Is having a survior really worth it? Please read
03-10-2016, 12:32 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Is having a survior really worth it? Please read
Hey guys. Younger c5 owner here. Let me give you the brief backstory.
I just turned 33. My father who just turned 69 co incidentally purchased a brand new 1969 Stingray in early 1970. Something about a plant strike made his decision vs ordering a gunmetal lt1 1970 model.
The vehicle in question is a 1969 Stingray convertible, L46 350/350 M21 Car. It is Fathom Green with black interior. It has both the soft top and hard top.
I would venture to say the car is 95% all original. I know it got a new top somewhere in the 70s (tore it). The hardtop was white vinyl covered and he painted it body color also in the 70s. That's literally pretty much it. The paint is pretty rough these days with the checking, scuffs etc. The interior is all there and original. Underhood is all original aside from a few hoses, filters etc. It's largely uncleaned.
The tires are still Michelin Xs from the 70s. Its been garaged its entire life; it sat for most of my childhood. Runs and drives well; no smoke, around 93k on it.
Here's where the story gets good. The car was always promised to me and was a big part of my life and influences. Well, after my parents divorced and he had built a new home etc; he decided he was leaving it all and moving to Florida to live with his new girlfriend. I was about 22-23 at the time - fresh out of college with a ton of debt. He sold the car randomly one day while I was at work.
For 10 years he hasn't told me where it was/who he sold it to. He slipped up on his birthday 3 weeks ago and dropped a hint. Well, I managed to track the car down in 4 days and met with the new owner. We've agreed on an amount and I want to buy the car back to keep forever and for my dad to enjoy while I still have him.
It's basically just been stuffed away. Not a whole lot of change but some new dings, and the windshield is now broken (it was delaminating badly in the corner it broke).
Here's my dilemma:
Yes, its cool to have a survivor. Its like driving an old painting or something I guess. I don't really believe in messing with it as far as modifying etc. I'm a big vette freak; and to me, you just don't mess with certain ones. So I want to keep it as close to original as possible 'overall'.
The catch 22 is I want to preserve and enjoy it for the rest of MY life in hopes to maybe actually pass it on to my son. This means I am NOT dealing with unsafe old bushings, dry rotted tires, rubber brake lines, linings, seals, etc etc. I don't want to deal with points - rather a Pertronix setup and keep it hidden.
The paint is subjective. My concern is the frame and suspension. I was under the car on a lift. It's still pretty solid overall; but it also bares a fair amount of crust; in a lot of places.
Long term goals might see a frame off - but I'd much rather and for now; preserve what I have. Generally this means wire wheeling, or blasting and POR15 type paint work.
The value is to ME alone. I'm not selling it ever; its not getting drug across the blocks at an auction with original barn dirt. I want to make it safe, and dependable as near a 'driver' status for him and myself for now.
Am I wrong in these thoughts? Is there a wrong answer here? I could easily have the car survivor certified, likely at a very high level - but does it even matter outside of retail? If I'm to go about cleaning and painting/replacing is there a preferred process/materials?
The last thing I want to do is have the car waste away over time just because. Rust is a cancer to everything; and aside from an oil bath; you kinda need to address it. That and he was always ashamed of how the paint got, the carpet wore and the seats etc etc.
I want to be proud of it with him. So, what the input from the always opinionated Corvette group?
Thanks for reading! Hope to surprise him with it soon
- Tom
I just turned 33. My father who just turned 69 co incidentally purchased a brand new 1969 Stingray in early 1970. Something about a plant strike made his decision vs ordering a gunmetal lt1 1970 model.
The vehicle in question is a 1969 Stingray convertible, L46 350/350 M21 Car. It is Fathom Green with black interior. It has both the soft top and hard top.
I would venture to say the car is 95% all original. I know it got a new top somewhere in the 70s (tore it). The hardtop was white vinyl covered and he painted it body color also in the 70s. That's literally pretty much it. The paint is pretty rough these days with the checking, scuffs etc. The interior is all there and original. Underhood is all original aside from a few hoses, filters etc. It's largely uncleaned.
The tires are still Michelin Xs from the 70s. Its been garaged its entire life; it sat for most of my childhood. Runs and drives well; no smoke, around 93k on it.
Here's where the story gets good. The car was always promised to me and was a big part of my life and influences. Well, after my parents divorced and he had built a new home etc; he decided he was leaving it all and moving to Florida to live with his new girlfriend. I was about 22-23 at the time - fresh out of college with a ton of debt. He sold the car randomly one day while I was at work.
For 10 years he hasn't told me where it was/who he sold it to. He slipped up on his birthday 3 weeks ago and dropped a hint. Well, I managed to track the car down in 4 days and met with the new owner. We've agreed on an amount and I want to buy the car back to keep forever and for my dad to enjoy while I still have him.
It's basically just been stuffed away. Not a whole lot of change but some new dings, and the windshield is now broken (it was delaminating badly in the corner it broke).
Here's my dilemma:
Yes, its cool to have a survivor. Its like driving an old painting or something I guess. I don't really believe in messing with it as far as modifying etc. I'm a big vette freak; and to me, you just don't mess with certain ones. So I want to keep it as close to original as possible 'overall'.
The catch 22 is I want to preserve and enjoy it for the rest of MY life in hopes to maybe actually pass it on to my son. This means I am NOT dealing with unsafe old bushings, dry rotted tires, rubber brake lines, linings, seals, etc etc. I don't want to deal with points - rather a Pertronix setup and keep it hidden.
The paint is subjective. My concern is the frame and suspension. I was under the car on a lift. It's still pretty solid overall; but it also bares a fair amount of crust; in a lot of places.
Long term goals might see a frame off - but I'd much rather and for now; preserve what I have. Generally this means wire wheeling, or blasting and POR15 type paint work.
The value is to ME alone. I'm not selling it ever; its not getting drug across the blocks at an auction with original barn dirt. I want to make it safe, and dependable as near a 'driver' status for him and myself for now.
Am I wrong in these thoughts? Is there a wrong answer here? I could easily have the car survivor certified, likely at a very high level - but does it even matter outside of retail? If I'm to go about cleaning and painting/replacing is there a preferred process/materials?
The last thing I want to do is have the car waste away over time just because. Rust is a cancer to everything; and aside from an oil bath; you kinda need to address it. That and he was always ashamed of how the paint got, the carpet wore and the seats etc etc.
I want to be proud of it with him. So, what the input from the always opinionated Corvette group?
Thanks for reading! Hope to surprise him with it soon
- Tom
03-10-2016, 12:42 AM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
(Mudflaps were DIY in the 70s...they don't attach to the glass) I'll be removing them. Sorry no pictures underneath. I spent about 20 minutes under it and was just too caught up in seeing it again.
03-10-2016, 01:20 PM
#4
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2000
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...I could easily have the car survivor certified, likely at a very high level...
You could also consider Bowtie eligibility through the NCRS.
...but does it even matter...
Looks like an essentially unmolested 69. Congrats.
03-10-2016, 01:24 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I had a feeling it was black. I'd never seen a white one; guessing Dad was confused or my memory is fuzzy.
I appreciate the feedback and congrats. The real reward will be when it's home.
I appreciate the feedback and congrats. The real reward will be when it's home.
03-11-2016, 09:17 AM
#6
Melting Slicks
...
The tires are still Michelin Xs from the 70s. Its been garaged its entire life; it sat for most of my childhood. Runs and drives well; no smoke, around 93k ... ...
The catch 22 is I want to preserve and enjoy it for the rest of MY life in hopes to maybe actually pass it on to my son. This means I am NOT dealing with unsafe old bushings, dry rotted tires, rubber brake lines, linings, seals, etc etc. I don't want to deal with points - rather a Pertronix setup and keep it hidden.
The paint is subjective. My concern is the frame and suspension. I was under the car on a lift. It's still pretty solid overall; but it also bares a fair amount of crust; in a lot of places.
Long term goals might see a frame off - but I'd much rather and for now; preserve what I have. Generally this means wire wheeling, or blasting and POR15 type paint work.
The value is to ME alone. I'm not selling it ever; its not getting drug across the blocks at an auction with original barn dirt. I want to make it safe, and dependable as near a 'driver' status for him and myself for now.
Am I wrong in these thoughts? Is there a wrong answer here? I could easily have the car survivor certified, likely at a very high level - but does it even matter outside of retail? If I'm to go about cleaning and painting/replacing is there a preferred process/materials?
....
- Tom
The tires are still Michelin Xs from the 70s. Its been garaged its entire life; it sat for most of my childhood. Runs and drives well; no smoke, around 93k ... ...
The catch 22 is I want to preserve and enjoy it for the rest of MY life in hopes to maybe actually pass it on to my son. This means I am NOT dealing with unsafe old bushings, dry rotted tires, rubber brake lines, linings, seals, etc etc. I don't want to deal with points - rather a Pertronix setup and keep it hidden.
The paint is subjective. My concern is the frame and suspension. I was under the car on a lift. It's still pretty solid overall; but it also bares a fair amount of crust; in a lot of places.
Long term goals might see a frame off - but I'd much rather and for now; preserve what I have. Generally this means wire wheeling, or blasting and POR15 type paint work.
The value is to ME alone. I'm not selling it ever; its not getting drug across the blocks at an auction with original barn dirt. I want to make it safe, and dependable as near a 'driver' status for him and myself for now.
Am I wrong in these thoughts? Is there a wrong answer here? I could easily have the car survivor certified, likely at a very high level - but does it even matter outside of retail? If I'm to go about cleaning and painting/replacing is there a preferred process/materials?
....
- Tom
Seems like you want to enjoy driving the car not just looking at it. I would repair the car so that it could be used, then you and your Dad (and son) can make new memories.
Restore the car as you see fit, take it back to stock or modify it. It is YOUR car. NCRS judging manuals (Flight judging) that describe the original appearance of the car are useful.
I would start with an assessment of what needs repair for safety sake and get that done first. Then mechanical repairs/maintenance, and finally cosmetics.
Sounds like a nice father/son project. There are already too many Corvettes just sitting around being garage art. I rather have memories of driving my Corvette than looking at my Corvette and Survivors are looked at Corvettes.
03-12-2016, 12:06 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
NCRS has successfully ruined what should be fun. I remember being a little kid riding "3rd wheel" on the ebrake cover. Probably why it's cracked. I wouldn't give that memory for the world.
No, I am anti garage art. I like to make things as nice as possible; but then I use them. If I break it having fun, I rebuild stronger. I don't purposely go out in a rainstorm; but if it rains it gets wet. My father drove all over the country in that car. These prized BB cars left to suffer a fate of mothballs, constant judging, and auctions just to pad some guys wallet need to end. These cars were dreams and aspirations; not rolling oil paintings to be snobbed over only by those who can afford them.
Thanks; I'll look into the books for sure. Even if I was to do a resto; it would only be to reset the life clock on the car.
Last edited by RSbeast; 03-12-2016 at 12:07 AM.
03-12-2016, 12:06 PM
#8
Race Director
It looks like you have a nice solid original car, and it probably is a survivor candidate.
No one expects a 40-50 year old car to still have it's original hoses, plugs, tires etc. Both Bloomington and the NCRS allow for some repair and restoration, while still being eligible for Bow Tie/Survivor judging. Cars are driven, things wear out and stuff happens to them, some have even been in accidents. There are plenty of "survivor" cars out there that have had some paint touch up, torn seat covers repaired, or a piece of weatherstrip or a wheel cover replaced.
No one expects a survivor to be covered in old dirt, grease or grime either. It's perfectly acceptable to clean the engine compartment and undercarriage, in fact it's advisable and even expected. The idea is to clean enough to see the original finishes and markings. As such, rust and pealing paint are preferable to repainting things. But if you do want the car to remain a "survivor", don't go wire brushing anything, and DON'T use POR-15 on it (personally, I wouldn't use POR-15 on any car, I know a lot of people love the stuff, I'm just not one of them). If you want to clean it up, use some Gunk and water, a soft brush, 409 or similar cleaning solution, and a little elbow grease, to get back to the original finishes.
In the end, it's your car, and you can do with it what you want. If it were me, for now I would clean it up, make it safe and enjoy it. Later, I might think about doing a proper restoration. I am someone who appreciates original unrestored cars, but a car that's as complete and original as your 69, would also be a very easy restoration.
The NCRS hasn't ruined anything. The NCRS doesn't set values, and they don't require anyone to turn their car into a garage or trailer queen. In fact, the NCRS rewards extra points, for owners who drive their cars to NCRS meets. If a person decides that they want a trailer queen, that's their decision, not the NCRS'. I have a friend who's an NCRS Master Judge (200+ judging points), who has a 99.2 % Duntov winning 67 coupe, and he drives it everywhere.
The NCRS is no more responsible for how an owner values or uses a 67 big block, than the Late Great Chevys club is for how someone uses their 58 Impala convertible, or the Shelby American Automobile Club is for what someone does with their 65 GT350R.
If you want to blame someone for craziness in the car hobby, try the Wall Street Journal. They told the world in 78, to go buy 78 Corvette Pace Cars, and in the 90's they told investors to buy 67 big blocks, instead of stocks.
You want to know who really ruined the hobby? It wasn't the NCRS, or any other car club, it was/is the auctions. It's the Mecum's, the Barrett-Jackson's, and the Goodings'. It's the TV networks that show the auctions, it's the buyers that over pay so that they can get on TV and brag about what they spent. It's also the websites and magazines, that promote the auction results, the TV shows about finding and flipping cars, and it's the person that sits and watches the broadcasts thinking their 67 Nova is worth $250,000, because they saw a 67 Corvette sell for that.
I'm sorry about my rant, but the NCRS is just a club. They put together a set of judging standards, based on how they think Corvettes were originally built. There is nothing in the world that requires you, or anyone else, to restore your car to their standards. It's your car, and it's you're decision whether to restore it, drive it, modify it, or have it judged at an NCRS meet. Do what makes you happy, and let the next guy enjoy the NCRS, if that's what he likes!
No one expects a 40-50 year old car to still have it's original hoses, plugs, tires etc. Both Bloomington and the NCRS allow for some repair and restoration, while still being eligible for Bow Tie/Survivor judging. Cars are driven, things wear out and stuff happens to them, some have even been in accidents. There are plenty of "survivor" cars out there that have had some paint touch up, torn seat covers repaired, or a piece of weatherstrip or a wheel cover replaced.
No one expects a survivor to be covered in old dirt, grease or grime either. It's perfectly acceptable to clean the engine compartment and undercarriage, in fact it's advisable and even expected. The idea is to clean enough to see the original finishes and markings. As such, rust and pealing paint are preferable to repainting things. But if you do want the car to remain a "survivor", don't go wire brushing anything, and DON'T use POR-15 on it (personally, I wouldn't use POR-15 on any car, I know a lot of people love the stuff, I'm just not one of them). If you want to clean it up, use some Gunk and water, a soft brush, 409 or similar cleaning solution, and a little elbow grease, to get back to the original finishes.
In the end, it's your car, and you can do with it what you want. If it were me, for now I would clean it up, make it safe and enjoy it. Later, I might think about doing a proper restoration. I am someone who appreciates original unrestored cars, but a car that's as complete and original as your 69, would also be a very easy restoration.
The NCRS is no more responsible for how an owner values or uses a 67 big block, than the Late Great Chevys club is for how someone uses their 58 Impala convertible, or the Shelby American Automobile Club is for what someone does with their 65 GT350R.
If you want to blame someone for craziness in the car hobby, try the Wall Street Journal. They told the world in 78, to go buy 78 Corvette Pace Cars, and in the 90's they told investors to buy 67 big blocks, instead of stocks.
You want to know who really ruined the hobby? It wasn't the NCRS, or any other car club, it was/is the auctions. It's the Mecum's, the Barrett-Jackson's, and the Goodings'. It's the TV networks that show the auctions, it's the buyers that over pay so that they can get on TV and brag about what they spent. It's also the websites and magazines, that promote the auction results, the TV shows about finding and flipping cars, and it's the person that sits and watches the broadcasts thinking their 67 Nova is worth $250,000, because they saw a 67 Corvette sell for that.
I'm sorry about my rant, but the NCRS is just a club. They put together a set of judging standards, based on how they think Corvettes were originally built. There is nothing in the world that requires you, or anyone else, to restore your car to their standards. It's your car, and it's you're decision whether to restore it, drive it, modify it, or have it judged at an NCRS meet. Do what makes you happy, and let the next guy enjoy the NCRS, if that's what he likes!
03-12-2016, 12:55 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Gbvette62
- Thank you for the reply. Sorry about my angst there; I guess I just feel like they set the standards of value by conformity. By creating an imposed value in a 'survivor' you chop out the middle ground between driving what is there and a full on resto. You also limit the attention paid to areas that would benefit from mild forms of preservation. You simply can't beat physics. Nothing only stays 'so rusty'.
I agree the auctions have really askewed pricing and the 'look what I was able to pay for' factors of the cars. I often wonder though how values will maintain after the baby boomer generation; who has strongly influenced all things mentioned, passes on.
Aside from unattainable cost; is there much youth interest in older Corvettes? Only time will tell I suppose.
Anyhow, I'll be sure to post pictures in great detail in what I have to work with; as it's hard to garnish full opinion without seeing.
- Thank you for the reply. Sorry about my angst there; I guess I just feel like they set the standards of value by conformity. By creating an imposed value in a 'survivor' you chop out the middle ground between driving what is there and a full on resto. You also limit the attention paid to areas that would benefit from mild forms of preservation. You simply can't beat physics. Nothing only stays 'so rusty'.
I agree the auctions have really askewed pricing and the 'look what I was able to pay for' factors of the cars. I often wonder though how values will maintain after the baby boomer generation; who has strongly influenced all things mentioned, passes on.
Aside from unattainable cost; is there much youth interest in older Corvettes? Only time will tell I suppose.
Anyhow, I'll be sure to post pictures in great detail in what I have to work with; as it's hard to garnish full opinion without seeing.
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ronkh57 (11-13-2016)
04-08-2016, 10:05 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
As I see it there are several catagories available: Survivor, Bow Tie and who knows what else.
The one status that seems to get ignored is "RESTORED". Sounds like that is where you want to go. Repair everything to factory otiginal. Don't use POR, paint it the way the factory did. You can do small bits at a time and still be able to drive at least part of the year. I thought about trying to get survivor status but for me restored is more what I want.
I know a guy with a '62 vette with 4, 000 miles. I'm happy for him. Beautiful car sits in a garage under a cover. His own little corvette museum! I'm happier with my 78 that I drive and fix up over the winter.
Ive got a nose and an opinion. You ask for opinions and mine, if this car was mine, would be to drive it and restore it.
ENJOY
The one status that seems to get ignored is "RESTORED". Sounds like that is where you want to go. Repair everything to factory otiginal. Don't use POR, paint it the way the factory did. You can do small bits at a time and still be able to drive at least part of the year. I thought about trying to get survivor status but for me restored is more what I want.
I know a guy with a '62 vette with 4, 000 miles. I'm happy for him. Beautiful car sits in a garage under a cover. His own little corvette museum! I'm happier with my 78 that I drive and fix up over the winter.
Ive got a nose and an opinion. You ask for opinions and mine, if this car was mine, would be to drive it and restore it.
ENJOY
04-08-2016, 10:21 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input. Hoping to fianlly get it home next weekend...been a long struggle dealing with the money end.
Do the judging manuals entail the proper colors for painting things?
Do the judging manuals entail the proper colors for painting things?
04-27-2016, 11:19 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
For anyone following along; I got the car home the Saturday before last. Going to start a thread in C3 General. Thoughts on the frame is still up in the air. Plans on keeping it 'stock appearing' are winning so far.
Beyond excited to have it back.
Beyond excited to have it back.
06-28-2016, 09:13 PM
#14
Race Director
My vote is with the "make it safe, clean it up and drive it" crowd. 
07-04-2016, 03:54 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Tires are a must...still deciding if I want to spend $400 a tire on Cokers or turn some BFGs letters in.
Sorry I've been so lazy about making a continuation thread on this. I've about 400 some odd progress pictures uploaded on my facebook. I just got the car out on the road for the first 'real' time Friday but a totally wrong Qjet and coil gave me fits and are back off. I finally got the #s matching original carb back from the seller Saturday and was able to match up a replacement until I can rebuild the original. New coil should be here Tuesday for round #2. (I decided to lose the points for now and ran a Ignitor II pertronix setup, but they need a .06 ohm coil vs my 1.5 MSD...or the 2.6 worn out Borg Warner one that it wore.
Sorry I've been so lazy about making a continuation thread on this. I've about 400 some odd progress pictures uploaded on my facebook. I just got the car out on the road for the first 'real' time Friday but a totally wrong Qjet and coil gave me fits and are back off. I finally got the #s matching original carb back from the seller Saturday and was able to match up a replacement until I can rebuild the original. New coil should be here Tuesday for round #2. (I decided to lose the points for now and ran a Ignitor II pertronix setup, but they need a .06 ohm coil vs my 1.5 MSD...or the 2.6 worn out Borg Warner one that it wore.
07-06-2016, 10:34 PM
#18
Drifting
Beautiful car and great find! Make 'er streetable and enjoy it. 69's small blocks are nicely balanced cars. I almost bought one similar to yours from (legendary) Larry Park.
