RC000E

As many may know, the CTS-V, since the earlier 2000's, has utilized the Z06/ZR1 platform, as it's basis. CTS-V has targeted the high end BMW performance line, so it's success requires improvement. We saw this, in the 2nd gen CTS-V, as it used the ZR1 platform as it's drivetrain basis.

When faced with building the C7, I think there became somewhat of a realization. With the ZR1 gone, the next gen CTS-V would be in limbo. Going from a supercharged Nurburgring killer, and the ZR1 not returning, what would it use to go to the next level.

I spent a few moments thinking about the 8spd/supercharged combination and thought...damn...what a fantastic drivetrain for the CTS-V. Paddle shift, huge torque for that heavier chassis, sure it may heatsoak but it's a Cadillac, not a Corvette.

I made it no secret I wanted to see the Z06 as an N/A platform, and I think many within GM did also...whether they would say it publicly or not. I came to determine that the Z06 HAD to go this route, to satisfy the CTS-V launch. They HAD to share drivetrain, and the CTS-V couldn't go from being supercharged last gen to being some rogue high dollar N/A 7.0 liter engine this gen. I mean...it could but...supercharging certainly suites that platform better and is likely better from a cost perspective than some titanium rod, high rev warrany claim.


I think in the end, we've seen a compromise here. I think the Z06 hit all its marks with aero and demeanor. I think it's a wicked machine, I truly do. I just think Z06 and supercharged was a conflict for me. I'd BUY this CTS-V...I honestly would. I think this drivetrain is PERFECT for that car. Personally though, I'm leaning toward a Z51 car, doing major body mods and modding the 6.2. The entry is fee is lower and it gives me the car I truly wanted, that GM for various reasons couldn't bring.

GM...you did great...and I know all cars are a series of compromises. I hope this car sells fantastically well, so that maybe we'll see some wicked monster ZR1 in the future. And yet again...PUT CONTROLS ON THE STEERING WHEEL. Start button, mode selection, etc!

jvp

This doesn't belong here, it belongs in the "Other Cars" section. And it'll get moved, count on it. That said...

I'm not sure why people don't believe the fricken CHIEF ENGINEER of the Corvette platform when he publicly states, numerous times, that a high output naturally-aspirated engine wouldn't pass emissions? Seriously. Why is that?

The supercharged mill in the C7 Z06 wasn't done to satisfy the CTS-V. It was done because they wanted to meet emissions using a 650(ish) HP engine. And they need to continue meeting emissions for their usual 100K warranty. That the engine is smooth and supercharged just benefits the V and helps spread out development costs even further. But to think that GM could have done an NA engine at the output the Z06 has now and be kept legal is folly.

Watch as more and more high performance cars from Europe appear with forced induction engines. Unfortunately, the day of the high output NA engines is over, unless someone can cook up some new trick with emissions.

Mdm23

Tadge has already publicly said that they intended for the Z06 to be a naturally aspirated big displacement engine. But they couldn't get the power they wanted and meet federal regulations at the same time that way. I don't think the CTS-V had anything to do with it.

RC000E

It's a discussion about the C7 Z06....wtf are you talking about...

RC000E

I understand that was a "statement" that was made, but that also can be a statement made to quell a bit of the people who have not received the idea of a supercharged Z06 as well. It's simple enough to publicize they were building something, as we have no real facts of that.


I guess the question to pose is, what WOULD the CTS-V utilized had the Z06 not been supercharged? In the end, the Z06 is an affordable platform because it spreads its cost across as much of the lineup GM has to offer as possible. This goes to the engine architecture, bolts, brackets, materials, transmissions, brakes, drivetrain...you name it. The C7 is affordable because it serves as a shared platform.

Let's get some depth of thought going here and a little less outlandish with the attitudes...lol.


Emissions is a challenge, certainly, but cars are meeting those standards. The end of an era is near, quite certainly, but at the same time we are seeing some vehicles meet these standards. As I said, cars are a series of compromises. I've spoken at length with many of the Corvette program engineers about the EPA regulation, various standards, etc. The fact is, the CTS-V DID need something under its hood. If you think its presence is a "non-issue" I think you've got some blinders.

Lastly JVP...I regularly attend the bashes and various Corvette events (NAIAS, Corvette World Tribute, races, etc) and both Tadge and Fehan have issued statements that turned out false, if you're listening. I enjoy the events, and I don't want to be the guy in the room that says "last year you said x and now we see that that was false" etc. I'm not trying to be Bill Oreilly with Tadge or Fehan, because I appreciate their commitment...but at the end of the day, we are the masses and they have a job to do and a car to sell. Let's get real here...just because Tadge says there was a motor that didn't meet targets, doesn't mean it was intended specifically for this car, or for right now. Tadge is a good "pc" kind of guy...he wouldn't have the job if he wasn't.

jvp

Feel free to list your qualifications out for us here so that we can see all of the automotive engineering work (power train, suspension, safety, et al) that you've done over the years. You're basically calling the chief engineer a liar, which is kind of a big deal. So let's see what you can bring to the table to back your statements up.

RC000E

You really want me to list my qualifications...lol...you're false assumption of what you think I lack will get you deeper, I assure you.

I'm not calling someone a liar, I'm calling them a representative of the brand. You don't run a company with total transparency, that's foolishness. Tadge is a damage control expert, as much as he is a chief engineer. The typical consumer doesn't have the perspective to understand the complications involved in seeing a car go from concept to federally legalized, dot compliant road car that meets the needs of the financial dept, the consumer market, the competition, etc.

You've probably rolled that set of dice on this forum many times, and it's worked but...not this time bud. There are certainly a myriad of keyboard engineers on here but...I'm not one of them. Your attitude upon entry to this discussion was volatile to begin with, and you do more disservice to the forum and the community than this simple discussion does. This is a forum...to discuss...to communicate...to co-educate...not to belittle and insult and tell me WHATS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. This is a proposed discussion to see what perspective the percentage of the informed may think...out of mere curiosity.

I have a great respect for Tadge, as well as his predecessors, all of which I know and have met personally, going back to Dave Mclellan...and I'm in my mid 30's so...

I'm not going to post my resume because that's ridiculous, but I'll give you a little insight, since you felt like being so cocky. I've held the title of "chief" in a small automotive company that produced cars that held some elements of federal compliance and were built from the ground up. I've coordinated marketing deals with major corporate partners and sponsors. I've exhibited/presented an example of a ground up build at a major autoshow, that also appeared on multiple tv networks. I've been in the driver seat, on a racetrack, in a pre-production mule by a major automaker, and it had a carbon monocoque, and this wasn't yesterday either. I've strained materials beyond their yield to test tensile strength, tempered, and blueprinted. I've designed in 3d utilizing design/engineering software packages. I've built engines that have produced over 5x their original output. And I've loved Corvettes since I was a child.

Am I Tadge...no I am not. It takes a lot more than knowledge to achieve Tadge's position...tenure, opportunity, experience, a little luck, etc. Could I BE a Tadge...certainly...given the right doorways of opportunity...I'm much younger than Tadge and have time to attain that. I don't position myself in the mainstream corporate world though...I like boutique brands that aren't handcuffed quite as much, so the position for me is quite unlikely. Do I far exceed your qualification though? I'll make an assumption as well...yes...yes I definitely do.

Now maybe you can try "nice" for a change.

jvp

You made a pretty weakly veiled attempt at calling the man out, so sure, whip 'em out.

And... you have the qualifications to put me in my place? I'd laugh, but you're not worth the effort to do so.

Really? Take it up with the Corvette Forum owners then and get my tech contributor title removed. See how that goes for ya. I'll sit here and wait, since I'm relaxing and taking time off of work.

It was more than "mere curiosity"; it has all the marks of what we like to call: a foregone conclusion. Keep swinging though, you'll get a hit eventually.

Keep ***uming and you'll end up right where you belong.

I don't do "nice". Bring a technically relevant conversation to the forum and I'll be happy to discuss it. But ignore what seasoned Corvette Forum contributors such as myself are telling you because you assume you know what you're talking about and: I won't be nice.

Have a day.

RC000E

Wow...laughable... Santa isn't gonna be visiting you this year.

You really "showed me"...with your forum title and all.


Anyone want to add something constructive to the conversation so we can move beyond this guy ^

Mods...if you've been drawn here by Mr. Tech Contributor, I hope the problem is obvious...

Bwright

OK, question. When you think of normally aspirated 650+ hp V8s how many of these are there currently on the market? Planned? Take your time. I'll wait.

When you think of 650+ hp cars period how many of them are normally aspirated (I'll give it to the V10 Viper even though it is a touch short, Ferrari F12 and the Lamborghini Aventador) and at what cost both base price and, separately, what are their attendant gas guzzler taxes? Also take a look, again, at their cylinder counts. See a potential natural advantage there?

I think when you look at that list you will see that forced induction of some sort is pretty much the only way left to generate big horsepower numbers while staying reasonably afoul of punitive gas guzzler taxes. No conspiracy as the evidence is pretty much everywhere. A few examples - Volkswagen's Golf R, basically the R32's replacement, switching from its previous V6 to a new turbo 4. BMW's M3 switching from its normally aspirated V8 to the new turbo 6. Volvo switching from its V8 and twin-turbo 6 to a new twincharger (turbo and supercharged) 4-cylinder. Etc.

Laws have changed substantially since that 2006 Z06 debuted. Fuel economy requirements literally doubled. As such, what worked then won't work now. Not even close. No more than a 2006 car could meet safety standards in a couple years when it will be 2016 and a decade old. Just won't. New side-impact laws etc.

Why do you think this article reports that Dodge is planning to supercharge the Viper to generate substantially more horsepower than the Hellcat: http://www.autoblog.com/2014/08/20/d...ercharged-v10/ ? Why not just go normally aspirated? Helpful hint, it's for probably the same reason that Ferrari has tipped its hand with the new California T and actually announced that effectively all their cars going forward will be turbocharged. There is just currently no choice now given the new rules.

See here again from Car and Driver which specifically mentions emissions as why it seems that Porsche will have to turbocharge all models of the 911 going forward: http://blog.caranddriver.com/porsche...pen-next-year/

Brave new world. Welcome.

Mdm23

Thank you. Some people just don't wanna accept the facts. Things have changed in the auto world. Whether it's for the good remains to be seen.

Callsign_Vega

The only reason the Z06 has a SC V8 and a torque converter auto is so they can put it in other cars such as the CTS-V.

Duntov7

and........HAPPY HOLIDAYS to ALL !!

LTC Z06

It's about emissions, period. If you want a certain level of HP now days you will need forced induction.

ThumperNC24

I honestly believe it had more to do with emissions / fuel economy than putting it in the CTS-V.

The LT1 isn't in the ATS-V even though it easily could have been.

NYC6

The enemies of modern, powerful N/A engines are the EPA and the gas guzzler tax.

JerriVette

Forced induction is a reality today...technology for forced induction along with emissions and fuel efficiency have made this a reality...

Ferrari moving to forced induction is the final blow to naturally aspirated engines...

Mclaren, and even Porsche will be moving to greater number of forced induction vehicles throughout their lineup...

Hell at the prices of cars today...not only should they have forced induction but they should blow me...(kidding of course )

The direct injection and other technology used to meet emissions and fuel economy make the jump to forced induction a mere formality.....the precision used in controlling combustion is such that forced induction makes sense as it adds value to the underlying costs of meeting government requirements....

Jmo

MRANT212

Back on topic here folks....they needed the Z06 engine in the the new CTS-V to kick the S#%T out of the high performance Euro trash out there!! Same reason why the ZR1 motor was in the prior generation. I have a 2012 V and love it....maybe a 2016 for me in the future?? Time will tell!

LSXhawk

I do I was wondering if the reason why ur hiding in florida is because all those performance parts that on ur c5 vette belong to the doctor u used to work for?