Is 650 hp too much? Head of Porsche Thinks so...
05-23-2015, 07:51 PM
#21
Alcoholics Unanimous
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St. Jude Donor '15-'16
The headline of the original article (if one searches for it: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-new...wer-arms-race/) isn't the HP talk, it's that Porsche is conceding that they need to go back to offering manual transmissions in their GT cars.
So even the manufacturer of one of the best automatic transmissions in the world is doing a 180 and saying that there's a rightful place for manual transmission in the purist market ... so much for the argument that manuals are to be discarded and regarded as outdated technology.
So even the manufacturer of one of the best automatic transmissions in the world is doing a 180 and saying that there's a rightful place for manual transmission in the purist market ... so much for the argument that manuals are to be discarded and regarded as outdated technology.
05-23-2015, 08:09 PM
#22
Racer
There's no such thing as a low torque engine that's fun to drive that isn't on a bike imo.
I've driven 3 Porsche cars over the years and meh. The sound is deplorable, the torque gutless on the non turbo cars.
Now if Porsche, put a V8 in their cars that has this thing called torque...that'd be a different story.
Coolest Porsche I've ever seen had an SBC stuffed in the front.
The reality of the situation is, that Porsche, can't keep up with American, British and Italian offerings in the power department without making it a 1 million dollar car. There is no replacement, for displacement. Or # of cylinders for that matter.
I've driven 3 Porsche cars over the years and meh. The sound is deplorable, the torque gutless on the non turbo cars.
Now if Porsche, put a V8 in their cars that has this thing called torque...that'd be a different story.
Coolest Porsche I've ever seen had an SBC stuffed in the front.
The reality of the situation is, that Porsche, can't keep up with American, British and Italian offerings in the power department without making it a 1 million dollar car. There is no replacement, for displacement. Or # of cylinders for that matter.
There are true die-hards for one type of car or manufacturer, which is quite ok, but I like them all as each car gives an awesome, unique experience in a particular environment: Hellcat's, Z06's, GT3's/Turbos, GTR's, Ford GT's, new Camaro Z28's, etc.
This is my take for what I currently have:
1. GTR = downright nasty and violent at 680 AWP. Hook's up like a bastard.
2. FordGT = ultimate driving experience and cruiser, bar-none, wicked low to the ground.
3. 991 GT3 = no hot feet, legs or cabin (rear-engine), easy daily driver, 9000 rpm noise is unreal, nimble as hell, well balanced.
4. 2011 Carbon Edition Z06 = comfortable highway cruiser, beautiful exhaust crackle noise, sinister looking, represents All-American
*2015 Z28 and C7 z06 coming later this year.
Last edited by corvettemonster; 05-23-2015 at 08:32 PM.
05-23-2015, 08:29 PM
#23
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Watch the video of the gent punting his 650hp Z06 into tree, the numerous videos of guys crashing their modified whatever's and there is also merit to the argument that 99% of the worlds drivers can't handle 500+ HP unless the traction and stability control is working to rain in the power to what? 450, 420 RWHP, because today's drivers, roads can't handle the additional power. So I agree with him, more power creates more weight and IMHO, most can't use the power anyway.
I'd take a balanced 400-420 RWHP, 3100lb, balanced car that can put the power down after an apex without having to worry which tree I'm about to become one with.
I'd take a balanced 400-420 RWHP, 3100lb, balanced car that can put the power down after an apex without having to worry which tree I'm about to become one with.
Last edited by Indyzoh6; 05-23-2015 at 08:32 PM.
05-23-2015, 08:54 PM
#24
Race Director
I ran across a 914 with a twin turbo 350 SBC stuffed behind the drivers seat in SoCal in 1982.
It was faster than my Suzuki 1100GS on Imperial Hwy. THAT is the only time I cracked the throttle wide open on the 1100,a nd he was still pulling away.
I couldn't keep up with it.
Doug
05-23-2015, 09:04 PM
#25
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor'15
Mehhhh.....sounds like sour grapes.
For me, the bottom line is this:
--Their engine will never produce that kind of high power as American cars do. They've stayed with that basic engine for a long time-same as the body style.
--Porsche doesn't really care about high horsepower engines and never will. They are more focused on the driver experience rather than horsepower.
--Maybe they're feeling pressure from their loyal following because so many upper end cars are pumping out more and more power.
Yes, the driver experience is optimum, but maybe it's "gotta give the people what they want".....this is their answer to that (just my guess). It's their justification....they're telling their buyers, "If you want a great driver's experience, we're your guys. If you want more horsepower, look elsewhere."
For me, the bottom line is this:
--Their engine will never produce that kind of high power as American cars do. They've stayed with that basic engine for a long time-same as the body style.
--Porsche doesn't really care about high horsepower engines and never will. They are more focused on the driver experience rather than horsepower.
--Maybe they're feeling pressure from their loyal following because so many upper end cars are pumping out more and more power.
Yes, the driver experience is optimum, but maybe it's "gotta give the people what they want".....this is their answer to that (just my guess). It's their justification....they're telling their buyers, "If you want a great driver's experience, we're your guys. If you want more horsepower, look elsewhere."
05-23-2015, 09:17 PM
#26
Le Mans Master
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2019 Corvette of the Year Winner
St. Jude Donor '15
Not within the reaches of most people.....certainly not for $100k or even $150k.......so again if you can't compete then you say it isn't needed....all manufacturers regardless of the market that is served will say things like that when there are holes in their product lines.....
05-23-2015, 09:27 PM
#27
Melting Slicks
Each manufacturer has different objectives for what they put out there. A true car enthusiast has almost no room for criticism. Usually the limiting factor of having 5,6,7, etc. cars is money.
There are true die-hards for one type of car or manufacturer, which is quite ok, but I like them all as each car gives an awesome, unique experience in a particular environment: Hellcat's, Z06's, GT3's/Turbos, GTR's, Ford GT's, new Camaro Z28's, etc.
This is my take for what I currently have:
1. GTR = downright nasty and violent at 680 AWP. Hook's up like a bastard.
2. FordGT = ultimate driving experience and cruiser, bar-none, wicked low to the ground.
3. 991 GT3 = no hot feet, legs or cabin (rear-engine), easy daily driver, 9000 rpm noise is unreal, nimble as hell, well balanced.
4. 2011 Carbon Edition Z06 = comfortable highway cruiser, beautiful exhaust crackle noise, sinister looking, represents All-American
*2015 Z28 and C7 z06 coming later this year.
There are true die-hards for one type of car or manufacturer, which is quite ok, but I like them all as each car gives an awesome, unique experience in a particular environment: Hellcat's, Z06's, GT3's/Turbos, GTR's, Ford GT's, new Camaro Z28's, etc.
This is my take for what I currently have:
1. GTR = downright nasty and violent at 680 AWP. Hook's up like a bastard.
2. FordGT = ultimate driving experience and cruiser, bar-none, wicked low to the ground.
3. 991 GT3 = no hot feet, legs or cabin (rear-engine), easy daily driver, 9000 rpm noise is unreal, nimble as hell, well balanced.
4. 2011 Carbon Edition Z06 = comfortable highway cruiser, beautiful exhaust crackle noise, sinister looking, represents All-American
*2015 Z28 and C7 z06 coming later this year.
For example, my biggest criticism with my C4? Lack of power. It's an SBC.... that's so easily addressed. It's a problem that I have started taking steps to address since owning it, bolt ons first of course, and now a little more radical I have a paxton blower waiting to go on, and eventually it's going to have a dart 400 block with forged internals stuffed in it. After that? Interior, and lack of modern amenities. I've already started on that, with the touchscreen stereo receiver, soundsystem.
My 86 Z-28? Lack of power, brakes, and IRS. (compared to a new car at least) I have a 454, that's going to end up with a 489 stroker in it, a hyd roller cam, some aluminum heads, exhaust, and eventually a supercharger, or turbocharger. I'm aiming to try to stuff a Gen 5 Camaro SS's IRS in the back. Already took care of the brakes.
The Porsches? For me, the first thing that has to happen, it would need a V8. The V8 has always had the most appealing exhaust note to me. The V12, is right behind it, and third is a higher revving 5liter ish V10. That'd limit me either to 80s P cars with the v8s and hope that they're capable of getting enough power out of them to be up to modern car standards, or swapping in an LSX...on a brand new car. A brand new, very expensive car. It's not like I'd be V8 Swapping an FR-S, Solstice or something.
The exhaust note, to me along with the lower end grunt is every bit as important to the driving experience as the handling dynamics. And I consider handling a critical area of the car.
Some of the bikes, the newer 1000s are a little too small in the sport bikes. They aren't particularly comfortable to ride on. That was one of the reasons I wound up with the ZX14R other than that it's stupid quick. I'm leaning on ditching the last of my bikes though. I've gotten a little tired of getting rained on on the way home, and the risks that come with riding a bike, on the same roads in NC where, 70 percent of the population can't even seem to manage to keep a chevy cruze between the yellow and white lines.
Last edited by MavsAK; 05-23-2015 at 09:31 PM.
05-23-2015, 10:11 PM
#28
Racer
Oh there's always room for criticism. If there wasn't there wouldn't be an aftermarket after all. There's plenty of things I don't like about several cars, and some of the bikes, I've owned. The question is, what criticism you have towards a given vehicle... is it something you can correct, easily?
For example, my biggest criticism with my C4? Lack of power. It's an SBC.... that's so easily addressed. It's a problem that I have started taking steps to address since owning it, bolt ons first of course, and now a little more radical I have a paxton blower waiting to go on, and eventually it's going to have a dart 400 block with forged internals stuffed in it. After that? Interior, and lack of modern amenities. I've already started on that, with the touchscreen stereo receiver, soundsystem.
My 86 Z-28? Lack of power, brakes, and IRS. (compared to a new car at least) I have a 454, that's going to end up with a 489 stroker in it, a hyd roller cam, some aluminum heads, exhaust, and eventually a supercharger, or turbocharger. I'm aiming to try to stuff a Gen 5 Camaro SS's IRS in the back. Already took care of the brakes.
The Porsches? For me, the first thing that has to happen, it would need a V8. The V8 has always had the most appealing exhaust note to me. The V12, is right behind it, and third is a higher revving 5liter ish V10. That'd limit me either to 80s P cars with the v8s and hope that they're capable of getting enough power out of them to be up to modern car standards, or swapping in an LSX...on a brand new car. A brand new, very expensive car. It's not like I'd be V8 Swapping an FR-S, Solstice or something.
The exhaust note, to me along with the lower end grunt is every bit as important to the driving experience as the handling dynamics. And I consider handling a critical area of the car.
Some of the bikes, the newer 1000s are a little too small in the sport bikes. They aren't particularly comfortable to ride on. That was one of the reasons I wound up with the ZX14R other than that it's stupid quick. I'm leaning on ditching the last of my bikes though. I've gotten a little tired of getting rained on on the way home, and the risks that come with riding a bike, on the same roads in NC where, 70 percent of the population can't even seem to manage to keep a chevy cruze between the yellow and white lines.
For example, my biggest criticism with my C4? Lack of power. It's an SBC.... that's so easily addressed. It's a problem that I have started taking steps to address since owning it, bolt ons first of course, and now a little more radical I have a paxton blower waiting to go on, and eventually it's going to have a dart 400 block with forged internals stuffed in it. After that? Interior, and lack of modern amenities. I've already started on that, with the touchscreen stereo receiver, soundsystem.
My 86 Z-28? Lack of power, brakes, and IRS. (compared to a new car at least) I have a 454, that's going to end up with a 489 stroker in it, a hyd roller cam, some aluminum heads, exhaust, and eventually a supercharger, or turbocharger. I'm aiming to try to stuff a Gen 5 Camaro SS's IRS in the back. Already took care of the brakes.
The Porsches? For me, the first thing that has to happen, it would need a V8. The V8 has always had the most appealing exhaust note to me. The V12, is right behind it, and third is a higher revving 5liter ish V10. That'd limit me either to 80s P cars with the v8s and hope that they're capable of getting enough power out of them to be up to modern car standards, or swapping in an LSX...on a brand new car. A brand new, very expensive car. It's not like I'd be V8 Swapping an FR-S, Solstice or something.
The exhaust note, to me along with the lower end grunt is every bit as important to the driving experience as the handling dynamics. And I consider handling a critical area of the car.
Some of the bikes, the newer 1000s are a little too small in the sport bikes. They aren't particularly comfortable to ride on. That was one of the reasons I wound up with the ZX14R other than that it's stupid quick. I'm leaning on ditching the last of my bikes though. I've gotten a little tired of getting rained on on the way home, and the risks that come with riding a bike, on the same roads in NC where, 70 percent of the population can't even seem to manage to keep a chevy cruze between the yellow and white lines.
05-24-2015, 02:28 AM
#30
Depends. There's a place for both high and lower HP cars.
Racetracks: lower HP cars are best; don't heat up as fast as higher HP cars.
Dragstrips: higher HP cars are best, obviously.
My 2014 GT3 is better on a track than my 2011 Carbon Edition or my friend's C7 Z06. These 3.8 Liter 475 HP engines just keep going and going and going. Truly no substitute for a Porsche in a track setting.
650HP in the hands of a rowdy street racer can be very dangerous or deadly on public roads.
I do, however, plan to take my future 2016 C7 Z06 to the strip or open airport race events.
Racetracks: lower HP cars are best; don't heat up as fast as higher HP cars.
Dragstrips: higher HP cars are best, obviously.
My 2014 GT3 is better on a track than my 2011 Carbon Edition or my friend's C7 Z06. These 3.8 Liter 475 HP engines just keep going and going and going. Truly no substitute for a Porsche in a track setting.
650HP in the hands of a rowdy street racer can be very dangerous or deadly on public roads.
I do, however, plan to take my future 2016 C7 Z06 to the strip or open airport race events.
05-24-2015, 10:00 AM
#32
Melting Slicks
There's room for everyone in the hobby
I'm more of a restomod guy usually. Wrenching can be almost as much fun as driving.
To me New Cars I look at for parts potential to go into older rides usually. Though the C7's just so stellar looking, and judging from a brief stint in one... so stellar driving, that I could well see it being my first New Car, or slightly used car. Never been able to say that about a car before.
I'm more of a restomod guy usually. Wrenching can be almost as much fun as driving.
To me New Cars I look at for parts potential to go into older rides usually. Though the C7's just so stellar looking, and judging from a brief stint in one... so stellar driving, that I could well see it being my first New Car, or slightly used car. Never been able to say that about a car before.
Last edited by MavsAK; 05-24-2015 at 10:03 AM.
05-24-2015, 01:40 PM
#33
Each manufacturer has different objectives for what they put out there. A true car enthusiast has almost no room for criticism. Usually the limiting factor of having 5,6,7, etc. cars is money.
There are true die-hards for one type of car or manufacturer, which is quite ok, but I like them all as each car gives an awesome, unique experience in a particular environment: Hellcat's, Z06's, GT3's/Turbos, GTR's, Ford GT's, new Camaro Z28's, etc.
This is my take for what I currently have:
1. GTR = downright nasty and violent at 680 AWP. Hook's up like a bastard.
2. FordGT = ultimate driving experience and cruiser, bar-none, wicked low to the ground.
3. 991 GT3 = no hot feet, legs or cabin (rear-engine), easy daily driver, 9000 rpm noise is unreal, nimble as hell, well balanced.
4. 2011 Carbon Edition Z06 = comfortable highway cruiser, beautiful exhaust crackle noise, sinister looking, represents All-American
*2015 Z28 and C7 z06 coming later this year.
There are true die-hards for one type of car or manufacturer, which is quite ok, but I like them all as each car gives an awesome, unique experience in a particular environment: Hellcat's, Z06's, GT3's/Turbos, GTR's, Ford GT's, new Camaro Z28's, etc.
This is my take for what I currently have:
1. GTR = downright nasty and violent at 680 AWP. Hook's up like a bastard.
2. FordGT = ultimate driving experience and cruiser, bar-none, wicked low to the ground.
3. 991 GT3 = no hot feet, legs or cabin (rear-engine), easy daily driver, 9000 rpm noise is unreal, nimble as hell, well balanced.
4. 2011 Carbon Edition Z06 = comfortable highway cruiser, beautiful exhaust crackle noise, sinister looking, represents All-American
*2015 Z28 and C7 z06 coming later this year.
05-24-2015, 09:35 PM
#34
Race Director
There is no doubt in my mind that 90% of the chest pumping "high horsepower" junkies on this forum would be quicker in any racing format in a 500 horsepower AWD Porsche Turbo than in a 650 horsepower Z06. More horsepower doesn't always translate to faster times. Most people here just think it does because racer-X ran this time in his Z06 at this track or that. When in all actuality most couldn't come within a second of these times.
05-24-2015, 10:22 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
05-24-2015, 11:59 PM
#36
Scraping the splitter.
05-25-2015, 12:21 AM
#37
Burning Brakes
I'm well aware of the 918 drive-line design. The car still has 887 HP.
That's not to mention the 911 GT1, 3.2-liter flat-six engine with 700 HP. Such crappy engineering.
That's not to mention the 911 GT1, 3.2-liter flat-six engine with 700 HP. Such crappy engineering.
Last edited by Callsign_Vega; 05-25-2015 at 12:27 AM.
05-25-2015, 04:34 AM
#38
There is no doubt in my mind that 90% of the chest pumping "high horsepower" junkies on this forum would be quicker in any racing format in a 500 horsepower AWD Porsche Turbo than in a 650 horsepower Z06. More horsepower doesn't always translate to faster times. Most people here just think it does because racer-X ran this time in his Z06 at this track or that. When in all actuality most couldn't come within a second of these times.
It is amusing, and comical to read some of the posts that claim Porsche does not know how to make great engines.
05-25-2015, 06:57 PM
#39
Racer
Are you going to give up any of those beauties when you get your Z28 and Z06? Curious to know which are worth giving up. I was cross shopping with a GT3, but didn't have the 150k when some were readily available new. Waited and then decided to settle and have a high output car in the Z06 while I'm younger, and a track beginner to tame it. Will I regret this decision now that I could have afforded either albeit a used GT3 tends to cost more than a new one! My car is shipped to me on Thursday and will be my new DD.
Won't sell the others as I like them too much.
I don't think you made a bad decision overall except I will say this; you probably would've broken even had you gone with the GT3, simply because the produce such limited numbers and are always sought after. I had an opportunity to buy a gray with red wheels 997 GT3 RS with 2,500 miles in late 2012 for 125K but passed on it, and now can kick myself - can't find one for less than 175K with decent miles. I bought my 991 GT3 for 140K and can get roughly 148-150K for it now.
Buying the right car(s) are actually an investment - unlike what most people think. I could sell my FGT for well over 100K more than I bought if for, so they way I see it, I'm making money driving it
I truly think the 2015 Z28 Camaro is undervalued and will be a collector without a doubt (low production, two year production, etc.) I came across an incredible deal and about to pull the trigger on a black/black 2015 Z28 for 64K which is dirt, dirt cheap for the amount of car that it is, not to mention it just looks bad-***.
I'm holding off on the C7 ZO6 until some of the current issues are resolved, which they will be. Typical first here BS.
Last edited by corvettemonster; 05-25-2015 at 10:16 PM.
05-25-2015, 09:43 PM
#40
Scraping the splitter.
The Carrera GT made 605 hp, but it weighed 3040#.
S.
