give you details. I also have created a facebook page.

MYRX

My first time on the track was with the SCCA PDX program. Excellent experience, with an instructor from the ATL Region who raced formula cars. Safety was hammered from the beginning. In my opinion, just getting started, the SCCA PDX is the way to go. Less cars on track, grouped into three classes based upon experience. I found as I gained experience, that the SCCA's priority was racing.

I switched to NASA SE, entering into HPDE 3 for a season. At that level, NASA SE offers much more. I then moved to TT. If you want to do TT's, then NASA is king! Especially in the SE. Jim and Julie run a great program. In my experience they go out of their way to help any participating driver. IMHO, NASA is the choice if you are doing HPDE2, HPDE3, HPDE4, and Time Trials.
If I raced, it would be SCCA. They are the grand-father with much more experience. Yes, they have their quirks, but the folks I met in the ALT Region are super. They take care of their corner workers too. SCCA would be the choice if you like racing or hill climbs.


Each organization has benefits. I have met many people willing to share and help out in each.

AU N EGL

WOW. We pay $10/ hour per corner worker per HPDE we host.