jcblade

I'm usually a test and tune guy just having fun. Today at Englishtown I tried bracket racing for the first time and realized how little I know. After the time trials of running 11.4 and 11.6, I decided to dial in an 11.5. I went up against a true racer. Here's what happened, I lost but I don't understand why. He dialed 10.10. I ran 11.93 against the 11.5 dial. He ran 10.938 against the 10.10 dial. Since I ran .43 over my dial and he ran .838 over his, I thought I won but I didn't. His reaction time was .131 and mine was .560. Why did I lose? What am I missing?

kromberg

Your reaction time killed you. You gave him 0.431 of a second advantage. The whole point of bracket racing is the first person to cross the line without going faster than their dial in time. So there two things that can hurt you:

1) Difference between dial in and actual ET. Time you are giving away.
2) Difference reaction times. Either giving or getting time.

Here are some example:

You dial 10.50 and run 10.70 with a reaction of 0.100
Him dial 11.50 and runs 11.60 with a reaction of 0.450

- ET wise you gave away 0.1 seconds: You off 0.200 and him 0.100 with him gaining 0.100 advantage.

- Reaction time he was 0.350 seconds slower so you gained 0.250 seconds.

You would have crossed the line first 0.150 seconds ahead of the other guy.

Makes sense? It took me a little to understand a get that it is a difference of ET and reaction time.

DRIVER456

Who crossed the finish line first

Glensgages

if you can post a photo of your 1st Round ET-slip, members here can explain what all the data at the bottom means

C5 Pete

Bracket racing is package racing.

His run was 10.938 + .131 = 11.069. Subtract his dial of 10.10, and get .969. That's his "package"

Your run was 11.93? + .560 = 12.49? Subtract your dial of 11.50 and get .99? That's your "package" Your "package" was bigger than his...

There are two things to be clear about here... Bracket racing is the only time it's ok to check out another guys package, and to hope for a smaller package than the other guy...


I learned all this from Glen ^, and racing at RP in the corvette challenge series...

Welcome to the chaos. i hope you continue to bracket race and strive to get better. It's very difficult to get good at this game, but when you get a win light, it is very rewarding too...

DannyB123

If you add what you ran over your dial to your reaction time you get your package do the same for the other lane the lower numbered package is the winner. I too hope you keep bracket racing it is challenging and rewarding, especially if you can put out those race cars in your daily driver.

Glensgages

each month, Jay 'the Foot-Braking Fool' Robinson releases a video that he produces of his recent exploits, racing an older Chevrolet Nova that runs mid-10 second 1/4-mile times (6.80's in the 1/8-mile):
he equips his car with several video cameras that are synch'd together, showing each run from various angles, including his often-quicker opponents running him down at the Finish Line

competing in both of the upper, money-paying classes (Super Pro, or 'Top' as IHRA calls it, No Box or 'Modified') at his local tracks, Robinson discusses his dial-in thinking before each run, then dissects the run immediately following each pass, including a graphic, showing all important data from the time-slip:
although some of the terms and phrases may be foreign, these videos (this is his 6th video of the season) might be helpful to newcomers to the sport

jcblade

Thanks for all the feedback. He crossed the line first. He caught up to me really fast and then slowed to be almost even with me making sure he crossed the finish line first. With all of your feedback I was able to do the math to see how the numbers came out on the time slip. Here's the important numbers on the slip:

His: Mine:
Dial 10.10 11.50
R/T .131 .560
E.T. 10.938 11.930


At the bottom of the slip it had: Left 1st .0210
Left MOV .0210

The first calculation I did was subtract my slower R/T from his (.560 - .131 = .429). He already has a .429 advantage.

Next I subtracted my E.T. from my dial (11.930 - 11.50 = .43). He now has a .859 advantage (.429 + .43 = .859).

I took has E.T. and subtracted his dial (10.938 - 10.10 = .838)

I took the .859 advantage I gave him and subtracted his .838. He won by .0210.

I think that's correct.

I like CAPTHUFF's calculation it was much easier. Add the E.T. to the reaction time and subtract the dial:

His 10.938 + .131 = 11.069 - 10.10 = .969
Mine 11.930 + .560 = 12.49 - 11.50 = .990

He had a lower number by .0210.

I also didn't realize I had to cross the finish line first. I thought it was only the best time. Is that correct?


Once again thanks and I will try bracket again.

Glensgages

yes, the winner will be he who crosses the Finish Line first w/o running quicker than his dial-in (also called 'running-under', or 'breaking-out' {breaking-out of your self-imposed dial-in}):
in the event that both racers run too-quick, the racer who runs 'less-quick', or closer to the dial, is the winner and advances

in organized drag-racing, keep in-mind that when both competitors violate the rules, we adhere to the 'first or worst' violation ~ if both racers make the same mistake, it is whoever did it first (red-light, or cross the center-line, for example) who is disqualified:
if racers make different mistakes (one red-lights, while the other crosses the line), the worst violator is sent-home


you have also correctly done the 'racer-math' at the bottom of the time-slip:
it should have an arrow pointing to your opponent's side of the slip where it says 'FIRST', and the number '.021' should also be on his side of the slip, where it says 'MOV', which is 'Margin of Victory'

C5 Pete

In most cases, you have to cross the finish line first, but not always - as Glen mentioned above about breaking out.

There are many facets to bracket racing. The best thing to do is to find a mentor at the track you go to and ask questions. I was very fortunate to have a very active Corvette challenge series when I first started. I asked questions to anyone that would listen. I am by no means a seasoned bracket racer, but I jumped in with both feet and drank from the fire hose. Ask as many questions on here as well, if you'd like. And watch the video series that Glen linked above. There will likely be terminology used that you might not be familiar with, so ask us if your head starts spinning.

The reason your opponent caught you so quickly is that you spotted him 4+ tenths on the tree.
If you had identical reaction times, you would have been further down the track by the time he launched, and further down the track by the time he caught you.
If you had a better reaction time than him, he might not have caught you at all.

Lets say your car runs exactly what you guess it will, and your opponent's car does the same, if you spot him .020 on the tree, he will cross the stripe .020 ahead of you. This is why it's important to have a good reaction time.

Good luck next time out!

99ZX9R

Lots of good info in this section for the beginning bracket racer. The sticky above "Bracket racing strategy" is where I would start.

You may also want to give Index racing a try since it looks like you have a viable 11.50 car. The pro tree, heads up start is more appealing to some than the full tree, handicap start of a bracket race.

Either way if it looks like you will be doing more competitive racing in the future, I strongly recommend investing in a practice tree. They are definitely worth the cost.

Best of luck.

Jerseyvinny

JC, Glad you're having fun. I can't do test and tune. If I'm at the track, I need the adrenalin rush of racing someone else. A very long time ago when I saw my first drag races at Montgomery drag strip (late 50s or early 60s near Stewart Air Force Base) I can still remember a race between a stock VW Beetle and a stock Karmann Ghia (those were built on Beetle mechanicals for you young guys). The take away message for me was it's not about speed, it's about competition. Bracket racing with its dial ins is the best way to enjoy this competition as it has virtually eliminated cheating and doesn't encourage abusing the car. Like I told my kids when they raced : Drive it at the track as if you still had to drive it home- because you do.

Jerseyvinny

JC, One more thing. Are you waiting for the green? If so, you can reduce your reaction time by 0.5 seconds by going on the last yellow. Then there's always deep staging which cuts reaction time. Lots of stuff to try. That's part of the fun.

jcblade

On the bracket race I did wait for the green because I didn't think reaction time meant anything. When I do test and tune I'm reacting on the last yellow since these old bones of 68 take time to move. Not sure I understand index racing. I don't think I've seen that at Englishtown when I was there, but could be wrong. Sounds interesting.

Glensgages

above, 99ZX9R spoke of Index Racing, which is just another form of bracket racing, complete with running too-quick (breaking-out), except all the cars in each class run against an index specified by the track, with a heads-up start, and run off of a Pro Tree, where all 3 Amber bulbs flash at-once, followed by the Green light .4-seconds later:
again, reacting to the Christmas Tree is crucial to being successful, because what you gain in RT advantage is difficult to lose down-track, and many racers will ride the brakes across the stripe if they are well-ahead of their opponent, to ensure they don't run quicker than allowed

many of the racers in the 11.50 class are capable of running that number easily, and use a variety of methods trying to slow the car down (tuning via computer, adding weight to their car, placing different size restrictor-plates under their carburetors, lowing shift points, etc.) so they run as-close-to their chosen index as possible:
I have personally never competed in an Index Class race, but have watched and helped a few racers (made restrictor-plates with customized holes), so I can't comment further on this subject

Capthuff and 99ZX9R, amongst others on this site, are your best-bet for gaining knowledge on Index Class racing

kazman

Welcome to the addiction. You can get a lot of help here from a bunch of experienced racers.

392 racer

hi
Your reaction time killed you. You gave him 0.431 of a second advantage.


how did you get this??

kazman

This is an old thread. Reaction time difference was .429. 392 racer are you racing a Mopar? No flames just wondering.

392 racer

Hey
Thanks for the clarification. I have had a few passes and I am still trying to get myself familiar with the bracket racing and get a plan and stick to it. Yes I have a mopar,BUT, it will be gone when I get my C8 Z06. Some car !!
Regards

kazman

I may be doing the reverse going from a C4 to a 1320 Scat. I'm still on the fence. Bracket racing is all about consistency. A stick shift makes that task very very difficult. There are a number of very experienced bracket racers here. Good luck.