Porsche just released half of the C7Z06 hater crowds dream car...at 100k more msrp
03-26-2015, 01:06 PM
#61
Team Owner
Originally Posted by bubbaboy
I would never buy one, because I suck at the track
I would never buy one, because I suck at the track
03-26-2015, 06:09 PM
#62
Racer
Member Since: Nov 2008
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Porsche sold 10,442 Carreras in 2013. Yes the Vette sold more, but it's a 3.7:1 ratio, not 37:1.
But the original point was that a Porsche SHOULD outperform the Vette because it cost more. Which I agree, regardless of the reason why it costs more. Like wise, a Vette should outperform an FR-S because it cost more, regardless of the reason (R&D, units sold, unit profit, etc.).
Which is exactly why they have less money to recoup. You're making my point for me.
And what does Avatar have to do with anything I said?
And what does Avatar have to do with anything I said?
The Avatar stat simply puts things in perspective how little R&D went into the C7. It's an amazing performer given how little GM had to work with.
My point is this, let's look at your quote:
Simple example. Two cars cost $1,000,000 to develop. Company A sells 10 cars while company B sells 10,000. In order to break even, company A charges $100,000 per car and company B charges $100 per car. Chevy sells a lot of Corvettes (I believe the scientific term is "a metric butt ton") so they can charge less.
Someone then said it should, because it costs more.
Now you come back saying, well it should cost more because company A only decides to sell 10 cars...
See the circular argument? It seems like a no-win situation for car B.
If that's the rule, then perhaps car C should sell one unit at $1,000,000 (a la Veyron), and in your rule book that will always be the best choice.
03-26-2015, 06:30 PM
#63
No one has ever mistaken my Vettes for VW's. Can't say that about a Porch.
Last edited by bothred; 03-26-2015 at 06:34 PM.
03-26-2015, 07:33 PM
#65
Le Mans Master
I never disputed that, I said that's not the only reason - the other being Porsche also reels in more profit/unit than Chevy.
Porsche sold 10,442 Carreras in 2013. Yes the Vette sold more, but it's a 3.7:1 ratio, not 37:1.
But the original point was that a Porsche SHOULD outperform the Vette because it cost more. Which I agree, regardless of the reason why it costs more. Like wise, a Vette should outperform an FR-S because it cost more, regardless of the reason (R&D, units sold, unit profit, etc.).
Why do you assume I'm not trying to make a point for you? I'm not here to argue. So yes, I am agreeing with you the Vette cost a lot less to develop, and even supported that with a fact.
The Avatar stat simply puts things in perspective how little R&D went into the C7. It's an amazing performer given how little GM had to work with.
My point is this, let's look at your quote:
So basically, what happened is the $100,000 car A went on to beat the $100 car B in a comparison test.
Someone then said it should, because it costs more.
Now you come back saying, well it should cost more because company A only decides to sell 10 cars...
See the circular argument? It seems like a no-win situation for car B.
If that's the rule, then perhaps car C should sell one unit at $1,000,000 (a la Veyron), and in your rule book that will always be the best choice.
Porsche sold 10,442 Carreras in 2013. Yes the Vette sold more, but it's a 3.7:1 ratio, not 37:1.
But the original point was that a Porsche SHOULD outperform the Vette because it cost more. Which I agree, regardless of the reason why it costs more. Like wise, a Vette should outperform an FR-S because it cost more, regardless of the reason (R&D, units sold, unit profit, etc.).
Why do you assume I'm not trying to make a point for you? I'm not here to argue. So yes, I am agreeing with you the Vette cost a lot less to develop, and even supported that with a fact.
The Avatar stat simply puts things in perspective how little R&D went into the C7. It's an amazing performer given how little GM had to work with.
My point is this, let's look at your quote:
So basically, what happened is the $100,000 car A went on to beat the $100 car B in a comparison test.
Someone then said it should, because it costs more.
Now you come back saying, well it should cost more because company A only decides to sell 10 cars...
See the circular argument? It seems like a no-win situation for car B.
If that's the rule, then perhaps car C should sell one unit at $1,000,000 (a la Veyron), and in your rule book that will always be the best choice.
As far as performance goes, I would have to disagree that just because a car costs more, that doesn't mean it should perform better. The Z06 costs less than a lot of things that it performs quite a bit better than. Things like rarity, fit and finish, imports, etc play into it a lot. I would much rather have an Aston Martin V12 Vantage than a C7 Z06, but the Z06 would outperform the Aston all day.
So long story short, I think we're agreeing. Kinda.
03-26-2015, 08:06 PM
#66
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All Carreras =/= all C7s (IMO). The Carrera GT is a completely different car than a 911 Carrera. We can argue production all day, but we're both right. If you look at every Carrera, then the gap is smaller than if you only look at the 991s.
As far as performance goes, I would have to disagree that just because a car costs more, that doesn't mean it should perform better. The Z06 costs less than a lot of things that it performs quite a bit better than. Things like rarity, fit and finish, imports, etc play into it a lot. I would much rather have an Aston Martin V12 Vantage than a C7 Z06, but the Z06 would outperform the Aston all day.
So long story short, I think we're agreeing. Kinda.
As far as performance goes, I would have to disagree that just because a car costs more, that doesn't mean it should perform better. The Z06 costs less than a lot of things that it performs quite a bit better than. Things like rarity, fit and finish, imports, etc play into it a lot. I would much rather have an Aston Martin V12 Vantage than a C7 Z06, but the Z06 would outperform the Aston all day.
So long story short, I think we're agreeing. Kinda.
Personally, I would classify the Z06, GTR, and 991 as all designed for the primary purpose - performance. The Porsche, since it costs the most, can also bonus afford luxury items like fit and finish, refinement, etc.
In the end, I think we can agree all 3 cars perform fantastically. The Vette is definitely not "disappointing" simply because the 991 traps higher, and likewise, the 991 is not disappointing simply based on higher price
03-26-2015, 09:44 PM
#67
Team Owner
You sit around a drink beer all day. You tried to tell me that you're not in debt even though you financed your car for 84 months. I'm sure you know so much.
I don't know anything about cars? Maybe you should come tell my employer that, they'd like to know that one of their engineers for Fiat Chrysler has no knowledge
Why don't you give us some more economics lessons. You seem to know so much about that. Or tell us how they could have engineered the new Z06 better. What did you say? The Z07 version without any of the aero trim would be faster around a track than one with all of the aero bits on it? I'm sure all of the engineers at GM had no idea what they were doing and you know better. Please, continue to make grand engineering and economics claims. It's very entertaining to watch someone make a complete a$$ of themselves.
Oh, and since you asked so nicely, if the development costs of a car are way higher than another's, there are two ways to cover those costs.
1.) Sell a lot more cars (production numbers).
2.) Charge a lot more for your cars (lower production numbers and higher prices).
So development costs are directly related to production numbers and how much they charge. Now, if you really want your head to explode (I certainly do), factor in manufacturing costs into that equation.
Also note that I didn't say either was better.
Any other stupid questions I can answer for you?
Oh, and on a side note; Have you ever actually contributed anything meaningful to a conversation like this? Or do you only just use the same 3 lines "you're jealous, you can't afford it, you know nothing about cars"? Maybe people would actually respect you if you acted like an adult instead of a child throwing a fit when people are discussing two cars.
I don't know anything about cars? Maybe you should come tell my employer that, they'd like to know that one of their engineers for Fiat Chrysler has no knowledge
Why don't you give us some more economics lessons. You seem to know so much about that. Or tell us how they could have engineered the new Z06 better. What did you say? The Z07 version without any of the aero trim would be faster around a track than one with all of the aero bits on it? I'm sure all of the engineers at GM had no idea what they were doing and you know better. Please, continue to make grand engineering and economics claims. It's very entertaining to watch someone make a complete a$$ of themselves.
Oh, and since you asked so nicely, if the development costs of a car are way higher than another's, there are two ways to cover those costs.
1.) Sell a lot more cars (production numbers).
2.) Charge a lot more for your cars (lower production numbers and higher prices).
So development costs are directly related to production numbers and how much they charge. Now, if you really want your head to explode (I certainly do), factor in manufacturing costs into that equation.
Also note that I didn't say either was better.
Any other stupid questions I can answer for you?
Oh, and on a side note; Have you ever actually contributed anything meaningful to a conversation like this? Or do you only just use the same 3 lines "you're jealous, you can't afford it, you know nothing about cars"? Maybe people would actually respect you if you acted like an adult instead of a child throwing a fit when people are discussing two cars.
If you're so correct, why are so many people arguing with you? Oh I know because you're talking out of your a$$ as par usual. It's funny when you come into OT, try to make the C7 look bad, I say two things and get your dumb a$$ laughed right out of there. Same thing here, you think you know all about automobile manufacturing and sales when in all actuality you have a Wikipedia degree.
What should I tell your employer, just how much of a moron you are? Maybe if he read some of your posts he'd laugh his a$$ off too then punt your sorry a$$ to the unemployment line. Perhaps you should come talk to my boss.....oh yeah I forgot, I am my boss.
Hey genius tell me, what do you suppose the development costs were on a VW Beetle and just how many of those do you suppose were sold.....or how about a Honda Civic? So again I ask, what do development costs have to do with production numbers?
Last edited by themonk; 03-26-2015 at 09:46 PM.
03-27-2015, 09:17 AM
#68
Le Mans Master
I should have said when two cars are both designed for the same purpose (performance, luxury, offroad, etc.), then the one costing more typically outperforms the one costing less, in that specific metric. Obviously a Z06 will outperform a Rolls, and a $35k Jeep will out perform a $800k 918 off road...
Personally, I would classify the Z06, GTR, and 991 as all designed for the primary purpose - performance. The Porsche, since it costs the most, can also bonus afford luxury items like fit and finish, refinement, etc.
In the end, I think we can agree all 3 cars perform fantastically. The Vette is definitely not "disappointing" simply because the 991 traps higher, and likewise, the 991 is not disappointing simply based on higher price
Personally, I would classify the Z06, GTR, and 991 as all designed for the primary purpose - performance. The Porsche, since it costs the most, can also bonus afford luxury items like fit and finish, refinement, etc.
In the end, I think we can agree all 3 cars perform fantastically. The Vette is definitely not "disappointing" simply because the 991 traps higher, and likewise, the 991 is not disappointing simply based on higher price
Last edited by Crabbers; 03-27-2015 at 09:21 AM.
03-27-2015, 09:18 AM
#69
Le Mans Master
84 months huh, no wonder no one takes you seriously all you do is spew lies. Drink beer all day, well I just opened up my own car dealership, what have you done? Like I said, you know nothing about the car business, ZERO. Just because you have a car that doesn't make you an expert.
If you're so correct, why are so many people arguing with you? Oh I know because you're talking out of your a$$ as par usual. It's funny when you come into OT, try to make the C7 look bad, I say two things and get your dumb a$$ laughed right out of there. Same thing here, you think you know all about automobile manufacturing and sales when in all actuality you have a Wikipedia degree.
What should I tell your employer, just how much of a moron you are? Maybe if he read some of your posts he'd laugh his a$$ off too then punt your sorry a$$ to the unemployment line. Perhaps you should come talk to my boss.....oh yeah I forgot, I am my boss.
Hey genius tell me, what do you suppose the development costs were on a VW Beetle and just how many of those do you suppose were sold.....or how about a Honda Civic? So again I ask, what do development costs have to do with production numbers?
If you're so correct, why are so many people arguing with you? Oh I know because you're talking out of your a$$ as par usual. It's funny when you come into OT, try to make the C7 look bad, I say two things and get your dumb a$$ laughed right out of there. Same thing here, you think you know all about automobile manufacturing and sales when in all actuality you have a Wikipedia degree.
What should I tell your employer, just how much of a moron you are? Maybe if he read some of your posts he'd laugh his a$$ off too then punt your sorry a$$ to the unemployment line. Perhaps you should come talk to my boss.....oh yeah I forgot, I am my boss.
Hey genius tell me, what do you suppose the development costs were on a VW Beetle and just how many of those do you suppose were sold.....or how about a Honda Civic? So again I ask, what do development costs have to do with production numbers?
Are you really stupid enough to think that used car dealers have any influence on the MSRP? Do you know what MSRP even stands for? Manufacturer suggested retail price. As for what production numbers has to do with development costs, I already answered that about three times now. But instead of actually addressing the answer, you keep asking the question over and over while making idiotic claims.
You are probably the dumbest person on the forum, including the whack jobs in PR&C (and that's saying a lot). You don't really know anything about me sunshine. I think there are plenty of people on the forum that know what degree I hold and what I do for a living
Your idiocy is really tiring and really hurts my head. And I'm not just saying that because you're being an a$$. You really are stupid. You just don't know it. There's a very special place on my block list for you, so you can continue to post your insane ramblings, but I am going to save myself the brain cells and block them. It's depressing to know that people so completely and utterly moronic are walking this planet.
Last edited by Crabbers; 03-27-2015 at 09:27 AM.
03-27-2015, 11:20 AM
#70
Team Owner
Originally Posted by bothred
No one has ever mistaken my Vettes for VW's. Can't say that about a Porch.
No one has ever mistaken my Vettes for VW's. Can't say that about a Porch.
03-27-2015, 11:38 AM
#71
Melting Slicks
A Porsche is a Porsche is a Porsche.....nice cars but they always have that same look and.....everyone has one. The front end does look a lot like the bug. The C7 and the Z06 are show stoppers. They turn heads. Everyone doesn't have one and you don't see them everywhere you go. Although the Porsche may have some nicer qualities, it is just a face in the crowd where the C7/Z06 isn't.... GM targetted all angles equally to make these cars o special....and succeeded IMO. How many are just sick of people drooling over your car or videoing at every stop you make?
Last edited by AllFlash; 03-27-2015 at 11:43 AM.
03-27-2015, 11:45 AM
#72
Le Mans Master
A Porsche is a Porsche is a Porsche.....nice cars but they always have that same look and.....everyone has one. The front end does look a lot like the bug. The C7 and the Z06 are show stoppers. They turn heads. Everyone doesn't have one and you don't see them everywhere you go. Although the Porsche may have some nicer qualities, it is just a face in the crowd where the C7/Z06 isn't.... GM targetted all angles equally to make these cards so special....and succeeded IMO. How many are just sick of people drooling over your car or videoing at every stop you make?
At the risk of starting another war, there are a ton of C7s on the road. I'm glad you're enjoying your car, I really am. But it just isn't as rare as you're making it out to be.
Both cars turn heads. If you prefer the looks of the C7 then that's great
Some people disagree. You can have your opinion, and I respect that. I just respectfully disagree Before I get crucified for saying that, let me make it perfectly clear that I would rather have a C7 than some Porsches and then I'd rather have some Porsches than a C7. I like both cars and I have no allegiance to one brand or another. I just like quality automobiles.
03-27-2015, 11:57 AM
#73
Melting Slicks
i have no intent on crucifying you and appreciate your view point but, at least in my opinion, the new Porsche isn't recognized as anything but a Porsche by anyone but true car enthusiasts.
Price wise.... I am sure if many of us poor Vette lovers had the money for that car, we would still have a C7 or Z right beside her. For the money, I don't think anyone can argue that the Z at least is unmatched by any Supercar at its price point.
Price wise.... I am sure if many of us poor Vette lovers had the money for that car, we would still have a C7 or Z right beside her. For the money, I don't think anyone can argue that the Z at least is unmatched by any Supercar at its price point.
03-27-2015, 12:07 PM
#74
Le Mans Master
i have no intent on crucifying you and appreciate your view point but, at least in my opinion, the new Porsche isn't recognized as anything but a Porsche by anyone but true car enthusiasts.
Price wise.... I am sure if many of us poor Vette lovers had the money for that car, we would still have a C7 or Z right beside her. For the money, I don't think anyone can argue that the Z at least is unmatched by any Supercar at its price point.
Price wise.... I am sure if many of us poor Vette lovers had the money for that car, we would still have a C7 or Z right beside her. For the money, I don't think anyone can argue that the Z at least is unmatched by any Supercar at its price point.
And I agree with you on value for the money, the C7 and Z06 are two of the best values on the market (if not the best). However, just because someone doesn't have one doesn't mean they don't have the money, they just have a different preference in cars.
03-27-2015, 12:11 PM
#75
Team Owner
Originally Posted by AllFlash
A Porsche is a Porsche is a Porsche.....nice cars but they always have that same look and.....everyone has one. The front end does look a lot like the bug. The C7 and the Z06 are show stoppers. They turn heads. Everyone doesn't have one and you don't see them everywhere you go. Although the Porsche may have some nicer qualities, it is just a face in the crowd where the C7/Z06 isn't.... GM targetted all angles equally to make these cars o special....and succeeded IMO. How many are just sick of people drooling over your car or videoing at every stop you make?
A Porsche is a Porsche is a Porsche.....nice cars but they always have that same look and.....everyone has one. The front end does look a lot like the bug. The C7 and the Z06 are show stoppers. They turn heads. Everyone doesn't have one and you don't see them everywhere you go. Although the Porsche may have some nicer qualities, it is just a face in the crowd where the C7/Z06 isn't.... GM targetted all angles equally to make these cars o special....and succeeded IMO. How many are just sick of people drooling over your car or videoing at every stop you make?
You are correct though, the Corvette is definitely a more "in-your-face" design, and aside from some of the track Porsches like this GTRS (which look like race cars), the C7 has more of an exotic flavor than the 911. In fact, at first glance the C7 can be confused for a Ferrari or some other exotic.
Some of that will fade as the car becomes more common, but the design will always have more instant impact than the typical 911. In part because the 911 has looked very much the same for a long time.
However, what is a selling point in favor of Corvettes for you is a selling point in favor of 911s for many Porsche fans. I have a 2002 and most people assume it is new or nearly new. Beyond that though, much of the appeal to me and many others is the subtle, timeless beauty of the 911 design. I can tell what vintage I'm looking at from a glance... and I don't really care that most people can't.
One aspect is that to me curves are simply more beautiful than edges (most of the time). And there is a certain fairly unique advantage to the fact that Porsche keeps working to perfect the same essential design. Polishing the same diamond, so to speak. It's hard to explain, but for 911 fans the continuity is an essential part of the appeal.
In any case, definitely different strokes for different folks.
03-27-2015, 12:41 PM
#76
Melting Slicks
Good point and.... The name comes from the fact that a website I built years ago deals with flash memory. (Ie All Flash) This car is the result of that website, the likes of which this redneck might never have seen otherwise.
As a side, absolutely no intent to disrespect any Porsche in any way... Gorgeous cars...
As a side, absolutely no intent to disrespect any Porsche in any way... Gorgeous cars...
03-27-2015, 12:55 PM
#77
Le Mans Master
Good point and.... The name comes from the fact that a website I built years ago deals with flash memory. (Ie All Flash) This car is the result of that website, the likes of which this redneck might never have seen otherwise.
As a side, absolutely no intent to disrespect any Porsche in any way... Gorgeous cars...
As a side, absolutely no intent to disrespect any Porsche in any way... Gorgeous cars...
03-27-2015, 01:33 PM
#78
Team Owner
Good point and.... The name comes from the fact that a website I built years ago deals with flash memory. (Ie All Flash) This car is the result of that website, the likes of which this redneck might never have seen otherwise.
As a side, absolutely no intent to disrespect any Porsche in any way... Gorgeous cars...
As a side, absolutely no intent to disrespect any Porsche in any way... Gorgeous cars...
04-03-2015, 11:53 AM
#80
for the life i me i don't understand why anyone raves about a car being better that costs many tens of thousands, or even 6 figures, more than a vette. well, it damn well should be better in many ways for that kind of money!
if anything, it proves that the vette is such an incredible value and seems to be a benchmark of sorts.
funny, that.
if anything, it proves that the vette is such an incredible value and seems to be a benchmark of sorts.
funny, that.
****** hot!