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I think it's an ingenious plan on Chrysler's part. In this way, they keep the current owners in the fold. It would be too difficult to walk away from a deal like that in order to buy a Z06. Very smart!
Until they try to trade their 140K Viper and get offered 75K for it.......
This sucks if you purchased one at that crazy previous MSRP.
.....A 15K coupon for a new one just wouldn't cut it for me either....put 15K in my F'in hand........
Maybe I can get a 2014 TA for 60K...........hmmmmmmmm
I talked to my old Viper dealer today and though I might be able to get him a few shekels lower, the party line is list price on a T/A around $120k less $15k price reduction less approx. $8k dealer margin for a bottom line of around $97k and that is for a cloth seat interior car with not much on it so it's still a lot higher than an equivalent Z06, and no removable roof, and I can't see many stoplights out of one without bending over and peering under the roofline. One dealer I know well and trust totally does have a new 2013 GTS at a huge discount and that one is all tarted up for $89k so if you are one of those who hates the removable roof and was going to load up a non Z07 version, that car would be worth considering.
I drove one of the new generation Vipers at an event here in Phoenix last year and it is a fun car with a ton of power.
Last edited by SRTRick; 09-08-2014 at 08:52 PM.
Reason: clarification
I don't remember where I read it (it was in this very section of the forum) that one of the chief engineers said the new Z was NOT a good daily driver. Also, how do you know the new Gen V Viper isn't as good of a DD? Older Vipers I would agree with you, but the Gen V is a very nice place to be. You keep talking in facts like there is no room for preferences and interpretation. What you consider bad for DD some may not.
I had the opportunity to drive one of the new Vipers with the track package for about 40 minutes on a variety of roads from surface streets to freeways, and it could be a daily driver if you were really intent on doing that, but there are things that make it less so than the C7. The Viper's roofline is such that for me anyway, if I am first at a stoplight I have to lean way forward to see the light change because it is hidden by the roof. Add to that the flamboyant looks of the car that keep traffic staring and jockeying around you, and the terror of parking it in a public lot and you have a car that would not be the first choice for a daily driver for most people. I did have two Vipers myself, and while I did drive them to work a few times just for fun, I would not have wanted to do it on a daily basis, and it wasn't the earlier simple interior that would have been the issue. ( I wouldn't have ever done it at all if I had to park in a public lot, but I had assigned underground parking at work.)
I am going to disagree with the general consensus that lowering prices for the Viper is a good move for the company. What they ought to be focusing on is building a car that is really $30 thousand or so dollars better than a Z06.
When the Viper was running as far ahead on pricing as it was you could basically frame the whole thing for potential buyers as you are buying a more rare and expensive car than what Corvette was putting out there. When the price is similar and the results show you getting your teeth kicked in on sales (which I think they will) then you are just selling a product that fewer people desire.
The Viper is great but I honestly think there has not been much of a balance between business case for it all and what the guys who run the program want to build. Really if you just listen to the guy in charge when he talks about something as basic as possibly putting an automatic transmission in the thing. I mean I get it. Car guy's don't like it, at least some of them. But sales figures speak for themselves. I don't think anyone would be stunned, presuming they stick to the plan to not do a ZR1 in the C7 generation, if Corvette sells more Z06 models than Dodge has sold Viper's ever. The delta in sales between the two brands is not unimportant. It is a problem when the Viper is more expensive by a good margin. It will be a disaster if it continues even with reduced pricing.
That is why the pricing move confuses me. The Viper can be what it has been for a while and be a high priced, niche product that does its own thing. But if you want to come down to a bit more of a mass market price then don't you need to offer more of a mass market product? Convertibles, automatics, better gas mileage?
A 15% price reduction does not scream "smart business plan". It screams panic in any industry, particularly on a model that in 2012 was being promoted as finally being profitable. Production stops followed by big price cuts tells me this is what they have to do to keep the line afloat until they can try to revamp the product. And I think its increasingly important that such programs at least be break even if not profitable.
I mean what dictates how much management is going to put into the next car? Even if they are willing to do it at somewhat of a loss it is really driven by how much of their R&D they can expect to get back selling the car (both in sales and in positive traction for the brand). They had better hope the thing gets traction but I don't see the price change as a positive for the brand or the company. It likely means they are selling it at a loss (there was press about how they would finally sell 2012 models and make a profit) and it means they are trying drastic changes in business models to keep the brand afloat. It does not sound to me like a situation where you will get management to say "here, have a few billion to build another one". Particularly so long as the guy in charge of that division is basically giving flat no answers to things that might broaden the car's appeal.
Good news for customers in the short term. Bad news for the brand long term.
I am going to disagree with the general consensus that lowering prices for the Viper is a good move for the company. What they ought to be focusing on is building a car that is really $30 thousand or so dollars better than a Z06.
When the Viper was running as far ahead on pricing as it was you could basically frame the whole thing for potential buyers as you are buying a more rare and expensive car than what Corvette was putting out there. When the price is similar and the results show you getting your teeth kicked in on sales (which I think they will) then you are just selling a product that fewer people desire.
The Viper is great but I honestly think there has not been much of a balance between business case for it all and what the guys who run the program want to build. Really if you just listen to the guy in charge when he talks about something as basic as possibly putting an automatic transmission in the thing. I mean I get it. Car guy's don't like it, at least some of them. But sales figures speak for themselves. I don't think anyone would be stunned, presuming they stick to the plan to not do a ZR1 in the C7 generation, if Corvette sells more Z06 models than Dodge has sold Viper's ever. The delta in sales between the two brands is not unimportant. It is a problem when the Viper is more expensive by a good margin. It will be a disaster if it continues even with reduced pricing.
That is why the pricing move confuses me. The Viper can be what it has been for a while and be a high priced, niche product that does its own thing. But if you want to come down to a bit more of a mass market price then don't you need to offer more of a mass market product? Convertibles, automatics, better gas mileage?
A 15% price reduction does not scream "smart business plan". It screams panic in any industry, particularly on a model that in 2012 was being promoted as finally being profitable. Production stops followed by big price cuts tells me this is what they have to do to keep the line afloat until they can try to revamp the product. And I think its increasingly important that such programs at least be break even if not profitable.
I mean what dictates how much management is going to put into the next car? Even if they are willing to do it at somewhat of a loss it is really driven by how much of their R&D they can expect to get back selling the car (both in sales and in positive traction for the brand). They had better hope the thing gets traction but I don't see the price change as a positive for the brand or the company. It likely means they are selling it at a loss (there was press about how they would finally sell 2012 models and make a profit) and it means they are trying drastic changes in business models to keep the brand afloat. It does not sound to me like a situation where you will get management to say "here, have a few billion to build another one". Particularly so long as the guy in charge of that division is basically giving flat no answers to things that might broaden the car's appeal.
Good news for customers in the short term. Bad news for the brand long term.
I had a long talk with a Midwestern volume Viper dealer today, someone who has been very active with the Viper brand and the Chicago region of the VCA and is very familiar with the executives at Chrysler and basically he said that the Viper is now back to being a halo car that doesn't have to make a profit. Chrysler feels that having the car out there is important advertising and they feel that spending money on the car is equivalent to spending advertising dollars. I personally don't feel that the car should have been priced where it is anyway, and some of the things they spent a lot of money on like going back to the clamshell hood, while desirable, isn't something that really pays a performance dividend and visually isn't something that is obvious to a casual bystander. They are really banking on the add on supercharger to make a big impression on people as well, as they are evidently expecting very big horsepower out of it. With the car being back to nonprofit status a convertible wouldn't be out of the question unless they are going ahead with the next generation fairly soon, which he did not indicate to me.
As far as being priced equivalently to the Z06, the car is definitely not there as a basically equipped TA is priced like a loaded up Z07 Z06 at approximately $105,000. with the cloth interior, while a loaded up top of the line car is still going to be around $130,000. Then you can probably tack on another 10K if you want the supercharger.
The Gen V Viper is an amazing car. I love how people argue such pedantic ******** like 1/2 second lap time differences to decide which car is better.
If Chevy were smart, they'd offer up to match the $15k certificate for any Viper owner holding one against a Z06. I know I'd be quite tempted to go that route if that were the case...
If Chevy were smart, they'd offer up to match the $15k certificate for any Viper owner holding one against a Z06. I know I'd be quite tempted to go that route if that were the case...
You can't be serious. Chevy will need no help selling the Z06. They're selling more C7's in a month than the Viper has sold during the whole gen V duration. I'm willing to guarantee the Viper will be no match for the Z06 on track or street. And we already know which wins the bang for buck comparison. Dodge gets chance after chance to handle this car properly, and continually misses the mark imo.
You can't be serious. Chevy will need no help selling the Z06. They're selling more C7's in a month than the Viper has sold during the whole gen V duration. I'm willing to guarantee the Viper will be no match for the Z06 on track or street. And we already know which wins the bang for buck comparison. Dodge gets chance after chance to handle this car properly, and continually misses the mark imo.
How many regular C7's Chevy sells is irrelevant. No one that is shopping for a Viper is going to cross-shop a non-Z06 C7.
As for the Viper being "no match" for the Z06, that's just silly. What exactly makes another car "no match", that it goes around VIR half a second faster?
People are seriously over-hyping the Z06. It's basically a slightly more powerful, slightly heaver ZR1.
People are going to be surprised how clunky that Z06 auto is when they try to paddle shift and wish they went regular manual. Otherwise leave it in auto mode and let the trans and suspension electronics do everything for you.
You can't be serious. Chevy will need no help selling the Z06. They're selling more C7's in a month than the Viper has sold during the whole gen V duration. I'm willing to guarantee the Viper will be no match for the Z06 on track or street. And we already know which wins the bang for buck comparison. Dodge gets chance after chance to handle this car properly, and continually misses the mark imo.
Do you guys really believe the things you write?
The Z06 and Viper are head to head rivals. To think their performance isn't on par with one another is just stupid.
The Gen V is great and I'll either buy another or a Z06. The childish "omg it sucks!" is just ignorant.
If Chevy matched the $15k cert for the Z06 from Dodge, I wouldn't think twice about ordering a Z06 today (Well come spring because thats when I am ordering!).
I'm a Corvette guy through and through.... I've raced one for years, but the Viper is the cooler/sexier/rarer car. If I could fit in a Viper (I'm 6'4") I'd buy one over the Z06.
The Z06 is amazing, but I guess I prefer the curves of the Viper over the angular lines of the Chevy.
Best would be to be rich enough to have a C7Z vert with the 8-speed and one of those Stryker Green Vipers
Wow, this makes a Z06 purchase for me very hard. New Viper for 85k? These cars will see a huge spike in sales. I like the Z06, and it may be a hair faster than the Viper, but IMO the Viper is by far the better looking and more "special" car. The only time my Vette felt special was in Europe where there aren't that many.
The Gen V Viper is an amazing car. I love how people argue such pedantic ******** like 1/2 second lap time differences to decide which car is better.
If Chevy were smart, they'd offer up to match the $15k certificate for any Viper owner holding one against a Z06. I know I'd be quite tempted to go that route if that were the case...
Agreed. Let me preface this by saying that I think new Corvette (and pending Z06) are spectacular. But...they are just more Corvettes in a sea of Corvettes. In addition to that, the Z06 cachet is being diluted by being available in coupe, convertible, manual and auto. Yes, I know exactly why GM is doing it...but the exclusivity of a new Viper alone makes me want it.
Performance wise, it holds the production car lap record at Laguna Seca, beating the ZR1. Will the C7 Z06 set a new record? Possibly, but it will have outgun the new Viper TA, which I don't think it will be able to do carrying all that extra weight: http://www.torquenews.com/106/2015-d...r-acr-features
Regardless, since I don't track my cars, I really don't care. We are talking minutia differences in performance between the cars, which make the decision more based on price and appeal than anything else.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; 09-09-2014 at 09:22 PM.
Sure thing there. Don't hate on the Viper because it's a better looking car than the Vette.
Originally Posted by Divexxtreme
Agreed. Let me preface this by saying that I think new Corvette (and pending Z06) are spectacular. But...they are just more Corvettes in a sea of Corvettes. In addition to that, the Z06 cachet is being diluted by being available in coupe, convertible, manual and auto. Yes, I know exactly why GM is doing it...but the exclusivity of a new Viper alone makes me want it.
Performance wise, it holds the production car lap record at Laguna Seca, beating the ZR1. Will the C7 Z06 set a new record? Possibly, but it will have outgun the new Viper TA, which I don't think it will be able to do carrying all that extra weight: http://www.torquenews.com/106/2015-d...r-acr-features
Regardless, since I don't track my cars, I really don't care. We are talking minutia differences in performance between the cars, which make the decision more based on price and appeal than anything else.
Oh nice news about the Time Attack 2.0. I think the new Z06 just had its work cut out for it..
Agreed. Let me preface this by saying that I think new Corvette (and pending Z06) are spectacular. But...they are just more Corvettes in a sea of Corvettes. In addition to that, the Z06 cachet is being diluted by being available in coupe, convertible, manual and auto. Yes, I know exactly why GM is doing it...but the exclusivity of a new Viper alone makes me want it.
Performance wise, it holds the production car lap record at Laguna Seca, beating the ZR1. Will the C7 Z06 set a new record? Possibly, but it will have outgun the new Viper TA, which I don't think it will be able to do carrying all that extra weight: http://www.torquenews.com/106/2015-d...r-acr-features
Regardless, since I don't track my cars, I really don't care. We are talking minutia differences in performance between the cars, which make the decision more based on price and appeal than anything else.
But what can you expect on a Corvette forum. Everyone is going to get all huffy and sh*t on anything that isn't a Corvette
Agreed. Let me preface this by saying that I think new Corvette (and pending Z06) are spectacular. But...they are just more Corvettes in a sea of Corvettes. In addition to that, the Z06 cachet is being diluted by being available in coupe, convertible, manual and auto. Yes, I know exactly why GM is doing it...but the exclusivity of a new Viper alone makes me want it.
Performance wise, it holds the production car lap record at Laguna Seca, beating the ZR1. Will the C7 Z06 set a new record? Possibly, but it will have outgun the new Viper TA, which I don't think it will be able to do carrying all that extra weight: http://www.torquenews.com/106/2015-d...r-acr-features
Regardless, since I don't track my cars, I really don't care. We are talking minutia differences in performance between the cars, which make the decision more based on price and appeal than anything else.
"Just another corvette in a sea of corvettes" only really matters if you care to be seen in an exclusive car.
zo6 cachet being diluted is a positive thing for many people. Why not have a convertible, a removable roof, and an auto for those who want them? It doesn't make the car less impressive. It simply just satisfies a larger audience.
I think it is important to note that the TA beat the outgoing ZR1 (a 5 year old platform) by an insignificant hair. We are talking minuscule differences here as well. Additionally, I am pretty confident that the ZO7 will "beat" the TA due to its better aero and what I expect to be better traction/better overall handling. Just a suspicion.
I agree with your last statement. These cars basically cancel themselves out performance wise and it is silly to choose one over the other because of any perceived performance delta of one over the other.
Having said all this...and keep in mind that I am a corvette man first...I believe that the viper is a better looking car overall. I have not seen a ZO6 in person, but I did see the C7 and the gen V viper side by side at an auto show last year and, in my opinion, from a looks perspective, the C7 could not hold a candle to the viper. I remember thinking that the ZO6 would have to a huge leap forward in design to compete with the viper from a looks perspective.
As much as it pains me to say...I think the viper is a better looking car with a much better build quality. I too am now out of the ZO6 market in favor of the viper. I still believe the corvette is a better overall engineering package. However, not enough of a difference for me overlook the visual appeal of the viper.
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"Just another corvette in a sea of corvettes" only really matters if you care to be seen in an exclusive car.
You are 100% correct. And I have no problem admitting that some level of exclusivity is important to me. Absolutely.
zo6 cachet being diluted is a positive thing for many people. Why not have a convertible, a removable roof, and an auto for those who want them? It doesn't make the car less impressive. It simply just satisfies a larger audience.
I know. I mentioned in my earlier post that I understand the reasoning for it. It also helps sales, which benefits Corvette longevity on the whole. But I also believe it will negatively impact Z06 resale, due to the large numbers of cars that will end up flooding the market. I've already lost so much damn money on my Stingray due to market-flooding that I don't want to deal with it again.
I think it is important to note that the TA beat the outgoing ZR1 (a 5 year old platform) by an insignificant hair. We are talking minuscule differences here as well. Additionally, I am pretty confident that the ZO7 will "beat" the TA due to its better aero and what I expect to be better traction/better overall handling. Just a suspicion.
Correct. The Viper (on real street tires) beat the ZR1 (on R-compounds - PS Cup ZPs) by a hair. A few minutes after that run......when they put R-compounds on the Viper, it ended up running 2.7 seconds faster than it did on street tires. To me, those results clearly show which car is the faster track car.
I agree with your last statement. These cars basically cancel themselves out performance wise and it is silly to choose one over the other because of any perceived performance delta of one over the other.
Concur.
Having said all this...and keep in mind that I am a corvette man first...I believe that the viper is a better looking car overall. I have not seen a ZO6 in person, but I did see the C7 and the gen V viper side by side at an auto show last year and, in my opinion, from a looks perspective, the C7 could not hold a candle to the viper. I remember thinking that the ZO6 would have to a huge leap forward in design to compete with the viper from a looks perspective.
As much as it pains me to say...I think the viper is a better looking car with a much better build quality. I too am now out of the ZO6 market in favor of the viper. I still believe the corvette is a better overall engineering package. However, not enough of a difference for me overlook the visual appeal of the viper.
Concur. Very fair assessment, Paul. I'm actually working on a deal for a Viper TA right now. Good luck!
Correct. The Viper (on real street tires) beat the ZR1 (on R-compounds - PS Cup ZPs) by a hair. A few minutes after that run......when they put R-compounds on the Viper, it ended up running 2.7 seconds faster than it did on street tires. To me, those results clearly show which car is the faster track car.
This. I don't think I've ever seen a Vette test that didn't have Cup tires on it. That's a quite large advantage over cars with regular street tires. Yes I am aware that it's a "factory" option, whether that is a smart move by Chevy or a stupid move by competing car companies is up for debate. It's like every sports car manufacturer has to offer R-Comp tires from the factory to level the playing field. I have R-Comps on my Lotus Exige and it makes a HUGE difference.
Like the Z28 vs GTR test, the Z28 wouldn't have come close to winning if it didn't have those special R-Comp tires on it.
By the way, there is a T/A 2.0 edition on it's way for the Viper. It will be more akin to the old ACR with better down-force. Not sure if the Z06 is gonna be able to keep up with that car.
But I also believe it will negatively impact Z06 resale, due to the large numbers of cars that will end up flooding the market. I've already lost so much damn money on my Stingray due to market-flooding that I don't want to deal with it again.
Along similar lines...considering Chryslers solvency, I am not sure what kind of financial position they will be in as we move into the future. I get the impression that if another bailout is needed down the road (assuming fiat will eventually break ties) they may not get it. I just get the impression that, if not Chrysler as a whole, the viper especially may be "here today, gone tomorrow." As such, this bothers me a bit when considering the Viper. You should not be too confident with the vipers resale if this story plays out. I think it is a real possibility.
Then again, if you have the income to buy a car like this, future resale value should not be too much of a concern. Cars like these, in most cases, are never a good investment.
wasn't much impressed by the C7 looks wise, and the new Z06 to me is to close to the ZR1 and therefore not worth it…the new price on the viper made me go look and I really want one….wether or not I trade the ZR1 for one I have yet to decide, probably would need to as I have no more room in the garage. I'm highly considering the move in the next 12 months or so….or buy another 4 posts and stack 'em up
09-08-2014, 08:31 PM
