Thread for all the Porsche guys lurking here
09-29-2013, 03:28 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Thread for all the Porsche guys lurking here
I know this is the C7 forum but there are so many Porsche comparisons I get irritated because so much of what is posted is based on magazine articles rather than the truth. The following post says it better than I could:
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The only Porsches that handled close to modern vettes were the 924/44 that interestingly had the same transaxle design that the c5 was probably copied from.
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Is the Porsche 911 " experience" with an engine that is always trying to go where the front of the car is in turns, with a PDK, worth TWICE as much as a C7/A6 for the 90 percent of us who only drive on the street. Not even close( I had a new 2003 996TT that I drove for 5 years and replaced with an 08Z. IMHO, the 911 is a bad design that is waay overpriced and for a street car, I much preferred the 08Z for a one with the car experience. Not to mention, if you forget and lift when starting to skid in a turn, the 08Z won't instantly snap oversteer if the nannies aren't on to save you.)
09-30-2013, 09:51 AM
#5
Race Director
I recall in the late 80s when Porsche airlifted a C4 to Germany to find out why it was spanking the 911s of that time period in numerous races.
The seat and interior complaints about Corvette are being silenced, now that the C7 has been introduced. Will a heavier, front engine car ever have the same steering as a rear or mid-engine car of lighter weight? Probably not, but certainly, lots of other performance-related features can be as good or better.
As a side note: The best steering feel from a front wheel drive car may very well be from the 2014 Mazda 3.
The seat and interior complaints about Corvette are being silenced, now that the C7 has been introduced. Will a heavier, front engine car ever have the same steering as a rear or mid-engine car of lighter weight? Probably not, but certainly, lots of other performance-related features can be as good or better.
As a side note: The best steering feel from a front wheel drive car may very well be from the 2014 Mazda 3.
09-30-2013, 10:00 AM
#6
Safety Car
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09-30-2013, 02:32 PM
#7
I like how writers of "the truth" never have their names referenced for what is posted. At least the magazines have the ***** to attach names to their articles. The quote itself is confusing:
For the way 90 percent of buyers (probably more) who use these cars primarily for the street, the engine trying to pass the front will likely never even be an issue.
Here's a recommendation: When driving a rear-engined car, don't forget and lift when starting to skid in a turn. I'm sure there are some common-sense warnings about treating a high-hp front-engined RWD car with respect too. In any case, skidding into turns is something that should probably be left to the track (where "90 percent of us" don't even drive), unless you have the experience of a seasoned journalist, racing driver, or vehicle engineer (which I'm guessing 99% of us do not).
The guy bought the 996TT so it seems the price was worth it to him, and that sort of defies his logic that Porsches are way overpriced. Seems to me that if you honestly think something is not priced right, you would then be behaving in a totally inconsistent manner to actually pay into the very system that inflates its price, and thus justify its price with your voting dollars.
Is the Porsche 911 'experience' with an engine that is always trying to go where the front of the car is in turns, with a PDK, worth TWICE as much as a C7/A6 for the 90 percent of us who only drive on the street. Not even close.
Not to mention, if you forget and lift when starting to skid in a turn, the 08Z won't instantly snap oversteer if the nannies aren't on to save you.
The guy bought the 996TT so it seems the price was worth it to him, and that sort of defies his logic that Porsches are way overpriced. Seems to me that if you honestly think something is not priced right, you would then be behaving in a totally inconsistent manner to actually pay into the very system that inflates its price, and thus justify its price with your voting dollars.
10-01-2013, 11:31 AM
#8
Le Mans Master
I like how writers of "the truth" never have their names referenced for what is posted. At least the magazines have the ***** to attach names to their articles. The quote itself is confusing:
For the way 90 percent of buyers (probably more) who use these cars primarily for the street, the engine trying to pass the front will likely never even be an issue.
Here's a recommendation: When driving a rear-engined car, don't forget and lift when starting to skid in a turn. I'm sure there are some common-sense warnings about treating a high-hp front-engined RWD car with respect too. In any case, skidding into turns is something that should probably be left to the track (where "90 percent of us" don't even drive), unless you have the experience of a seasoned journalist, racing driver, or vehicle engineer (which I'm guessing 99% of us do not).
The guy bought the 996TT so it seems the price was worth it to him, and that sort of defies his logic that Porsches are way overpriced. Seems to me that if you honestly think something is not priced right, you would then be behaving in a totally inconsistent manner to actually pay into the very system that inflates its price, and thus justify its price with your voting dollars.
For the way 90 percent of buyers (probably more) who use these cars primarily for the street, the engine trying to pass the front will likely never even be an issue.
Here's a recommendation: When driving a rear-engined car, don't forget and lift when starting to skid in a turn. I'm sure there are some common-sense warnings about treating a high-hp front-engined RWD car with respect too. In any case, skidding into turns is something that should probably be left to the track (where "90 percent of us" don't even drive), unless you have the experience of a seasoned journalist, racing driver, or vehicle engineer (which I'm guessing 99% of us do not).
The guy bought the 996TT so it seems the price was worth it to him, and that sort of defies his logic that Porsches are way overpriced. Seems to me that if you honestly think something is not priced right, you would then be behaving in a totally inconsistent manner to actually pay into the very system that inflates its price, and thus justify its price with your voting dollars.
Last edited by musclecar6; 10-01-2013 at 11:34 AM.
10-01-2013, 02:45 PM
#9
When I bought the 996TT, I thought about just buying a normally aspirated 911, but figured that was a foolish move, cause if I became enamored with Porsche's, I would eventually move up to a twin turbo, so why not go all the way to begin with, rather than stair step my way there. I also moved out of my E39 M5 to an 06 C6/A6/F55 coupe that I sent to LPE for their maggie supercharger package that I had at the same time I had the 2003 996TT. Bottom line is, if you like Porsche's and they ring your bell, good for you. As i've said before, to me they are a waay waay overpriced ride for what you get, and except for the PDK, they have nothing on a vette, especially the new C7.
"Have nothing on a Vette, especially the new C7"..
Nothing except precision feel, better fit & finish, better customization, more safety and convenience equipment, a more rigid structure, more refinement, better seats, better performance in inclement conditions, rear seats for kids, etc. The C7 addresses a lot of this, but according to those who have no vested interest in winning CF debates, as well as independent journalists, it doesn't match the Porsche in all of these things.
10-01-2013, 03:18 PM
#10
Race Director
About the 2014 Corvette's interior (Car & Driver):
...and performance:
I think this says volumes about how the C7 has equaled and more importantly, exceeded Porsche in at least some (important) performance attributes.
And finally, to sum up the C7, C&D states:
Inside, the cockpit is comprehensively upgraded, and the sorry C6 buckets have been replaced with world-class, eight-way-adjustable driver and passenger thrones.
Modeled after Porsche 911 buckets, these seats don’t hinder your slide into a cockpit that’s aggressively driver oriented. An instrument cluster to make Nintendo jealous, an eight-inch central touch screen, and a sensible mix of control ***** and buttons reside on the action side of a vertical partition. The passenger gets a comfy place to sit, a couple of grab handles, and temperature-control buttons by the right-side vent. While you can splurge for an $8005 full-leather interior package, the $51,995 base Stingray’s dashtop is wrapped with a stitched and grained “protein” vinyl (a blend of vinyl and silk) good enough to fool a cowhide inspector. Real carbon-fiber accents and a stitched-suede dash-wrap are available options, each of which adds $995 to the sticker. The center half of the instrument cluster is a reconfig*urable screen offering a choice of three tach motifs, navigation pointers, g reports, and other essential information. Even the cheapest surface material inside, a sort of powder-coat black paint, feels upscale.
Modeled after Porsche 911 buckets, these seats don’t hinder your slide into a cockpit that’s aggressively driver oriented. An instrument cluster to make Nintendo jealous, an eight-inch central touch screen, and a sensible mix of control ***** and buttons reside on the action side of a vertical partition. The passenger gets a comfy place to sit, a couple of grab handles, and temperature-control buttons by the right-side vent. While you can splurge for an $8005 full-leather interior package, the $51,995 base Stingray’s dashtop is wrapped with a stitched and grained “protein” vinyl (a blend of vinyl and silk) good enough to fool a cowhide inspector. Real carbon-fiber accents and a stitched-suede dash-wrap are available options, each of which adds $995 to the sticker. The center half of the instrument cluster is a reconfig*urable screen offering a choice of three tach motifs, navigation pointers, g reports, and other essential information. Even the cheapest surface material inside, a sort of powder-coat black paint, feels upscale.
...and performance:
Thanks to the move to Michelin Pilot Super Sport radials, the Stingray is world-class in terms of braking and cornering. Stopping from 70 mph in 146 feet without fade matches the Grand Sport as well as recent Cayman and 911 performances. Brembo calipers and grooved rotors provide decisive bite, linear response, and easy modulation. But where the Stingray really excels is in cornering tests. Posting a 1.08-g score on GM’s black-lake circle puts the C7 in league with the Z06 and ZR1 on track tires and well beyond the reach of the current Porsche crowd.
And finally, to sum up the C7, C&D states:
Considering the performance strides, the splendid interior, the Stingray’s screaming value, and its fun-to-drive vibe, here’s our Corvette report card: A+ for effort, straight As for execution.
10-01-2013, 05:17 PM
#11
"Now get inside the 911. Touch it. Operate its controls. Drive it down the street and notice what you don't hear. Talk to your passenger. Listen to him. Do the same in the 'Vette. Appreciate the 911 with both your senses and your heart. Measure the difference not in numbers but in nuance.
The Daily Grind
Chevy moved mountains in improving the Corvette's interior, but there's still a vast gap between these cars in quality. Everything you touch in the 911 is laser-micrometer precise and right-now responsive. The differences matter. In the 911 you move and it moves with you. In the Stingray you punch the touchscreen twice and wait. And on a hot day, the 911 smells like leather. The Corvette smells like chemicals.
If the 911 utterly dominates the Corvette anywhere, it's here, in the ever-important words between the numbers."
--edmunds
"Interior quality received a major upgrade, with nicer materials and attractive stitching (à la Impala), but it’s still not up to competing models."
--http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/09/2014-chevrolet-corvette-stingray-c7-first-drive-review/index.htm
"Being slower but feeling better is the automotive equivalent of 'having a great personality.' Those who live on emotion alone will love the Cayman. But even those folks must resolve the right- and left-brain conflict when it comes to the bottom line. It's a problem that's easily assuaged with the knowledge that the Porsche is the better-built car.
Though 'attention to detail' is an overused expression, it's appropriate in this comparison where the differences can be can be seen, felt and even smelled. Everything about the Cayman's interior exudes a custom-tailored fitment*. The wheel, pedals and gearshift feel as if they were molded just for you, blurring the line where the driver ends and the car begins. Buttons have a positive click and all controls are intuitively placed. Open the door and you're instantly intoxicated by the smell of luxuriant leather.
The C7 is undoubtedly the best Corvette built to date, but it's still unmistakably an off-the-rack Corvette. You don't get the feeling that it becomes part of you; rather, it's a powerful machine that (most of the time) reacts to your commands. ***** and buttons in the 'Vette are wobbly compared to the Porsche and the cabin seems to be more flash than substance. Crack open the door and you're hit with a wall of off-gassing adhesives and chemicals.
[The Cayman's] higher build standard yields a sophistication the Stingray can't match."
--edmunds, C7 vs Cayman S
"The paddle shifters are made of plastic, a poor choice on GM’s part, though they’re hardly the most offensive bit of the Stingray’s interior. It may finally boast a steering wheel that’s not shared with other products in the Chevy lineup, but that doesn’t change the fact that the column stalks and mirror controls have been rummaged from the parts bin.
Are they bad? No, but that doesn’t change the fact that they shouldn’t be there.
Lower trim models do betray their pricepoint and the stitched leather on the dash could be confused for stitched plastic.
To meet the needs of those looking for a more premium cabin, Chevy now offers a pricey $8,000 upgrade package with a full leather interior and upgraded Nappa leather seats. The seats even feature a three-stage heating and cooling system – a first for the Corvette. It’s certainly impressive but leaves us thinking perhaps it should just be standard and the Corvette should just start at $60,000."
--http://www.autoguide.com/manufacturer/chevrolet/2014-chevrolet-corvette-stingray-review-2767.html
*The C7's seats are greatly improved for support, but they don't have the adjustability of the Porsche's seats (which, for example, is available with extendible bottom cushion to fit a wider array of thigh lengths).
Most of what we've been addressing so far is the tactile quality. Aesthetically, the Porsche's interior appears crisper, more modern IMO.
As for objective performance, here's how they perform at the same location (not GM's testing grounds), C7 vs 911S:
Edmunds skidpad: 1.05g vs 1.04g
Motor Trend figure-8: 23.9s @ 0.82g vs 23.9s @ 0.88g
C&D's tire test, using a control vehicle.
Lateral acceleration, MPSS vs PZero: 0.90g vs 0.87g
The C6 GS also posted higher lateral g's than the Porsche in the dry, so that's not exactly new. (Nor is the miniscule difference really important to the way 99% of these cars are used 99% of the time.) How they performed in cold or damp conditions was another matter entirely.
In any case, musclecar6's comments were not confined only to the C7, which I agree is closing gaps (sometimes literally) to the Porsche.
10-01-2013, 06:45 PM
#12
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '12
Are Porsche owners this obsessed with Corvettes? All I hear Corvette owners say is Porsche this and Porsche owners that. I mean it really matters when you are driving under the speed limit going to the next corvette club meeting....
So sit here and argue stats, very very few Corvette owners ever get 50 percent of what a Corvette is able to do outside of going fast in a straight line.
So sit here and argue stats, very very few Corvette owners ever get 50 percent of what a Corvette is able to do outside of going fast in a straight line.
10-01-2013, 10:55 PM
#13
Race Director
Are Porsche owners this obsessed with Corvettes? All I hear Corvette owners say is Porsche this and Porsche owners that. I mean it really matters when you are driving under the speed limit going to the next corvette club meeting....
So sit here and argue stats, very very few Corvette owners ever get 50 percent of what a Corvette is able to do outside of going fast in a straight line.
So sit here and argue stats, very very few Corvette owners ever get 50 percent of what a Corvette is able to do outside of going fast in a straight line.
10-02-2013, 06:20 AM
#14
10-02-2013, 07:22 AM
#15
10-02-2013, 07:29 AM
#16
I can understand your reason for choosing the 996TT over a normally aspirated 911. I get that. However, that doesn't address the question of why you would willingly pay into a system that inflates the price of something that you claim is not worth the price, thus perpetuating the higher price of that item. Whether its a TT or not, that doesn't really matter.
"Have nothing on a Vette, especially the new C7"..
Nothing except precision feel, better fit & finish, better customization, more safety and convenience equipment, a more rigid structure, more refinement, better seats, better performance in inclement conditions, rear seats for kids, etc. The C7 addresses a lot of this, but according to those who have no vested interest in winning CF debates, as well as independent journalists, it doesn't match the Porsche in all of these things.
"Have nothing on a Vette, especially the new C7"..
Nothing except precision feel, better fit & finish, better customization, more safety and convenience equipment, a more rigid structure, more refinement, better seats, better performance in inclement conditions, rear seats for kids, etc. The C7 addresses a lot of this, but according to those who have no vested interest in winning CF debates, as well as independent journalists, it doesn't match the Porsche in all of these things.
10-02-2013, 09:48 AM
#18
Race Director
Guibo,
I liken buying a Porsche to buying a Rolex watch. The watch isn't more accurate than many others costing far less, but the satisfaction of telling people you have a Rolex must far outweigh its lack of superior functionality.
I liken buying a Porsche to buying a Rolex watch. The watch isn't more accurate than many others costing far less, but the satisfaction of telling people you have a Rolex must far outweigh its lack of superior functionality.
10-02-2013, 11:25 AM
#20
Safety Car
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