Matt Gruber

this is a go/no go check during final asembly. Purpose is to check for mistakes by the machine shop.
i once caught an out of round piston that appeared to have been dropped.
WHAT IS THE END USER TO USE? it works.
not state of the art machine shop method
not used for checking out of round used cyl's.

BLOCKMAN

If you don't have that much faith in your machine you should find another one and if your checking piston to wall with feeler gauges that come in .001 incroments that is surly not very accurate seeing we work in .0001

machineman

I am suprised that the use of a feeler gauge would even enter this conversation. A bore gauge is the most accurate way.

Matt Gruber

i don't have faith,
i have a feeler set that measures .0005
if your work can't pass a feeler test, find another job.
i see u don't like the customer checking your work

BLOCKMAN

Feeler gauge test just when I think I have heard it all and only working in .0005 HMMMMMMMM were working in .0001 big differance there. Customers check my work all the time as we ship blocks to other real engine builders and machine shops all over the country and Canada and actually we have shipped race prepped blocks all over the world.

If a customer checks the bores in 010 block he would have to use a torque plate on the block as honing with a torque plate you can distort a cylinder up to .004 and my customers have more brains then using a FEELER GAUGE to check piston to wall clearance.

One other thing we have pretty much the same equipment to machine blocks that the Sprint Cup teams use as we have state of the art CNC equipment to machine blocks with and state of the art measuring equipment for sizing.

Now cocking the piston over to one side to shove a feeler gauge between the block and the piston is not a very accurate way to check piston to bore clearance.

If your going to check someones work you really should have the same equipment for measuring that they used, I guess from what your saying is that the shop your using uses feeler gauges to do there work

Go to this forum http://speedtalk.com/forum/index.php...89d986a2c13b80 and post the proper way of checking piston to wall clearance is using a feeler gauge as think you would get lauged right off the site as I have sent this thread to some guys over there all ready when Cardo announced that using feeler gauges was the way to go


Again I expect people to check my work with the proper measuring equipment and they do, When we machine a block for another engine builder or performance machine shop they get what they spec out as far as sizing.

Here is a link on blue printing a block we did years ago and all this work was done with no feeler gauges

Again myself and the guys that I will be sending this link too thank you for the laughs just keepem coming

cardo0

FWIW the TRW forged pistons i had installed i read use at least 4.5 thou or 4.5 mills or 45 tenths or what ever u call it and some shops will increase this clearance even more. The shop tech that honed my block would hone and check clearance - yes with a feeler gauge - then hone more as needed. When done to his satisfaction the piston was then marked for that cyl but i honestly don't know if he made a final bore and piston measurement with gauges.
But when they had picked the block up yes i saw them measure wear using a bore with dial indicator as they checked if for wear infront of me - which i felt was rather honest of them.: : And more than likely they used the bore gauge when they bored the block though i wasn't there at the exact time.
Now u tell me that honing and checking in small steps with a feeler gauge won't work i say u are the one posting BS. Since u only post to use bore gauges and mics i can only imagine how long it would take to hone and measure in steps with a bore gauge each time. But i did get to talk with a proffessional machinist lately and if the feeler gauge is accurate enough it should not be a problem. It worked in my block and i have no problem using that method again.

As far as making friends here i am trying to share what has work for me with other Corvette Owners here and maybe save them some trouble and $$$ too. And i don't care if that flames some machine shop operators looking to sell aftermarket blocks with expensive forged assembles or $600 bore gauges(post #7 & #19). The truth is 99% of the Corvtte Owners here would rather use thier original block or a good used salvaged block. Maybe less than 1% of participants here have the funds for an aftermarket block.
And yes Corvette Owners here can save some money without line honing a used block as long as the the rotates freely once installed. As D. Vizard says if the rotates freely "then forget about it". Somehow u have a knowlege gap on when a block needs line honing also. Now u have bad mouthed D. Vizard too but frankly what u provide is just an obscure spec compared to what D. Vizard brings to table. And i don't see D. Vizard posting pages of dialoge defending his writting but rather his work sells all over the world at every major book supplier. BTW Vizard is spelled with a z not an s (post #14 & #19).

Maybe u and your business associates should look elsewhere for free advertizing like maybe start your own forum for machine shop operators selling expensive aftermarket blocks with all the machine work they can imagine or $600 bore gauges too(post #7). I welcome sharing useful information here from anyone but telling me somethng i have seen work quite well with my own eyes dosn't? Well again this is a Corvette Forum and maybe u need to post in a machinist forum or else post here in the cars for sale section as WTB.


Enough said as this has become one of biggest wastes of time but i hope Corvette Owners here can use the information.
cardo0

cardo0

Again the flapper valve in a solid lifter behaves like an oil pump. This is what Smokey Yunick writes is his POWER SECRETS. I had read this before and came accross it again - "the flapper valve acts as an itermedate oil pump to the vlv train". Yes, its on page 75 or maybe page 85 but our Confused Fault-finding and Incompetent poster really needs to read the whole book regardless.

As much as i enjoy reading as someone places his own foot in his mouth, this personal attack has nothing to do with the original posters request and i will request the Mods shut down this thread if these type of personal attacks continue. Get a clue or get out - u know who.
cardo0

BLOCKMAN

If your dealing with a shop teck that uses feeler gauges to check piston to wall clearance its time to find a real shop that does the job right

Again post over on the speed talk site that I have posted about checking piston to wall clearances with feeler gauges as some of the guys over there are waiting for you

cocking a piston in bore with a feeler gauge is surely not very accurate and when feeler gauges are not in .0001 increments.

If my customers came in my shop and saw me checking piston bores with feeler gauges it would not be long before I would have no work with using work ethics like that

Again please do not to post this like this as my stomack is hurting from laughing and there are some others laughing as well


I have been to shops all over the country and I have yet to see any one use feeler gauges to check bore clearances.

Boy you would not last long working at any machine shop that I know off checking bore clearances with feeler gauges

GEE I would really hate to see how you check your bearing clearances but fill me in as I need another laugh

It just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

Buy the way with all the Sunnen bore gauges we have at both our shops we have about 10,000.00 or more tied in measuring equipment and I would put by bore gauges and setting fixtures up against feeler gauges any day as I think the measuring equipment I use is far more accurate then what your using. Feeler gauges what a joke LOL, LOL

KEEPEM COMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CFI-EFI

And "i" is spelled with a capitol "I"
And "u" is spelled with a "y".
And "proffessional" is spelled "professional"
And "Corvtte" is spelled "Corvette".
And "thier" is spelled "their".
And "dialoge" is spelled "dialog".
And "writting: is spelled "writing".
And "advertizing" is spelled "advertising".
And "somethng" is spelled "something.
And "dosn't" is spelled "doesn't".
And "accross" is spelled "across".
And "itermedate" is spelled "intermediate".
And "vlv" is spelled "valve".





Maybe page 75" Maybe page 85? That certainly isn't a factual reference. Besides if GM meant it to be a pump, it would have been called a "piddle pump lifter". And if a pump is needed, how do engines not so equipped get oil to the top of the engine? Calling a tail a leg, doesn't make it a leg.


"this personal attack" seems to be being perpetuated by YOUR name calling of me. That is fine, I can take it. At least I don't have to threaten to "request the Mods shut down this thread", because I can't stand up to it. The "foot in mouth disease" dates back much further in your posting history. I would do a search, if I cared. Now, I have to go continue looking for that piston honing tool so I can finish the job you referenced.

RACE ON!!!

BLOCKMAN

Cardo
I can see why your machinist had to make the cylinders different sizes measuring with feeler gauges as the pistons have to be measured at at certain depth down from the skirt and checking with feeler gauges your only guessing. And I can tell your machinist is not good enough to work in .0001 if he is using feeler gauges.

Machinists that work like that and shops that work like that really make my shop SHINE when it comes to having the right equipment to do the right job and I am sure. I am sure who ever you used to do your work don't even begin to have the ability to blue print a block like what we do.

Cardo I have been building circle track engines and and drag engines for over 30 years now and I have a pretty good idea what works and what doesn't when it comes to machining and what it takes to do a good job.

BLOCKMAN

Cardo
Got an interesting email about using feeler gauges to check bores with we have some pistons that run .008 clearance and how the hell do fit a flat feeler gauge between a round piston and cylinder wall HMMMMMMMM and better yeat how do you do it with a .0045 or .005 feeler gauge.

KEEPEM COMING I AM READY

And one other thing here is a crying towel for you

machineman

Blockman is right. I have talked to some old timers that had production shops and they used the "feeler gauge" method to save time and it was also easier than training a guy on how to use the dial bore gauge and it's setting fixture. They were the first to admit that they were not doing race grade work and, for an OEM rebuild, it worked just fine. It is not how I would do it but there are a lot of old shops with old equipment and old ways of doing things.

As far as align honing goes, if the block is not measuring within factory specs, it needs to be align honed. As far as stock block Chevy engines go, we do about 7 out of 10 unless it is a performance job and in that case, I do 10 out of 10. That old way of "if it turns it is fine" is nonsense. The biggest reason why a lot of guys do not align hone blocks is that they do not have the equipment to do the job and sluff off doing it unless a bearing spun and then they send it out.

cardo0

Funny but I found a 12" feeler gauge in my desk the other day and it had 0.001", 0015", 0.002", 0.0025" gauges and every even thou there after.
For the home builder who is just assembling his short block the feeler gauges will do the job. KB hypers for chevy sb use 0.0015" to 0.0025" wall clearance. For $16 u can verify this at home. Folks, if your not boring and honing the block at home you don't need a bore gauge. Oh i'm sure a bore gauge is more acurate but use it to assemble an engine at home - what a waste.
Why is this so hard to understand for someone that wears 30 years of experince on his sleeve doesn't make sense. Unless u read his post selling $600 bore gauges (post #7) and selling $2000 aftermarket blocks. Unless u correct BLOCKMAN with BUSINESSMAN or SALESMAN - then it makes real sense. BTW poeple, the most expensive bore gauge SNAP ON sells is only $300. Craftsman? Only $120.

Now another machine operator buddy shows up refuting what D. Vizard says regarding align honing. Another machinist that knows more than the experts. Hey I didn't tell D. Vizard to publish what he wrote about align honing requirements. Again a non-corvette owner shows up to help us out with more expenive block macine work. Well to which ever machinist, salesman or business man participating here we are here to share our good information with other corvette owners - not throw our money away on expensive crap we don't need.
Folks i'm not selling a thing here. And u can buy a 12" feeler gauge set nearly anywhere for $16. The choice is yours and good luck.

WHATEVERYOUAREMAN? Keep'm coming you say? Well not at my expense but my leasure. Everytime i read your selling your expensive crap here i will do my best - and hopfully at your expense.

cardo0

BLOCKMAN

We are noted for doing high end work for engines builders and other machine shops across the U.S. and Canada actually we have shipped parts all over the world.

And as far as Dave Visard goes he does not do what we do and does not own a shop as he workd with Loyde at T&L Engines in NC.

And are block prices start at 575.00 not 2000 dollars as we machine alot of 010 blocks, clean and mag, sonic test, line hone with an ARP bolt kit, square and deck, hone lifter bores, bore and plate hone to spec, machine hole in the deck for the Felpro gaskets and machine the extra starter bolt hole in the block. For 575.00 is really a good price check into it.

I am sure the shop that uses feeler gauges does not a have a sonic tester either.

And we have guys spent 5000 dollars on a Dart Little-M block all lightened with all the bells and whistles lifter bore work and roller cam bearings ETC.

Cardo I am sure that if a guy walked into a shop that uses feeler gauges to measure bore piston wall clearance ( and sliding a peice of stainless steel between a piston and cylinder wall and not keeping the piston square in the bore is not very accurate.) Dis Dave Visard tell you to do this??????? And guy walked into a shop that has the best of everything to the best work which way would he go.

There are to many horror strories about machine shops doing substandard work and the that uses feeler gauges to check piston to wall clearance falls in this catagory HMMMMMM

As far as line honing we line hone everythignthat goes throgh the shop and no problems so far and we do a lot of line honing for the smaller shops that get there crank in the block and it binds up in the block so whats that tell you and after its line honed the crank spins fine HMMMMMMMMM MAGIC.

Again Dave Visard does not own a machine shop and I have to disagree with not line honing when it comes to building performance engines even on the street engine that some times need to be line honed.

Cardo post over on this site http://speedtalk.com how using feeler gauges to check bore clearance is the only way to go as I am sure you will get laughed off the site.

machineman

Are there really that many shops out there doing this? That scares me a little. No wonder people do not trust the automotive industry as a whole. These old timers need to get weeded out. The days of flat heads are over.

cardo0

As far as feeler gauges go they can be custom made for any thickness - yes 0.0001" increaments if needed. And would be as accurate or better than using your bore gauge as they would reduce the human measurement error. But for most of use assembling an engine at home with the usual 0.001", 0.0015", 0.002", 0.0025" set will do the job for checking a KB street hypers at 0.0015" to 0.002" wall clearance.

Gauge blocks are what a TRAINED MACHINIST uses to calibrate his BORE GAUGES. An accurate feeler gauge is in effect a small thin gauge block that eleminate the bore gauge. I sense i am wasting my breath and time here debating with a machine shop equipment operator with no formal training. No, i don't need to go to some want'a be machinist website and waste more of my time. I prefer to post here when i have the time to share information with hopefully other corvette owners.

Regardless, now the original poster now has his answer(s) and - pricing.

cardo0

BLOCKMAN

Wen measuring a bore clearance with a feeler gauge how in the hell do you keep the piston square in the bore and so to get an accurate measurment cocking a piston in a bore to try to slide a feeler gauge in is not very accute and you say its more accurate then a bore gauge

I have been to a lot of Cup shops and other top shops all over and never seen any one use a feeler gauge to check bore clearance give me a break.

Post this on speedtalk.com that a checking piston to wall is more accurate using a feeler gauge then a bore gauge. LMAO

rklessdriver

Wow I can't believe we are going on a couple of months with this.

Funny thou

Please don't send this clown over to Speed Talk. Maybe he should go over there... his hero David Vizard post there from time to time. Maybe the man himself could conjure some magical powers from his wealth of book writing experience and set him strait about this feeler gauge non sense.

So just for fun.

I wonder how you measure the friction or drag on the feeler gauge when you jam it in the bore up against the piston. Say for instance you get a .002 gauge, bend it around in there and it slips right in with little to no resistance, so you get out a .003 gauge and you have to pound it in there with a hammer... is the .003 tighter because you cocked the piston up against the side of the bore different this time or is it different because the .003 gauge is stiffer and it doesn’t bend around as easily and pushes up against the piston/bore harder, maybe your actual clearance is .0025 or .0026, maybe its .0021 but it would be hard to tell since you have no way to accurately measure the difference in actual friction or drag from one gauge to the other except by the feel of your hand. Then there are a few things that could interfere with your ability to measure the clearance. I mean (bear with me here, this is hypothetical) what happens if you get a hand/arm cramp, one hand/arm is weaker than the other, or you pull a finger out of socket.... the possibilities for error here are endless

Maybe this would work:

If you got one of those fish scale type things and used it to measure the force required to pull the feeler gauge out of the bore...

I also wonder what kind of damage a hardened STEEL feeler gauge could do to piston skirt. Maybe when you are using TRW's it really doesn’t matter...

Maybe just for fun we should call BRC, BME, Ross, CP, Weisco and JE (just a good cross section of some real piston manufactures) to get the real scoop on correctly measuring bore clearance. Have you guys ever thought about the possibility that we have been building these "over priced" racing engines all the years using the wrong measuring equipment...

Maybe I should throw in Badger/Dyna Gear, Zollinger and KB/Silvolite just to make sure that it's NOT ok to use feeler gauges for stock rebuilds too.

We really are trying to help you Cardoo (well maybe we are just being facetious at this point). There is a right way and a wrong way to do this. Just because you got away with doing the wrong way once doesn’t mean it work out good every time.
Will

comp

use a trigger pull gauge

CRE_Vette

I have been building engines for 30 plus years and this man is dead on the money. There are alot of blocks that came from GM with the mains that are NOT the same size, they will have .0003 .0002 and .0004 on the back side of the bearings and this is good reason to hone your mains. Neal