Used car law suite
04-02-2013, 10:18 AM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
Used car law suite
Anyway long story shot my dad bought a used car (2001 Chrysler Sebring 2.7L V6 Automatic) but he never even got home (40 miles) with it because the engine seized up because it had seized up before and just filled up with oil and sold. Our law here says that this is a hidden flaw and that if the buyer wants they can return the car and get their money back. Of course the guy was evasive and uncooperative so eventually after a few months trying to reach an agreement my dad decided to take him to court. Suing him to take back the vehicle and return the money plus costs that recurred. My dad was actually just asking back for the cost of the car and was willing to cover the other expenses.
Now that it has gone to court they're basing their deference on stupid statements like my dad didn't know how to use an automatic transmission and that in fact almost 900 miles were driven with the car. They weren't not even 40 miles.
Anyway I have a Chrysler Cirrus as my daily driver and I know a lot about it and I'm assuming this Sebring is very similar since what I know about cars in general seems to apply to most.
The judge has ordered a car specialist to examine the car and present his findings about what caused the catastrophic engine failure but I'm not sure that I have faith in the knowledge these guys possess about US made vehicles.
Before the law suite my dad took the car to a dealership and had it looked over to determine the cause of failure. They did state that the engine seized up due to the crank shaft bearings seizing and that the damage had accrued previously. In result the car was damaged before it had be bought. But they screwed something up. When we bought it we never noted the mileage on the odometer and the DMV doesn't require an accurate number but proximate. When the car was checked they screwed up the mileage they wrote in the report a mileage that was almost a 1000 miles higher than on the odometer.
But when we left I asked the seller if we had to check the oil and transmission fluid before we left and he assured me that he looked at it and everything was aok. But lest than 6 miles away we stopped at a pizzeria to get something to eat when the car died on the parking lot. So I checked the oil level and saw that there was not enough oil. Thankfully I had a liter of oil for my car and added some and then the car ran fine again. But after it broke down about 18 miles away it again didn't have enough oil. So the engine was burning oil like crazy.
So I was wondering if any of you guys that might know a lot about cars (in particular Chrylers) would be willing to help me understand a few things and maybe find a couple of facts about these cars, engines and transmissions.
Please bear with me I've read lots and lots about car but I'm never sure what it's really fact or just fiction.
1th question:
For example I know that the transmission in my 98 Cirrus is very durable as far as usability and breaking it goes.
I know that even if I leave the transmission in 1th gear and accelerate it will automatically shift up to prevent damage and will not allow you to downshift manually if the speed is to high for the transmission to handle in a lower gear. And that there is no problem with shifting from drive to neutral and back during the vehicle is in motion. Once by accident I shifted from manual trough drive and neutral into reverse on the highway. While I was expecting that I had catastrophically damaged the transmission nothing actually happened. I'm guessing that even though the shifter moved to revers the transmission didn't obey the the command in order to prevent damage. And I've read that it is impossible to shift to park while the engine is running or until the ignition key has been turned to lock position.
Am I correct that in assuming these facts are true and that the same would apply to the Sebrings transmission since they're both manufactured by the same manufacturer?
And am I correct in assuming that there is a virtually no way in breaking the engine buy abusing the transmission? If anything the transmission would have given out before the engine and not the other way around?
2nd question:
A few year back I had my ECU died in my Cirrus and one of the members here (ED77KATR) helped me get a replacement from the US.
Anyway when I removed my old broken ECU I remember that the odometer was still showing my accurate mileage even though the ECU was removed form the car and when I ordered the ECU from a company in the States I had to provide my exact mileage and VIN in order for them to program the new ECU.
So am I right in assuming that there are two separate odometers in the car? One in the gauge cluster in the odometer and another in the ECU and they don't actually have to have the same value?
For example if I were to take out my gauge cluster and put in another one the mileage of the other car would be shown but the ECU would still retain the original mileage or vice verse? Or am I wrong?
Assuming the two cars have a similar working of the ECU or don't they?
3ed question:
It's regarding the 2nd question.
If the 2nd question was true it would account for the discrepancy in the odometer in the Sebring and the report of the dealer if the read the mileage directly from the ECU. Since I know European cars can have their odometers changed by screamers I'm guessing that so can US cars.
If someone were to turn back the odometer on the gauge cluster and not know that there's another gauge in the ECU (if it exists) there would be a difference between them?
4th question:
Now this one I read somewhere and I've really got no idea if there's any trough to it.
I read that the ECU keeps a record of stuff that happens with the cars operation. And that this log is numbered sequentially (1th line, 2nd line,... 202nd line, etc.) and even if someone were to tamper with the logs it would be reflected in a log with non consequential records (1st, 2nd, 3ed, 7th, 10th lines).
I've seen these type of records in some equipment and even if someone deleted records you could see the type of dependency I described above.
Is this true or not?
5th question:
My ex's dad had a car that the engine seized up but they didn't figure it out because engine had enough of oil that it was still running and while someone would have picked up on the car not working as it should have they didn't.
Now my question is could the sealer have had the car seize up on him and then just filed it up with some oil and tried and sell it?
This was the what was implied by the mechanics at the dealership.
6th question:
What does it mean if the engine is burning oil. As in 1 liter in less than 20 miles?
I'd be really great full to anybody that would give me any information on my questions, confirm my assumptions or at least tell me where I could read up on this so that I'll be able to prepare the questions for my dad's lawyer to ask the car specialist in order to see if he know what he's talking about.
It really pisses me off that a scumbag sold my dad a busted car after I don't know how many years that he decided to get something not completely busted up. And I feel a little guilty since it's also a little my fault that he decided on a Chrysler since I had always been going on how well mine was working and how I love my Vette and that there was no way I was ever going back to something non US without an automatic transmission and at least a V6 engine. My pure dad has had to cough up extra money for the law suite and all the
Thanks again for participating, help and reading the story.
Best regards
Now that it has gone to court they're basing their deference on stupid statements like my dad didn't know how to use an automatic transmission and that in fact almost 900 miles were driven with the car. They weren't not even 40 miles.
Anyway I have a Chrysler Cirrus as my daily driver and I know a lot about it and I'm assuming this Sebring is very similar since what I know about cars in general seems to apply to most.
The judge has ordered a car specialist to examine the car and present his findings about what caused the catastrophic engine failure but I'm not sure that I have faith in the knowledge these guys possess about US made vehicles.
Before the law suite my dad took the car to a dealership and had it looked over to determine the cause of failure. They did state that the engine seized up due to the crank shaft bearings seizing and that the damage had accrued previously. In result the car was damaged before it had be bought. But they screwed something up. When we bought it we never noted the mileage on the odometer and the DMV doesn't require an accurate number but proximate. When the car was checked they screwed up the mileage they wrote in the report a mileage that was almost a 1000 miles higher than on the odometer.
But when we left I asked the seller if we had to check the oil and transmission fluid before we left and he assured me that he looked at it and everything was aok. But lest than 6 miles away we stopped at a pizzeria to get something to eat when the car died on the parking lot. So I checked the oil level and saw that there was not enough oil. Thankfully I had a liter of oil for my car and added some and then the car ran fine again. But after it broke down about 18 miles away it again didn't have enough oil. So the engine was burning oil like crazy.
So I was wondering if any of you guys that might know a lot about cars (in particular Chrylers) would be willing to help me understand a few things and maybe find a couple of facts about these cars, engines and transmissions.
Please bear with me I've read lots and lots about car but I'm never sure what it's really fact or just fiction.
1th question:
For example I know that the transmission in my 98 Cirrus is very durable as far as usability and breaking it goes.
I know that even if I leave the transmission in 1th gear and accelerate it will automatically shift up to prevent damage and will not allow you to downshift manually if the speed is to high for the transmission to handle in a lower gear. And that there is no problem with shifting from drive to neutral and back during the vehicle is in motion. Once by accident I shifted from manual trough drive and neutral into reverse on the highway. While I was expecting that I had catastrophically damaged the transmission nothing actually happened. I'm guessing that even though the shifter moved to revers the transmission didn't obey the the command in order to prevent damage. And I've read that it is impossible to shift to park while the engine is running or until the ignition key has been turned to lock position.
Am I correct that in assuming these facts are true and that the same would apply to the Sebrings transmission since they're both manufactured by the same manufacturer?
And am I correct in assuming that there is a virtually no way in breaking the engine buy abusing the transmission? If anything the transmission would have given out before the engine and not the other way around?
2nd question:
A few year back I had my ECU died in my Cirrus and one of the members here (ED77KATR) helped me get a replacement from the US.
Anyway when I removed my old broken ECU I remember that the odometer was still showing my accurate mileage even though the ECU was removed form the car and when I ordered the ECU from a company in the States I had to provide my exact mileage and VIN in order for them to program the new ECU.
So am I right in assuming that there are two separate odometers in the car? One in the gauge cluster in the odometer and another in the ECU and they don't actually have to have the same value?
For example if I were to take out my gauge cluster and put in another one the mileage of the other car would be shown but the ECU would still retain the original mileage or vice verse? Or am I wrong?
Assuming the two cars have a similar working of the ECU or don't they?
3ed question:
It's regarding the 2nd question.
If the 2nd question was true it would account for the discrepancy in the odometer in the Sebring and the report of the dealer if the read the mileage directly from the ECU. Since I know European cars can have their odometers changed by screamers I'm guessing that so can US cars.
If someone were to turn back the odometer on the gauge cluster and not know that there's another gauge in the ECU (if it exists) there would be a difference between them?
4th question:
Now this one I read somewhere and I've really got no idea if there's any trough to it.
I read that the ECU keeps a record of stuff that happens with the cars operation. And that this log is numbered sequentially (1th line, 2nd line,... 202nd line, etc.) and even if someone were to tamper with the logs it would be reflected in a log with non consequential records (1st, 2nd, 3ed, 7th, 10th lines).
I've seen these type of records in some equipment and even if someone deleted records you could see the type of dependency I described above.
Is this true or not?
5th question:
My ex's dad had a car that the engine seized up but they didn't figure it out because engine had enough of oil that it was still running and while someone would have picked up on the car not working as it should have they didn't.
Now my question is could the sealer have had the car seize up on him and then just filed it up with some oil and tried and sell it?
This was the what was implied by the mechanics at the dealership.
6th question:
What does it mean if the engine is burning oil. As in 1 liter in less than 20 miles?
I'd be really great full to anybody that would give me any information on my questions, confirm my assumptions or at least tell me where I could read up on this so that I'll be able to prepare the questions for my dad's lawyer to ask the car specialist in order to see if he know what he's talking about.
It really pisses me off that a scumbag sold my dad a busted car after I don't know how many years that he decided to get something not completely busted up. And I feel a little guilty since it's also a little my fault that he decided on a Chrysler since I had always been going on how well mine was working and how I love my Vette and that there was no way I was ever going back to something non US without an automatic transmission and at least a V6 engine. My pure dad has had to cough up extra money for the law suite and all the
Thanks again for participating, help and reading the story.
Best regards
04-02-2013, 10:03 PM
#2
Drifting
Member Since: May 2006
Location: Wildwood Crest New Jersey
Posts: 1,794
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As for your first Question.. anyone can drive a Automatic.. Just tell the Judge that the Family owns 2 other Automatic cars ,,US Cars also. That you do KNOW how to drive a automatic! ............. Next Question. The 2.7L Engine in those Chryslers were Bad Engines to Begin with. Chrysler recalled them.Also pays out $$$$ to cover their Failures in some cases. I believe you need to be the original owner, and have all Oil Change receipts. Don't know if it applies to US Built cars in Europe. Look online for info on those 2.7L Engines ... hope it Helps. Good Luck in court. Wish I was back "Home" in Slovienia to help you. ED
04-02-2013, 10:43 PM
#3
Drifting
I feel bad for your Dad, but when buying a 12 year old car you are taking a chance and when that same car was a cheap car when new, you are taking a huge chance. Sebring's are diposable cars built primarily for car rental companys.
When I was in the car business, most Chrysler products I saw were starting to fail at 5 years or 60,000 miles what ever had come first.
To knowingly sell a bad car no matter how cheap is bad business and I hope you dad wins.
When I was in the car business, most Chrysler products I saw were starting to fail at 5 years or 60,000 miles what ever had come first.
To knowingly sell a bad car no matter how cheap is bad business and I hope you dad wins.
04-03-2013, 07:23 AM
#4
Pro
Thread Starter
Thanks Ed, hope you visit soon. 
I did tell the defendants lawyer when I was called to the stand and he asked me whether it was explained to my dad by the seller how to operate an automatic transmission I said that I don't remember probably he said something but I didn't see a need to elaborate on the subject since my dad is fully capable of driving a manual and also had automatics before and drives my cars that are automatics. But you know how the lawyers are they let you answer only the stuff they need you to. That's why I'm on this fact finding mission.
I know the 2.7 engines were not good but I figure with normal use and regular maintenance they probably ran just fine.
Zee0hSix thanks.
I know that these cars were not top end cars but comparing to most crap that passes on around here for cars I'd much rather have a 12 or 15 year old V6 Chrysler than one of the newer crappy almost engined diesel cars with no options costing a fortune.
I've got a 98 Cirrus with almost 210000 miles on it and it runs just fine. Yes it's a little rusted, yes the exhaust has more wholes than Swiss cheese and yes the servo pump started making a yawning noise this winter but the engine and transmission are still running really well and comparing to other Euro crap that I could buy for the same money this car was one of the best deals ever.
I know it's a risk buying a used car in any case and even my dad says that if he had driven ti for at least a couple of days he'd had said ok I made a mistake shame on me. But he didn't even get home and while the car by it's self was not that expensive all the expenses concerning the car and the law suite have added up to over $10000. And I think that I could find a better way to spend or invest 10 grand than throwing it out of the window.
The sad thing about the whole thing is that with every day I'm losing more and more faith in the legal system, governments and in general the society. It's all become a little pointless since none of these things function anymore the way they should.
I'm just hoping that the expert the court appointed is in fact an expert and not just some suppose know it all that doesn't know anything and screws my dad further.
Thanks for the help guys.
I did tell the defendants lawyer when I was called to the stand and he asked me whether it was explained to my dad by the seller how to operate an automatic transmission I said that I don't remember probably he said something but I didn't see a need to elaborate on the subject since my dad is fully capable of driving a manual and also had automatics before and drives my cars that are automatics. But you know how the lawyers are they let you answer only the stuff they need you to. That's why I'm on this fact finding mission.
I know the 2.7 engines were not good but I figure with normal use and regular maintenance they probably ran just fine.
Zee0hSix thanks.
I know that these cars were not top end cars but comparing to most crap that passes on around here for cars I'd much rather have a 12 or 15 year old V6 Chrysler than one of the newer crappy almost engined diesel cars with no options costing a fortune.
I've got a 98 Cirrus with almost 210000 miles on it and it runs just fine. Yes it's a little rusted, yes the exhaust has more wholes than Swiss cheese and yes the servo pump started making a yawning noise this winter but the engine and transmission are still running really well and comparing to other Euro crap that I could buy for the same money this car was one of the best deals ever.
I know it's a risk buying a used car in any case and even my dad says that if he had driven ti for at least a couple of days he'd had said ok I made a mistake shame on me. But he didn't even get home and while the car by it's self was not that expensive all the expenses concerning the car and the law suite have added up to over $10000. And I think that I could find a better way to spend or invest 10 grand than throwing it out of the window.
The sad thing about the whole thing is that with every day I'm losing more and more faith in the legal system, governments and in general the society. It's all become a little pointless since none of these things function anymore the way they should.
I'm just hoping that the expert the court appointed is in fact an expert and not just some suppose know it all that doesn't know anything and screws my dad further.
Thanks for the help guys.
04-03-2013, 09:03 AM
#5
Drifting
Member Since: May 2006
Location: Wildwood Crest New Jersey
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The Chryslers were very Durable Good cars, with the exception of that Mitsubishi Based 2.7L engine they used for a few short years. Hopefully the courts force the previous owner to take car back. But if he settles with $$$$$ and lets ya keep car Put the good Chrysler 3.5L Engine in it. or just sell whats left.. ......... or swap your Cirrus drivetrain into it!
04-03-2013, 01:35 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
The Chryslers were very Durable Good cars, with the exception of that Mitsubishi Based 2.7L engine they used for a few short years. Hopefully the courts force the previous owner to take car back. But if he settles with $$$$$ and lets ya keep car Put the good Chrysler 3.5L Engine in it. or just sell whats left.. ......... or swap your Cirrus drivetrain into it!
It's crazy because my dad now has to pay storage for it since you can't get it registered because it doesn't run and if it's not registered you can't keep it on a parking lot because the idiots tow it witch they did already causing another $500 in expenses.
My dad really has a bad luck with cars he buys comparing to me. The last one I bought half way around the world without even seeing it and it was great.
I just don't know what to have my dad's lawyer ask the car expert.
If the so called expert doesn't show much expertize in this field to prove that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm afraid that because of the lack of knowledge with all the parties (judge, car expert, defense and my dad's lawyers) the defense lawyer would say that my dad busted the car because he didn't know what he was doing proved by the so called expert and then my dad's lawyer wouldn't know how to respond causing the judge not to see that the seller was trying to unload a busted car on an suspecting buyer. Because of this reason I made my dad send the seller a memo the very next morning stating the facts of what happened and that he would like to undo the sale. But I guess nothing an honest person does these days is go enough but if you're a scam artist then it's great.
I think I'll keep my Cirrus. I've done almost 100000 miles since I got it and it's still running great. All I'd have to do is do some body work, get the exhaust fixed and a few other miner details.
But you know what I would do with it if I could?
Stick in a HEMI V8 out of a 300C and make it a RWD and make it into a coupe.
Of course if I had the money to do that I'd just get myself some other coupe with a V8 and RWD. Oh wait I've already got one.
Thanks for the help.