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Old 08-13-2011, 04:46 PM   #61
Robby79
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Interesting thread. Rereading your first thread. Suggest you revisit the air flow/fan speed. We don't know enough about your system? Txv ? Capillary? Fixed orifice? Variable speed fan? Two speed compressor? But air flow can be too much or too little impacting the systems ability to remove heat and moisture from the conditioned air. Have the installer do a targeted superheat calculation when you are dripping. Compare results to actual superheat or subcool at condenser.
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Old 08-13-2011, 04:52 PM   #62
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Using the sketch in post#36:
If the problem was the main drain, water would come out of open tee. It's not
Trap separation is 3", it's perfect.
Secondary drain hole is plugged. Perfect.
It has to be in the unit itself. Either it is not pitched toward the drain,
Or the drain pan has a crack in it.
I suggest you shut the unit off, remove the door, an slowly pour water into the drain pan.
It should run down the drain line. As long as you don't over fill the pan, NO water should drip from the unit. See if it is running over the side of the pan somewhere. If it's not and it still leaks, then the condensate pan is NFG. (Maybe, I think, who knows) Next step is board up the house and sell!
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Old 08-13-2011, 05:19 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DON M View Post
Until you measure the negative suction pressure with a manometer you are guessing about the trap depth. I would cut your trap exit down to a 4" height difference as depth doesn't matter. Only inlet to outlet height difference matters.
That is what I was referring to. Not the depth of the P.

The whole issue seems pretty simple to me.

Symptom: Unit does not drain properly while running, and water drains out when the unit shuts off.

Diagnosis: The trap is not adequate or there is an air leak before the trap. (Drain pan may have crack but not likley)

Solution: Repair trap by increasing the length of water column the negative pressure must pull against, or fix air leaks before the trap in the piping.

I've already offered a suggestion as to why this occurs regularly, but without additional information about the system, we are all shooting in the dark. The OP seems to have missed or ignored my first post, which in my opinion would be some good things to try before replacing the coil and having the same problem. Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by journeymen; 08-13-2011 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 08-13-2011, 06:10 PM   #64
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Thanks for all the great info. Please understand I am not an A/C guy. I am surprised that out of 4, so far, A/C people that have came out at my expense that none have did anything that's been suggested here. And these are long time reputable companies not some fly by night...

I am trying to keep track of what's been suggested but don't have the equipment or knowledge to perform some of this stuff.

The unit is a Carrier 5 ton heatpump. as far as I know single stage single speed fan motor. House ~2200 - 2400 sqft. Right now I have 4 12x24 filtered return air.

The one thing for sure as far as drama is having to hear this thing drip and the daily dumping of the water from the pot in the return air box. I'd like to be rid of that chore.

As stated earlier going back to the beginning. When the drain tube ran direct without the trap. When I closed the drain vent at the top water poured out the drain hole. After adding the drain trap nothing seemed to change with the behavior of the unit.

Journeyman, I have the filter out since last night and no difference.

The suggesting of lowering the drain exit, where to drain tube is located now at 8" in the drawing I should reduce that leg to where it's 6" meaning the water should exit drain tube sooner? When the unit is running I can stick my finger in the top of the exit Tee and feel water. Am I understanding this correct? this would put the drain tube exit about 4" below the drain outlet of the air handler. Does the trap need to be further apart as well. Right now less than 2" between the legs. Does that need to increase?
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:00 PM   #65
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Sorry-missed the heatpump. What is outlet temperature of the outlet near the evaporator? What is the ambient room temperature? What is the level of humidity in the house? Does it feel cool and dry or cold and damp?
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:07 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLSebring View Post
Journeyman, I have the filter out since last night and no difference.

The suggesting of lowering the drain exit, where to drain tube is located now at 8" in the drawing I should reduce that leg to where it's 6" meaning the water should exit drain tube sooner? When the unit is running I can stick my finger in the top of the exit Tee and feel water. Am I understanding this correct? this would put the drain tube exit about 4" below the drain outlet of the air handler. Does the trap need to be further apart as well. Right now less than 2" between the legs. Does that need to increase?
Using 2 cement couplers, lengthen 10" leg to 14" and make sure air is not leaking in around the cap and any cemented or threaded connection above the trap's water line.
Distance between the legs is irrelevant in this situation.

End result should be that the standing water level in the trap should be 4"+ below the coil's threaded connection. Most fan coils call for an absolute minimum of 2" which I don't think is adequate here.
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:51 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by journeymen View Post
Using 2 cement couplers, lengthen 10" leg to 14" and make sure air is not leaking in around the cap and any cemented or threaded connection above the trap's water line.
Distance between the legs is irrelevant in this situation.

End result should be that the standing water level in the trap should be 4"+ below the coil's threaded connection. Most fan coils call for an absolute minimum of 2" which I don't think is adequate here.
The ones I plumb are usually at least 2 foot difference in height.

You can always take a hose and trickle water onto the coil and watch for the problem. I have run into coils not sitting in the pan properly before, but your a/c guys should have noticed that.

Where's all this humidity coming from, we have at least as much as you. Are you leaking large amounts of ambient air. I have run into a few installations where the ceiling of the a/c closet was completely lacking a ceiling around the plenum and open to the attic. Installed by reputable companies whose installers don't......
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:02 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLSebring View Post
Seems at one time I may have jacked the back of the coil up a little to encourage draining toward the drain hole so that may be working against me now.
I missed this little tid-bit.

Fix this too. Pan shoud drain fine when level.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:47 PM   #69
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This may have some weight, but test should clarify.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RLSebring View Post
I devolted a couple of hours to this delima today. No icing. Dripping like a **** today.

I checked the insulation on the inside of the unit by the a-coil. It was soaking wet. I pulled all the insulation out to see if the condensation could still get sucked up. It apparently did and dripped more than it's ever dripped before.

LArry, Back when I first posted this problem we discussed the tracp. I remember when I put my finger over the straight drain when I removed my finger water ran like crazy. I installedthe trap as instructed and the unit didn't drip for a day or so then started pretty much like it had been.

As I checked the drain today I am not draining at all at th moment until the unit shuts off. Then a combo of the drips and some drainage out the line.

I was looking at an American Standard unit the other day and noticed that it had a vent hole next to the drain line on the bottom of the unit. I asked what it was for and the homeowner said he thought it was to equalize the negative pressure. Is my Carrier suppose to have that? Seems like it's just pulling in unfiltered closet air into the unit.

I have a brand new 3.5 ton a-coil I may see about swapping for a 5 ton and just replace the coil. Maybe I'm still resticted. I know I'm about ready to take this unit to the scrap yard.


Quote:
I have a property service business and we've had a number of problems with cracked drain pans in specific Carrier model Air Conditioners.

The letter from our service tech below.

This is to inform you of the ongoing problem with Carrier model FV4BNF006000AAAA, FV4BNB006000AAAA, FV4BNF005000AAAA drain pans.

This problem of cracking pans is a pattern I started to see in machines 2-3 years old. The failure has always been in the same place. In January 2008 it started to effect pans in machines that were less than a year old. Pans that had been changed were cracking again! Carrier requested that defective pans be returned for inspection and analysis and I sent them six cracked pans. My opinion, as I told them, was that the 35 45 lb. A-coil (depending on the model) combined with the leverage was not properly supported and cracking the plastic pan. Carriers response was that they had no problems anywhere else and not to use chemicals in the pans.

I asked Carrier again for help in July 2008 when the issue continued and
had not been resolved. They sent out a technician who looked over two
installs that had repeat pan cracking. He indicated that there should be
a way to check the weight pressing on the pan and we should not have this
problem in the field as they are made to last and not crack. As far as I
know he made a report and submitted it to Carrier Hawaii though I havent

heard anything from that visit to date.

In the first two weeks of Nov. 2008 I had found (in the course of quarterly
service) 12 cracked pans in my customers homes! On November 12, 2008 Les
(Carrier regional director) and three other staff (Carrier Hawaii) met with
several contractors and service companies on the Big Island having the same
problems. After that meeting there were a few small suggestions (1, Isolate
drain connection with vinyl tubing. 2, Tap down a flange on the A-coil.
3, Install a strap that Bill Gordon and I designed to relive coil weight
pressing on the pan).

I took the Carrier staff to three sites where we had
multiple pan failures. Carriers response (once again) was that they dont
have this problem anywhere else. Carrier warrantee personnel Dodson Leong
(800-757-3668) said warrantees would be case by case. It takes $900.00-$1000.00
to complete the repair. The machines brought in from CSD Carrier California
(not purchased through Carrier Hawaii) would have to be warranted from
California. Les said he would call them and work with them on this issue.
California warrantees were left very open ended and Hawaii did not commit to

a warrantee amount to be paid.

On November 20, 2008 I called CSD Carrier California (866-754-4822) and their warrantee personnel said they did not warrantee drain pans. She had not been
called by Les concerning this pan warrantee. She gave me two numbers of other

people to talk to and I spent 45 minutes getting the run around. I called

Dodson Leong to prompt Les once again to contact the CSD warrantee department.
To date, Les nor CSD Carrier, has called.

I see no guarantee from future cracks in Carrier pans without design correction.

I cannot carry the warrantee of cracked pans if Carrier deems that you are out of warrantee. If I change out your pan there are no guarantees or warrantee made by Tropical Air Conditioning, Inc. that this defect will not show up again. I like the Carrier product for a lot of reasons but this is a problem they must address. Other makers of a/c equipment (Trane, York, Weatherking and Rheem) have plastic pans and

no problems I am aware of.

Please know that you may not get or continue to get a warrantee from Carrier
on your cracked pans. I cannot guarantee that this will not happen several
more times in the future. I will do the protocol (that I told you about in
paragraph 3) on all future installs and repairs. But I cannot warrantee the

part from being defective or my labor for repairing it a second or even third time.

Jay of Kailua-Kona, HI
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:18 AM   #70
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Journeymen, Looking at his sketch on post 36, there is 2" between the 2 legs of the trap BELOW the unit support. Add another inch from the bottom of the unit to the drain fitting and another 1/2 inch for the support, there should be 31/2" between the inlet and outlet of the trap. Redoing the trap will not hurt, but I doubt it will help, if his sketch is correct. Regarding Noonie post, all the Carrier unit he listed are variable speed units, may not be the same as the OP has, but I think the pans are the same in Carrier's line for a given size unit.
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Old 08-14-2011, 10:31 AM   #71
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For what it is worth. If this is a standard Carrier A/U the blower fan speed should be running on the blue motor lead. If it is currently hooked to the black motor lead this will cause it to pull up water. Is this the curcuit board on your indoor unit?

Click the image to open in full size.

If so, these air units normally have 3 speeds to chose from. Black, blue and red. The unused leads will have yellow caps over the ends to insulate them. If on black now try the blue. If on blue now try the red. If memory serves the motor lead is pluged on the terminal by itself on the black relay soldered to the board. Also give your model and serial # on both inside and outside units. If you cannot get this resolved I will contact Carrier tech guys here in Dallas and see who they recommend in your area. What is the age of this system? mike...
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Old 08-14-2011, 11:24 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weathermaker View Post
Journeymen, Looking at his sketch on post 36, there is 2" between the 2 legs of the trap BELOW the unit support. Add another inch from the bottom of the unit to the drain fitting and another 1/2 inch for the support, there should be 31/2" between the inlet and outlet of the trap. Redoing the trap will not hurt, but I doubt it will help, if his sketch is correct. Regarding Noonie post, all the Carrier unit he listed are variable speed units, may not be the same as the OP has, but I think the pans are the same in Carrier's line for a given size unit.
Granted. However, installing $.76 worth of couplers and 10 minutes of labor is a logical 2nd attempt at a fix before condemning the coil/pan.
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Old 08-14-2011, 11:47 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noonie View Post
I
Here's a typical install here. Tee is only there to serve as an elbow and to be able to blow with a garden hose easily. As close to the pan as possible, goes straight down to floor or under slab then the trap is made up outside.
PS, we take the drain as far away as possible from the residence and build the trap there to help prevent termites.

Click the image to open in full size.
that's good to know the tee is uncapped on ours and blowing cold air out.
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Old 08-14-2011, 03:37 PM   #74
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Sorry Guys Brain fart, It's a Tappan not a Carrier.

Here's a shot of the control board. Not far off from the other one posted.

Click the image to open in full size.

I am getting ready to lengthen the drain leg and see how that does.

Unit is 6 years old.
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Old 08-14-2011, 03:47 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
Sure is a lot of drama over a dripping AC here.

I know, Right?
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Old 08-14-2011, 03:51 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robby79 View Post
Sorry-missed the heatpump. What is outlet temperature of the outlet near the evaporator? What is the ambient room temperature? What is the level of humidity in the house? Does it feel cool and dry or cold and damp?
Outside at the evap ~95 ambient degrees, inside set for 78 degress. Very low humidity inside and cool. A/C cycles and keeps the house comfy, cool and dry. Outside humidity is around 90%.

Other than the dripping I don't think I could ask for the unit to work better than it is. Just this annoying dripping and emptying of the pan once or twice a day. Of course that's much better than the several times per day prior to this thread.
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Old 08-14-2011, 04:00 PM   #77
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If the red wire and the black wire go to the fan motor, there is a good chance there is a blue wire coming from the motor that's not being used. If so, the unit runs on high speed for both heating and cooling, then goes on low speed after heat cycle to get all the residual heat into the space. You could switch the black wire for the unused blue wire to go down to the medium speed. However I must say that I thought the unit was relatively new. If this has run this way for 6 years, a lot of what was said may not apply. Some dirt on the coil can reroute the water from going into the pan , etc. I know you said it was cleaned, just sayin'.
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Old 08-14-2011, 04:17 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLSebring View Post
We took out the dinosaur HVAC a couple of years ago and installed new inside and outside heat pump (5 Ton, same tonnage as old unit) 2500 sq.ft house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLSebring View Post
Sorry Guys Brain fart, It's a Tappan not a Carrier...........
Unit is 6 years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by weathermaker View Post
....... If this has run this way for 6 years, a lot of what was said may not apply. Some dirt on the coil can reroute the water from going into the pan , etc. I know you said it was cleaned, just sayin'.
Gotta love internet repairs.
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Old 08-14-2011, 05:31 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weathermaker View Post
If the red wire and the black wire go to the fan motor, there is a good chance there is a blue wire coming from the motor that's not being used. If so, the unit runs on high speed for both heating and cooling, then goes on low speed after heat cycle to get all the residual heat into the space. You could switch the black wire for the unused blue wire to go down to the medium speed. However I must say that I thought the unit was relatively new. If this has run this way for 6 years, a lot of what was said may not apply. Some dirt on the coil can reroute the water from going into the pan , etc. I know you said it was cleaned, just sayin'.
Just Black, Red and White wires coming forom the blower motor.

We did clean it thoroughly. Not sure if we could have gotten it any cleaner. Seems like I had this problem since it was installed from the best I remember.


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Gotta love internet repairs.
Sad thing is I've paid professionals to have this fixed more than a coupe of times now.
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Old 08-14-2011, 05:55 PM   #80
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Ok, so much for calling the Carrier factory guys. Is there a Tappan doctor in the house? Looks like the bottom relay supplies the power and the top relay decides to run on high or low blower speed. If the black and red wires on the top relay go directly to the blower motor switch them so blower runs on red for cool and black for heat and see if water stops. Try this at your own peril as I do not know the Tappan products very well. Sorry. Do you have a wiring diagram for this air unit? If so post it so we can see it. mike...

Last edited by mds3013; 08-14-2011 at 06:13 PM.
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