another Caliper question thread, help me spend $$
06-20-2013, 04:25 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
BBK caliper thermlock piston question
Ok I'm looking at a BBK to replace the old c5 stock system (front), which is like using a hatchet for surgery... I have been pouring over threads finding one with several respected forum members sources stating don't get the non thermlock pistons.
Stoptech st 60 has piston noses that are additional to reject heat transfer and the wilwood w6a ST that has the thermlock pistons, basically the same idea, but come standard in their ST version of the caliper.
My question is would the stoptech need the http://www.stoptech.com/racing/racin...m-piston-noses titanium piston noses to perform on par with the wilwood w6a and how much are they and did anyone notice a difference without them?
Wilwood caliper link is here:http://wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperP...=120-11658-RSN The kit from Summit Racing is $26XX, just about dead even with stoptech.
Any thoughts, suggestions, or comments welcome.
Stoptech st 60 has piston noses that are additional to reject heat transfer and the wilwood w6a ST that has the thermlock pistons, basically the same idea, but come standard in their ST version of the caliper.
My question is would the stoptech need the http://www.stoptech.com/racing/racin...m-piston-noses titanium piston noses to perform on par with the wilwood w6a and how much are they and did anyone notice a difference without them?
Wilwood caliper link is here:http://wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperP...=120-11658-RSN The kit from Summit Racing is $26XX, just about dead even with stoptech.
Any thoughts, suggestions, or comments welcome.
Last edited by NASAblue; 06-20-2013 at 05:02 PM.
06-20-2013, 05:02 PM
#2
Safety Car
Obvious choice in the Essex/AP sprint kit.
Pads for the stoptechs are pricey, hard to justify.
W6A seems interesting, but have trouble getting on board that it is a race-quality piece.
Pads for the stoptechs are pricey, hard to justify.
W6A seems interesting, but have trouble getting on board that it is a race-quality piece.
06-20-2013, 06:25 PM
#4
Racer
Thread Starter
I appreciate the recommendation and looked at AP, but they don't have any type of thermal protection on the piston and that's what I'm wondering about.
I spoke with another instructor at VIR with the AP setup and he had to grind something in order to get them to fit. He did say they were much better than stock, but he was already talking about bigger wheels and another set up, so from his feedback, I felt they were a compromise to use stock wheels and still heated up too much.
For $2,6XX they are as expensive as stoptechs, don't come with pads, have the stock size rotor, and 4 piston calipers. Those are strikes one, two, and three for me vs 6 piston calipers with 355mm rotors for the same price.
I spoke with another instructor at VIR with the AP setup and he had to grind something in order to get them to fit. He did say they were much better than stock, but he was already talking about bigger wheels and another set up, so from his feedback, I felt they were a compromise to use stock wheels and still heated up too much.
For $2,6XX they are as expensive as stoptechs, don't come with pads, have the stock size rotor, and 4 piston calipers. Those are strikes one, two, and three for me vs 6 piston calipers with 355mm rotors for the same price.
06-20-2013, 08:15 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
I appreciate the recommendation and looked at AP, but they don't have any type of thermal protection on the piston and that's what I'm wondering about.
I spoke with another instructor at VIR with the AP setup and he had to grind something in order to get them to fit. He did say they were much better than stock, but he was already talking about bigger wheels and another set up, so from his feedback, I felt they were a compromise to use stock wheels and still heated up too much.
For $2,6XX they are as expensive as stoptechs, don't come with pads, have the stock size rotor, and 4 piston calipers. Those are strikes one, two, and three for me vs 6 piston calipers with 355mm rotors for the same price.
I spoke with another instructor at VIR with the AP setup and he had to grind something in order to get them to fit. He did say they were much better than stock, but he was already talking about bigger wheels and another set up, so from his feedback, I felt they were a compromise to use stock wheels and still heated up too much.
For $2,6XX they are as expensive as stoptechs, don't come with pads, have the stock size rotor, and 4 piston calipers. Those are strikes one, two, and three for me vs 6 piston calipers with 355mm rotors for the same price.
06-20-2013, 08:30 PM
#7
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
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I appreciate the recommendation and looked at AP, but they don't have any type of thermal protection on the piston and that's what I'm wondering about.
I spoke with another instructor at VIR with the AP setup and he had to grind something in order to get them to fit. He did say they were much better than stock, but he was already talking about bigger wheels and another set up, so from his feedback, I felt they were a compromise to use stock wheels and still heated up too much.
For $2,6XX they are as expensive as stoptechs, don't come with pads, have the stock size rotor, and 4 piston calipers. Those are strikes one, two, and three for me vs 6 piston calipers with 355mm rotors for the same price.
I spoke with another instructor at VIR with the AP setup and he had to grind something in order to get them to fit. He did say they were much better than stock, but he was already talking about bigger wheels and another set up, so from his feedback, I felt they were a compromise to use stock wheels and still heated up too much.
For $2,6XX they are as expensive as stoptechs, don't come with pads, have the stock size rotor, and 4 piston calipers. Those are strikes one, two, and three for me vs 6 piston calipers with 355mm rotors for the same price.
Pads for the Wilwoods are available from Wilwood and Porterfield. The Wilwood 6617 pad is a partial copy of the AP CP7040D61/CP7040D54 pad shape and is available from Porterfield with Raybestos Compounds. Porterfield mills the AP pad down to the 6617 shape. I just purchased some ST47s for my W6A calipers and will be using them next Monday and Tuesday. I suppose you could do this with any compound the AP pad comes with.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 04-05-2014 at 09:57 PM.
06-20-2013, 09:54 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
I concur....although I have Stoptech ST 60 and ST 40 BBK on my C5 Z06, I do feel that the Essex BBK system is superior for SCCA/NASA levelsl of racing or tracking your car in HPDEs.
06-20-2013, 10:28 PM
#9
Drifting
I have an AP T1 kit with the stock rear calipers and can't help wonder if my car would stop better and have increased pad life had I gone with Stoptech ST-40's in the front. I'm burning through Carbotech pads on this thing.
06-20-2013, 10:45 PM
#10
Safety Car
Compare the pad volume btw the ST40/60 pads and the AP pads. Some difference, but not as much as you might hope. You may have better luck with another compound. The AP rotors can take a harsh (longer lasting) pad.
06-21-2013, 12:35 AM
#11
Drifting
I went with the budget upgrade from Wilwood. I run their Caliper upgrade kit with W6A calipers and can be set up to run with the C6 Z51 or Z06. I'm currently running the Z51 rotors under my C5Z 17" front wheels but if you are running 18" wheels you should be able to run the C6Z 14" rotors.
Makes the rotor option a little easier and you have your pad choices.
*Edit* This upgrade including rotors was about half of what you are looking to spend.
Makes the rotor option a little easier and you have your pad choices.
*Edit* This upgrade including rotors was about half of what you are looking to spend.
Last edited by Bad Karma; 06-21-2013 at 01:32 AM.
06-21-2013, 01:25 AM
#12
Drifting
You've gotten some good advice but I'll tell my experience. I bought a used set of the Lg wilwood kit for the front only which is the sl6 that uses the 7860 pad if iirc [stock pistons]. It fits with zo6 c5 rears and c4 gs 17x 11. I've run st43 pads for half a year on one set and won several tts. I haven't run race group yet, getting the car caged now. The pedal softness I had prior isn't solved but I've learned to live with it. I don't run abs anymore because it failed for unknown reasons. I spent 900 bucks. There are better kits but I'm happy. The guy I bought from upgraded to AP.
06-21-2013, 04:14 AM
#13
I was looking into the same setup and came to the conclusion that the number of pad choices is very limited if running wilwood calipers...
You can get the ap kit with no rotors for 1600 then upgrade to floating rotors later. Also you mentioned that you wanted larger rotors - the ap kit comes with caliper adapters (carriers) for either a 12.8" or 14" rotor... if youre set on a 14 then you can specify that and either get the 14" floating rotors (http://hardbarusa.com/hardbar/produc...products_id=49), or run some other stock c6z size/spec rotors.
If you do get the wilwood, you can avoid the safety wires by getting nordlocks for the rotors: http://hardbarusa.com/hardbar/produc...roducts_id=178
You can get the ap kit with no rotors for 1600 then upgrade to floating rotors later. Also you mentioned that you wanted larger rotors - the ap kit comes with caliper adapters (carriers) for either a 12.8" or 14" rotor... if youre set on a 14 then you can specify that and either get the 14" floating rotors (http://hardbarusa.com/hardbar/produc...products_id=49), or run some other stock c6z size/spec rotors.
If you do get the wilwood, you can avoid the safety wires by getting nordlocks for the rotors: http://hardbarusa.com/hardbar/produc...roducts_id=178
06-21-2013, 06:41 AM
#14
I have an AP T1 kit with the stock rear calipers and can't help wonder if my car would stop better and have increased pad life had I gone with Stoptech ST-40's in the front. I'm burning through Carbotech pads on this thing.
snip... I do feel that the Essex BBK system is superior for SCCA/NASA levelsl of racing or tracking your car in HPDEs.
snip... I do feel that the Essex BBK system is superior for SCCA/NASA levelsl of racing or tracking your car in HPDEs.
The Esses AP is a good front caliper set but the Stoptech T1 kit was designed as a complete solution with 4 Stoptech calipers designed for the stock master cylinder. It was empirically designed on paper and developed on my racecar at the track by Stoptech engineers. Then our SCCA T1 national champion took the championship racing on The Stoptech T1 kit in a C6.
This 4 caliper kit costs more than a front only but if you want pain free low maintenance and proven results that is how you get them.
06-21-2013, 08:19 AM
#15
Drifting
My first set of rings lasted me about 5-6 track days on 3 different compounds and street driving.
I may do that. I wore a set of XP20's half way down in one day at Sebring a few weeks ago. Granted I was braking ridiculously hard but still.
06-21-2013, 08:28 AM
#16
Racer
Thread Starter
I went with the budget upgrade from Wilwood. I run their Caliper upgrade kit with W6A calipers and can be set up to run with the C6 Z51 or Z06. I'm currently running the Z51 rotors under my C5Z 17" front wheels but if you are running 18" wheels you should be able to run the C6Z 14" rotors.
Makes the rotor option a little easier and you have your pad choices.
*Edit* This upgrade including rotors was about half of what you are looking to spend.
Makes the rotor option a little easier and you have your pad choices.
*Edit* This upgrade including rotors was about half of what you are looking to spend.
06-21-2013, 08:31 AM
#17
Racer
Thread Starter
Yes, the pads are similar thickness but it's on a 12.8" versus 14" providing a lot less cooling.
My first set of rings lasted me about 5-6 track days on 3 different compounds and street driving.
I may do that. I wore a set of XP20's half way down in one day at Sebring a few weeks ago. Granted I was braking ridiculously hard but still.
My first set of rings lasted me about 5-6 track days on 3 different compounds and street driving.
I may do that. I wore a set of XP20's half way down in one day at Sebring a few weeks ago. Granted I was braking ridiculously hard but still.
06-21-2013, 08:33 AM
#18
Racer
Thread Starter
I was looking into the same setup and came to the conclusion that the number of pad choices is very limited if running wilwood calipers...
You can get the ap kit with no rotors for 1600 then upgrade to floating rotors later. Also you mentioned that you wanted larger rotors - the ap kit comes with caliper adapters (carriers) for either a 12.8" or 14" rotor... if youre set on a 14 then you can specify that and either get the 14" floating rotors (http://hardbarusa.com/hardbar/produc...products_id=49), or run some other stock c6z size/spec rotors.
If you do get the wilwood, you can avoid the safety wires by getting nordlocks for the rotors: http://hardbarusa.com/hardbar/produc...roducts_id=178
You can get the ap kit with no rotors for 1600 then upgrade to floating rotors later. Also you mentioned that you wanted larger rotors - the ap kit comes with caliper adapters (carriers) for either a 12.8" or 14" rotor... if youre set on a 14 then you can specify that and either get the 14" floating rotors (http://hardbarusa.com/hardbar/produc...products_id=49), or run some other stock c6z size/spec rotors.
If you do get the wilwood, you can avoid the safety wires by getting nordlocks for the rotors: http://hardbarusa.com/hardbar/produc...roducts_id=178
06-21-2013, 08:38 AM
#19
Racer
Thread Starter
You've gotten some good advice but I'll tell my experience. I bought a used set of the Lg wilwood kit for the front only which is the sl6 that uses the 7860 pad if iirc [stock pistons]. It fits with zo6 c5 rears and c4 gs 17x 11. I've run st43 pads for half a year on one set and won several tts. I haven't run race group yet, getting the car caged now. The pedal softness I had prior isn't solved but I've learned to live with it. I don't run abs anymore because it failed for unknown reasons. I spent 900 bucks. There are better kits but I'm happy. The guy I bought from upgraded to AP.
I don't run abs anymore either, it basically self defeats (I blame gremlins) so when I loose the feel of the caliper I can't get threshold feedback in time to not flat spot the tires.
06-21-2013, 08:56 AM
#20
Racer
Thread Starter
The Stoptech T1 kit was developed on my SCCA T1 racecar and uses the St40 caliper. Rotor rings have lasted me over 2+ years of racing and only changed because I raced at a venue many states from home. One set of front pads last one year of racing. My rear pads have gone 2+ years and still going.
The Esses AP is a good front caliper set but the Stoptech T1 kit was designed as a complete solution with 4 Stoptech calipers designed for the stock master cylinder. It was empirically designed on paper and developed on my racecar at the track by Stoptech engineers. Then our SCCA T1 national champion took the championship racing on The Stoptech T1 kit in a C6.
This 4 caliper kit costs more than a front only but if you want pain free low maintenance and proven results that is how you get them.
The Esses AP is a good front caliper set but the Stoptech T1 kit was designed as a complete solution with 4 Stoptech calipers designed for the stock master cylinder. It was empirically designed on paper and developed on my racecar at the track by Stoptech engineers. Then our SCCA T1 national champion took the championship racing on The Stoptech T1 kit in a C6.
This 4 caliper kit costs more than a front only but if you want pain free low maintenance and proven results that is how you get them.
-Wilwood or AP racing may have more available and cheeper pads/parts, but it seems they will chew up the smaller rotor ring and that's $300-$700 a pop and increased maintenance. Maybe 2 per season at 15 track days. It seems AP racing is better than the wilwood, but both seem in the same tier of being able to use stock 17" c5 z wheels.
-Stoptech ST-60 seem like they are a little better than the W6A based wilwood kits. These are 6 piston calipers that have the added advantage of better rotor cooling and leverage so even if parts are more $, they are not being replaced as frequently. Overall, this seems like it is the next tier of brake.
-Then are the heavy hitters, the stoptech trophy and the GT brembos. I won't even bother with parts cost because if you have bought these your not worried about it.
