Is the Z/28 Camaro considered a failure?
12-16-2014, 01:49 AM
#41
Drifting
Well if they can get a pig camaro to do what the Z28 does on a road course, you would think you'd be a little interested in the same company doing that to a car weighing 600lbs less with better aero.
The big diff was that GM advertised the Z28 to do just what it does, no promise of great acceleration other than what is needed at a road course (which would have been icing to have thrown another 75hp on that LS7).
They somewhat advertised the Z06 to be all things to all people and so far it just ain't so.
Having said that, to me...NO I'd not pay $75K for the Z28. But I'd also not pay $100K for the super vette until the acceleration gets solved.
The big diff was that GM advertised the Z28 to do just what it does, no promise of great acceleration other than what is needed at a road course (which would have been icing to have thrown another 75hp on that LS7).
They somewhat advertised the Z06 to be all things to all people and so far it just ain't so.
Having said that, to me...NO I'd not pay $75K for the Z28. But I'd also not pay $100K for the super vette until the acceleration gets solved.
12-16-2014, 03:41 AM
#42
Melting Slicks
The C7 Z06 is hardly a failure. Best looking Vette ever, best interior on a Vette ever, best suspension on a Vette ever, as good of a braking system as any Vette ever, best tranny/diff combo of any Vette every, etc.
But it so far has not performed in acceleration tests like a 650/650 car was expected to perform. The Z28 in contrast exceeded road course expectations and accelerates in line with a 505/475 rating.
But it so far has not performed in acceleration tests like a 650/650 car was expected to perform. The Z28 in contrast exceeded road course expectations and accelerates in line with a 505/475 rating.
We need more level headed people like you Lawdogg on this subforum. In one camp, we have people who take offense to the smallest suggestion that the performance data and specs are not entirely concordant and the other camp wants to find something wrong in everything GM builds. Both are ridiculous IMHO.
I will admit to a small amount of disappointment with the straight line performance - the gap between the C6Z06 and C7Z06 is smaller than what the power:weight and early dyno data would suggest. Perhaps there is some truth to the suggestion something is amiss? We need more data... However, that does not mean the car is junk, far from it - just that it may need some tweaking to bring out it's full potential. As an interested potential buyer, if there is an issue, I want GM to identify it and fix it. I suspect every owner or prospective buyer would want this. I just wish we could have civil discourse on this topic without all of the childish behavior. The Troy Roberts era of CF had it's share of problems, but there was never this amount of overt hostility.
12-16-2014, 05:43 AM
#43
Race Director
I'm not talking sales. Lots of great cars dont sell well. I am talking critical success. Critics, reviewers, journalists and enthusiasts acknowledge the Z/28 as an incredible car.
I am wondering why the Z06 isn't afforded the same courtesy. I actually believe it makes the early posters deriding the car look foolish since we haven't seen if it can "beat" those cars it's losing to in the area it was supposedly focused on.
I am wondering why the Z06 isn't afforded the same courtesy. I actually believe it makes the early posters deriding the car look foolish since we haven't seen if it can "beat" those cars it's losing to in the area it was supposedly focused on.
People with no b@lls in person tend to shoot their mouths off here and on other forums to make up for the fact that in person they can't mange to unload their dissatisfaction in their own pitiful life..
Have a good laugh....everyone knows the latest z06 is bad @ss...
Is it perfect.? Hell no...will the car get trashed on this forum by trolls for as long as it's in production? Absolutely...
Doesn't even matter the brand of forum you go to....trolls do what they can....usually from their moms basement ...
None of us never quite see or hear these negative comments in person at cars and coffee or track events though....
Strange how that happens....isn't it.
Enjoy the Z
12-16-2014, 07:31 AM
#44
Because everybody wants the last generation Corvette that has a propensity to drop valves.
Of course, your logic doesn't apply to a 3883# GT-R, right?
A heavier car, on smaller tires, with less braking and a DCT tranny that is well known to overheat on-track mid-session with an intermediate/advanced level driver.
Note: you won't have to swap out the factory rotors on the Z28, nor will you have to change tires, go to a higher viscosity f/r diff fluid or do a tranny service when tranny fluid temps hit 260*.
S.
Of course, your logic doesn't apply to a 3883# GT-R, right?
A heavier car, on smaller tires, with less braking and a DCT tranny that is well known to overheat on-track mid-session with an intermediate/advanced level driver.
Note: you won't have to swap out the factory rotors on the Z28, nor will you have to change tires, go to a higher viscosity f/r diff fluid or do a tranny service when tranny fluid temps hit 260*.
S.
The Nissan only heats up when pushed hard and many people track them all day long with some pretty minor cooling upgrades.
Tires being equal and conditions being equal the Camaro isn't truly going to keep up with the GTR around a racetrack. Let's be serious here.
12-16-2014, 08:02 AM
#45
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I titled this as a question to make people think.
Why? Because according to several posters on here the Z06 is a failure because it's tune is allowing to be beaten IN A STRAIGHT line by some very serious competition.
However, I am curious how a car is a failure when we have seen no head to heads quantifying its most important performance metric against other cars. Handling and road course times. The Z/28, even at a stout 75k(for a Camaro) is praised far and wide among enthusiasts and the press as being one of the greats, yet in a straight line it's only so-so. Why is it that the Vette is getting skewered BEFORE we see if it can do what its mission in life is yet the Camaro hasn't been.
Just wondering.
PS: Chevrolet NEVER said this car was a drag strip king so although I wish it was beating the cars it's lost to in vids already, right outta the box bone stock, I will not fault GM since they never advertised it would. I am waiting for the track comparos to base any judgment since GM DID say THIS area is where it will rule. I am not gonna speculate on the pulled timing tune causing it to lose to xxx. I will let the emipirical rsults be my guide. If it goes head to head with a Viper, 911, GTR etc and smokes em' then mission accomplished GM in my book. They said it would and it did. If not, THEN I will have to call a spade a spade.
Why? Because according to several posters on here the Z06 is a failure because it's tune is allowing to be beaten IN A STRAIGHT line by some very serious competition.
However, I am curious how a car is a failure when we have seen no head to heads quantifying its most important performance metric against other cars. Handling and road course times. The Z/28, even at a stout 75k(for a Camaro) is praised far and wide among enthusiasts and the press as being one of the greats, yet in a straight line it's only so-so. Why is it that the Vette is getting skewered BEFORE we see if it can do what its mission in life is yet the Camaro hasn't been.
Just wondering.
PS: Chevrolet NEVER said this car was a drag strip king so although I wish it was beating the cars it's lost to in vids already, right outta the box bone stock, I will not fault GM since they never advertised it would. I am waiting for the track comparos to base any judgment since GM DID say THIS area is where it will rule. I am not gonna speculate on the pulled timing tune causing it to lose to xxx. I will let the emipirical rsults be my guide. If it goes head to head with a Viper, 911, GTR etc and smokes em' then mission accomplished GM in my book. They said it would and it did. If not, THEN I will have to call a spade a spade.
The z28 is a purely Track car from its birth. It is even empty inside for the weight reduction.
As for the Z, it was supposed to be an all-purpose, just like the rivals, but it's not.
BTW, U GUYS MAKE A BIG MISTAKE, if u think that the high speed factor does not play a big role on tracks. It depends on the race tracks. If its small then ok, but if the track is big with a lot of long straights(just like the nurb.) then its a big problem. Thats why they have not released the nurb. times))
Everything else -funny excuses... The Z is a very bounded car. A one-sided car that is good only for the short tracks
A huge s63 amg can outran this "sportscar" after the 120mph and u still say its not a failure?? lmfao.
Last edited by London13; 12-16-2014 at 08:14 AM.
12-16-2014, 08:28 AM
#46
Scraping the splitter.
Nissan did not have to put R Compound tires on the GTR to make it competitive.
The Nissan only heats up when pushed hard and many people track them all day long with some pretty minor cooling upgrades.
Tires being equal and conditions being equal the Camaro isn't truly going to keep up with the GTR around a racetrack. Let's be serious here.
The Nissan only heats up when pushed hard and many people track them all day long with some pretty minor cooling upgrades.
Tires being equal and conditions being equal the Camaro isn't truly going to keep up with the GTR around a racetrack. Let's be serious here.
lmao...at "only heats up when pushed hard" and then commenting about them needing "pretty minor cooling upgrades". Tell us all...what is a "pretty minor cooling upgrade" for a GT-R and what exactly does it cost?
S.
12-16-2014, 09:16 AM
#48
Le Mans Master
12-16-2014, 09:30 AM
#49
Instructor
Well if they can get a pig camaro to do what the Z28 does on a road course, you would think you'd be a little interested in the same company doing that to a car weighing 600lbs less with better aero.
The big diff was that GM advertised the Z28 to do just what it does, no promise of great acceleration other than what is needed at a road course (which would have been icing to have thrown another 75hp on that LS7).
They somewhat advertised the Z06 to be all things to all people and so far it just ain't so.
Having said that, to me...NO I'd not pay $75K for the Z28. But I'd also not pay $100K for the super vette until the acceleration gets solved.
The big diff was that GM advertised the Z28 to do just what it does, no promise of great acceleration other than what is needed at a road course (which would have been icing to have thrown another 75hp on that LS7).
They somewhat advertised the Z06 to be all things to all people and so far it just ain't so.
Having said that, to me...NO I'd not pay $75K for the Z28. But I'd also not pay $100K for the super vette until the acceleration gets solved.
They're both a little too heavy if you ask me. The Z28 does seem to do very well at the track considering its weight though. I'd have no worries about beating on it all day long since it has the tried and true LS7 in it. Will have to wait and see how the C7Z does once some experienced club racers get it out to the track next summer.
12-16-2014, 09:51 AM
#50
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This car can't sustain high levels of power over extended time. This would lead it to being a great cars and coffee cruiser....it has a supercharger, is decently fast (up to 120), has the nicest interior, comes in a vert, has targa option, nice interior, is really heavy for a vette, etc. The saving grace for track performance is primarily 2 things....the addition of aero and the MPSC2 tires on the Z07.
12-16-2014, 10:18 AM
#51
Team Owner
Actually, it's developed to be quite the opposite. It was advertised as such but isn't actually that. The C6Z was a track-oriented car...light, great power, no heatsoak issues, no extra weight over the front end.
This car can't sustain high levels of power over extended time. This would lead it to being a great cars and coffee cruiser....it has a supercharger, is decently fast (up to 120), has the nicest interior, comes in a vert, has targa option, nice interior, is really heavy for a vette, etc. The saving grace for track performance is primarily 2 things....the addition of aero and the MPSC2 tires on the Z07.
This car can't sustain high levels of power over extended time. This would lead it to being a great cars and coffee cruiser....it has a supercharger, is decently fast (up to 120), has the nicest interior, comes in a vert, has targa option, nice interior, is really heavy for a vette, etc. The saving grace for track performance is primarily 2 things....the addition of aero and the MPSC2 tires on the Z07.
12-16-2014, 10:47 AM
#52
Drifting
Urban Legends statement in regards to a fantastic track car is referring to the Z28, not the Z06.
As far as weight, I believe the Z28 weighs in the neighborhood of 3900lbs and I was thinking the Z06 was in the neighborhood of 3300lbs. After seeing recent posts where the Z06 is closer to 3500 I stand corrected. Yikes!
But seeing what they did with the Z28 being a hefty girl and rated at darn near 150 less hp, there should not be any reason the Z06 can't move itself around the track in an impressive fashion.
Just a little DISSAPOINTING they didn't get another 75hp in the camaro and ALL 650hp of the vette available ALL the time.
As far as weight, I believe the Z28 weighs in the neighborhood of 3900lbs and I was thinking the Z06 was in the neighborhood of 3300lbs. After seeing recent posts where the Z06 is closer to 3500 I stand corrected. Yikes!
But seeing what they did with the Z28 being a hefty girl and rated at darn near 150 less hp, there should not be any reason the Z06 can't move itself around the track in an impressive fashion.
Just a little DISSAPOINTING they didn't get another 75hp in the camaro and ALL 650hp of the vette available ALL the time.
12-16-2014, 11:39 AM
#53
Alcoholics Unanimous
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St. Jude Donor '15-'16
Different manufacturers have different philosophies to achieve track performance, the only thing that matters is lap times. In some tracks the Z/28 will be faster than the GT-R in others vice versa ... that's the very definition of two vehicles competing.
-------------------------------
More to the point ...
Some of you guys are really inconsistent ... you get all vexed if someone points out one superior variable/one trick pony vehicles like the Hellcat when they are compared to the Z06, and then turn around and hate the exact same way on the Z/28, be it on price and/or weight.
A performance vehicle's capability, especially a track focused one, is a combination of multiple factors all working together towards one end, lap times. The Z/28 isn't the best track car ever made, the new Z06, when GM shakes out the issues will likely beat it by a significant margin at the track, but it is an exceptional machine on its own right that's incredible fun to drive with on the road and on the track. I've had many 'sports' cars in my life and I assure you nothing felt like this vehicle right off the the factory floor ...
This thing has the most feedback of any vehicle I've ever driven, it roars at startup and doesn't stop trembling/loping until you shut it down. As opposed to the base C7 which feels like I'm going 25mph when I'm going 100, the Z28 feels like I'm speeding sitting in neutral. No soundproofing, barely anything between the engine, frame, road, and you, monster engine, stupid CC brakes and handling through the multimatic (What do Red Bull F1 cars, all 77 Aston Martin One-77s, the 2014 Camaro Z/28, and 20 of this year's 56 Le Mans entries have in common? They all use a relatively new damper design from a company called Multimatic.). It's really something special to experience. (and I personally also find it beautifully sinister) Point is, there's nothing like it out there. I never drove a C6 Z06, but I suspect it's a similar feeling, at least in regards to the engine feel.
Just as the GT-R was originally hailed for competing with other much more expensive vehicles when it was released, now the Z./28 competes with the GT-R for $30+K less. Looking at a Z/28 and saying 'it makes no sense to pay that much for a Camaro with less options' is a ridiculous statement and lacks complete understanding of what technology is involved in the vehicle and how it all works together to make a highly acclaimed very special machine.
The Z/28 isn't for everyone, that's why by the time they finish production, between the 14s and 15s they're only be a couple of thousand of them. If you want HIDs, infotainment system, and a butt massage it's certainly not for you. However off the dealer lot it's got the best ratio of pure performance to dollar available out there, and its price is completely commensurate, actually a bargain, given the technology and performance it comes with. You'd do yourself a favor to find a buddy who has one and try to convince him him/her to let you drive it ... price will be the last thing on your mind.
I also find it fascinating that many of those who knock the Z/28 are C6 Z06 fans and/or owners. These two vehicles are cousins, not just because they share the same engine but because they were built with the exact same purist philosophy in mind. It's as if they resent that GM dared drop an LS7 in a Camaro and somehow offended the C6 Z06 in the process. Taking personal offense at this, and flinging poop around, as opposed to embracing the two vehicles' common heritage is just small, petty, and smelly.
I'm not here to convince anyone to either buy one or even like it, nor am do I feel any need to defend my purchase. But I for one like precision, so when I see lazy minded arguments made against any vehicle I'll just state the facts and move along, whether I own that vehicle or not. I hang around this community to get all the info I can on the C7 Z06 and process that info holistically: the idea that the whole is more than merely the sum of its parts. So take a little bit of time to understand a vehicle before you evaluate it, and do reasoning a favor by looking at the whole thing rather than single variables ... that's what Hellcat owners do.
For my part I'm looking forward to purchasing my C7 Z07, but I know they are are completely different vehicles, so I'm adding it to the Z/28 and not trading one for the other ... I'm never letting go of this car if I can help it.
Last edited by soulsea; 12-16-2014 at 01:48 PM. Reason: catastrophic spelling
12-16-2014, 11:42 AM
#54
Burning Brakes
Actually, it's developed to be quite the opposite. It was advertised as such but isn't actually that. The C6Z was a track-oriented car...light, great power, no heatsoak issues, no extra weight over the front end.
This car can't sustain high levels of power over extended time. This would lead it to being a great cars and coffee cruiser....it has a supercharger, is decently fast (up to 120), has the nicest interior, comes in a vert, has targa option, nice interior, is really heavy for a vette, etc. The saving grace for track performance is primarily 2 things....the addition of aero and the MPSC2 tires on the Z07.
This car can't sustain high levels of power over extended time. This would lead it to being a great cars and coffee cruiser....it has a supercharger, is decently fast (up to 120), has the nicest interior, comes in a vert, has targa option, nice interior, is really heavy for a vette, etc. The saving grace for track performance is primarily 2 things....the addition of aero and the MPSC2 tires on the Z07.
I was talking about the Z/28 as dbs1vette stated.
12-16-2014, 11:43 AM
#55
Burning Brakes
12-16-2014, 11:53 AM
#56
Safety Car
Nissan did not have to put R Compound tires on the GTR to make it competitive.
The Nissan only heats up when pushed hard and many people track them all day long with some pretty minor cooling upgrades.
Tires being equal and conditions being equal the Camaro isn't truly going to keep up with the GTR around a racetrack. Let's be serious here.
The Nissan only heats up when pushed hard and many people track them all day long with some pretty minor cooling upgrades.
Tires being equal and conditions being equal the Camaro isn't truly going to keep up with the GTR around a racetrack. Let's be serious here.
yes they did, the Dunlops are as fast as R888's.
12-16-2014, 01:43 PM
#57
Drifting
Soulsea- Great points in all fronts. Do you run any longer tracks that have you wishing for more grunt from the LS7, or have you done any mods to pull some more power out of that beast?
I have to agree, it's the whole package. To get a car that weighs what it does, to have those track capabilities is simply amazing and it's not going to be cheap. The only thing lacking for a real track terror at any track IMHO would be another 100hp. But of course that's usually my fix for any car I've owned...minimum.
I have to agree, it's the whole package. To get a car that weighs what it does, to have those track capabilities is simply amazing and it's not going to be cheap. The only thing lacking for a real track terror at any track IMHO would be another 100hp. But of course that's usually my fix for any car I've owned...minimum.
12-16-2014, 01:55 PM
#58
I am stunned this kind of thing has gone on so long.
It all started with the completely B.S. and trolling Viper vs. Z06 video put together by a couple of Viper owners.
I understand WHY it was done, but I don't get how the thread has been allowed to continue.
12-16-2014, 02:09 PM
#60
Safety Car
How much of the Z28 performance can be attributed to the Trofeo's though. They are widely considered the fastest streetable R-comp out there. By a good margin.
I can't stand the boring tail lights on the Z/28, honestly, drives me nuts. Would much rather them have kept the quad light design.
You can buy a brand new 2015 Camaro for24k
Recaro Race Seats - 3k
LS7 Crate Motor- 8k
Coilovers - 4k
BBK - 3k
Wheels - 2k
Tires - 2k
Flowtie - LOL + Dremel
TR 6060 - 3500
Labor - 5k
Z/28 Aero 1500
32k + 24k = 56k
Not including selling your spanking new parts (engine/transmission/seats/brakes/shocks) which would further buy more weight reduction parts or bring the price down.
All in you could probably build that car (or a faster one) for 50k or less easily. I would honestly probably start with a 2013 for the better tail lights and get that for mid-high teens used.
I can't stand the boring tail lights on the Z/28, honestly, drives me nuts. Would much rather them have kept the quad light design.
You can buy a brand new 2015 Camaro for24k
Recaro Race Seats - 3k
LS7 Crate Motor- 8k
Coilovers - 4k
BBK - 3k
Wheels - 2k
Tires - 2k
Flowtie - LOL + Dremel
TR 6060 - 3500
Labor - 5k
Z/28 Aero 1500
32k + 24k = 56k
Not including selling your spanking new parts (engine/transmission/seats/brakes/shocks) which would further buy more weight reduction parts or bring the price down.
All in you could probably build that car (or a faster one) for 50k or less easily. I would honestly probably start with a 2013 for the better tail lights and get that for mid-high teens used.
Last edited by heavychevy; 12-16-2014 at 02:15 PM.