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Old 07-02-2012, 11:06 PM   #21
PeterK
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I would disagree with that. They could work for a biotech, a consulting firm etc. I know a number of people that got their MD's and went to work for Mckinsey.
Biotechs and pharma don't hire physicians en mass - these companies are run by MBAs, molecular biologists, geneticists and chemists. Looks at the mid-level personnel rolls of any big company - nearly all of them have either business or scientific degrees.
Yes, these industries hire physicians, mainly to run and supervise clinical trials - but these jobs only pay par and require a life of traveling. Same goes for consulting and sales jobs. And yes, a physician can become a scientist - but that would be a waste of his/her education.

Look at whom pfizer is recruiting in their oncology division. Even their medical directors are typically Phd + MBA types because they mainly deal with sales and market shares, because that's what these companies do.
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25 Administrative Assistant II 07/02/2012 United States-New York-New York
967924 RD Franchise Medical Director, Consumer Healthcare 07/02/2012 United States-New Jersey-Madison
967922 RD Franchise Medical Director, Consumer Healthcare 07/02/2012 United States-New Jersey-Madison
967920 Senior Healthcare Representative, Institutional Sales, Specialty Care BU - Washington, DC 07/02/2012 United States-District of Columbia-Washington
967917 Senior Cleaning Chemistry Scientist 07/02/2012 United States-Massachusetts-Andover
967916 Associate Husbandry Educator 07/02/2012 United States-Iowa-Ames
965925 Associate Therapeutic Specialist/ Therapeutic Specialist 07/02/2012 United States-California-San Fernando
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965309 Professional Healthcare Representative, Primary Care BU - Lubbock, TX 07/02/2012 United States-Texas-Lubbock
967868 Process Operator 06/29/2012 United States-West Virginia-Willow Island

Last edited by PeterK; 07-02-2012 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:14 PM   #22
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doc stats like that have been around long before obamacare
Links to back this up
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:17 PM   #23
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Sorry, but I don't see that happening. What will they do, go into business?
Research.

Plus a lot are reaching retirement age.

PPACA attempted to address the 'loss' of medical professionals by tax relief for those attending and graduating from med school - long term outlook.

As to the AMA, they were in favor for specific reasons - one of the most important is it grants doctors and hospitals an 'out' for malpractice - if HSS says the Cat Scan test/treatment is not needed to determine if that 40 lb growth in your chest is malignent, or not, tuff sh*t. Live with it, or die, makes no never mind.

Another is the AMA can now basically force into the 'provider' arena the 'witch doctors' and nurses and technicians from third world 'schooling' - on yes, they will be required to pass a 'comprehensive' exam - until the number of doctors are overwhelmed with patients - and then the exams will become akin to tests given today for GED's.

Like I have said before - the average person is going to get socialized medicine similar to that offered in Russia. The Government/Legislative/Judicial, and me, will get the best care possible - it is 'underground', private and expensive.
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:20 AM   #24
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Another is the AMA can now basically force into the 'provider' arena the 'witch doctors' and nurses and technicians from third world 'schooling' - on yes, they will be required to pass a 'comprehensive' exam - until the number of doctors are overwhelmed with patients - and then the exams will become akin to tests given today for GED's.
What? I always hear that third worlders in medicine, engineering and IT are "the best and the brightest" that the world has to offer.

I'm sure there are a lot of doctors that are Obamacare fans. The death squad proponents:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/poli...uthanasia.html

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Sure he's a hero.
He's treading into areas that other doctors just don't have the ***** to, but probably should from time to time.
There are cases when active euthanasia should be an open and appropriate medically indicated treatment plan.
And I believe it will happen with time.
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The difference is that Dr. K's services were requested and he acted in the patients best interest. He's moving the ball in the right direction down the court. The next step is more careful involvement by a dedicated panel of other doctors, lawyers and ethics specialists.
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Old 07-03-2012, 01:19 AM   #25
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I think ACA will be good for an average physician because of the reduced hassle of dealing with insurance and having patients who can actually pay for the services.
The cluelessness inherent in that statement beggars the imagination. Seriously, how can anyone believe that life will get simpler dealing with what could turn out to be hundreds of new government bureaucracies, in addition to the existing ones, in addition to existing ones that didn't use to come into play (like the IRS), while still dealing with private insurers that we are all required by the law to contract with?

And, overwhelmingly, patients don't pay for services, their insurance company does.

No surprise to find massive healthcare system ignorance going hand in hand with support for Obamacare - the two can only survive in each other's company.
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Old 07-03-2012, 01:22 AM   #26
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As opposed to the survey that was only answered by 4.3% of the pool?
The difference being the AMA is politicized and is known to be more academics and liberal leaning. The survey is a wider, more diverse control group. I guess we can see that stats wasn't your strong point is school.
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Old 07-03-2012, 01:29 AM   #27
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I'm saying that in context that outside of the practicining what they know there is not a lot of employment opportunities for a physician if he/she chooses to leave the field. What would a radiologist do outside of putting his or her knowledge to reading cases? I mean, where can he/she put her knowledge of the different MRI contrasts when it comes to evaluation of the knee ligaments or shoulder cartilage?

So, there is little risk that a large proportion of practicing doctors will leave the field because of the ACA. Plus, the vast majority of them came into the field because they like what they do and financial rewards is a secondary factor.
There are plenty of high paying opportunities for MD's that decide they want to do something else. My prior Dermatologist recently quit and is now farming. My prior PC moved to Texas and is now a hospital Director. MD's aren't stupid and are highly employable.
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Old 07-03-2012, 01:55 AM   #28
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You are so full of yourself sometimes, it is over the top. Show me one other profession that has the level of education and training required of doctors. If you think they have it so easy, then you should have gone to med school.
First off, lots of jobs require a doctorate degree.

Second, the AMA limits the number of people who can become doctors in order to keep wages up.

Look at the number of people who go to medical school outside the country. Remember Granada? Troops went in to protect American MEDICAL students.

Of course, it take money to study medicine abroad.

Also, if your father was a dermatologist, you have a better shot at getting in that school than Joe Blow would.

Doctors work hard, make a lot of money and try to keep their numbers down, like any good union would.
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Old 07-03-2012, 02:09 AM   #29
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Physicians are a pretty spoiled bunch. An active medical license can virtually guarantee an employment with a six digit income. Something that no other profession that I know about affords its practitioners.
Fortunately, YOU don't get to determine what other people make. Just what, praytell, do you do for a living?

PS - a good engineer in my field will crack six figures with about five years experience. If you're a petroleum geologist or engineer, you can make $120,000 right out of school working in the Athabasca basin . You should get out more often.
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Old 07-03-2012, 02:30 AM   #30
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First off, lots of jobs require a doctorate degree.

Second, the AMA limits the number of people who can become doctors in order to keep wages up.

Look at the number of people who go to medical school outside the country. Remember Granada? Troops went in to protect American MEDICAL students.

Of course, it take money to study medicine abroad.

Also, if your father was a dermatologist, you have a better shot at getting in that school than Joe Blow would.

Doctors work hard, make a lot of money and try to keep their numbers down, like any good union would.
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Controlling the supply

The marketplace doesn't determine how many doctors the nation has, as it does for engineers, pilots and other professions. The number of doctors is a political decision, heavily influenced by doctors themselves.

Congress controls the supply of physicians by how much federal funding it provides for medical residencies — the graduate training required of all doctors.

To become a physician, students spend four years in medical school. Graduates then spend three to seven years training as residents, usually treating patients under supervision at a hospital. Residents work long hours for $35,000 to $50,000 a year. Even doctors trained in other countries must serve medical residencies in the USA to practice here.

Medicare, which provides health care to the nation's seniors, also is the primary federal agency that controls the supply of doctors. It reimburses hospitals for the cost of training medical residents.

The government spends about $11 billion annually on 100,000 medical residents, or roughly $110,000 per resident. The number of residents has hovered at this level for the past decade, according to the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education.

In 1997, to save money and prevent a doctor glut, Congress capped the number of residents that Medicare will pay for at about 80,000 a year. Another 20,000 residents are financed by the Veterans Administration and Medicaid, the state-federal health care program for the poor. Teaching hospitals pay for a small number of residents without government assistance.

Medicare, which faces enormous financial pressure in coming decades, already spends 3% of its budget training physicians and may not have the resources to spend more.

Cooper says the nation needs 200,000 more physicians because aging and wealthy countries demand more health care.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...shortage_x.htm
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:13 AM   #31
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Jimb has zero clue.
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:16 AM   #32
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Biotechs and pharma don't hire physicians en mass - these companies are run by MBAs, molecular biologists, geneticists and chemists. Looks at the mid-level personnel rolls of any big company - nearly all of them have either business or scientific degrees.
Yes, these industries hire physicians, mainly to run and supervise clinical trials - but these jobs only pay par and require a life of traveling. Same goes for consulting and sales jobs. And yes, a physician can become a scientist - but that would be a waste of his/her education.

Look at whom pfizer is recruiting in their oncology division. Even their medical directors are typically Phd + MBA types because they mainly deal with sales and market shares, because that's what these companies do.
What do you think most of these doctors have for undergrad degrees? Lots of biology, chem, bio-chem degrees.
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:38 AM   #33
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Honestly?

I really don't know what to say about Doctors, what they can and do earn or how they view Obamacare, the current (not yet socialized system) or even the potential for single payer off in the future.


There is a pretty obviously conflicted interest here between what may or may not be best for society and patients and any doctor's ability to make a decent income.


It really comes down to how you view the delivery of healthcare.

If it's a service to be paid for....... not a "cradle to grave"birth-right" then Doctors should have very little to worry about. History suggest they'll always be among the best paid professions......and why not?

What's more important to any of us than good health?
(as my Grandmother used to say, "If you haven't got your health nothing else much matters")

On the other-hand.........if society decides access to healthcare is a "Birth-right" then the future for doctors is pretty bleak.

They are gonna work far longer hours for far less money as society is NOT a bottomless pit of money to pay for the care that will be so much more freely accessed.

I'm not making a moral suggestion of which way to go here.......it's just a realistic assessment.

Doctors are worth listening to......... but their's is hardly an objective, unbiased opinion. You have to keep that in mind when-ever they speak to the issue. Anyone attempting to take anything away from these statistics really MUST recognise......there is a lot of self-interested thinking going on here........even I can see it despite the idea that I think health care should continue to be delivered in a system that moves toward the free market rather than the idea of being fully socialized too.
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:47 AM   #34
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Physicians are a pretty spoiled bunch. An active medical license can virtually guarantee an employment with a six digit income. Something that no other profession that I know about affords its practitioners.
True, but it will also guarantee long hours. That active medical license will also take you 12-18 years of post high school education and training, which is very expensive. The IRR is pretty poor on the investment.

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Originally Posted by PeterK View Post
I think ACA will be good for an average physician because of the reduced hassle of dealing with insurance and having patients who can actually pay for the services. ACA will certainly be good for the hospitals, esp the teaching hospitals which now cannot recover nearly 30-40% of their costs because of the number of uninsured patients.
Wrong, just wrong.

The insurance isn't going away at all, just more regulations to comply with. Physicians don't treat uninsured patients anyway, certainly not those in PP.

ACA is about the hospitals, plain and simple.

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Oh, I'm just being frank, a medical school curriculum is just two years of basic post graduate classes at 15 credits/semester + two years of practical training. It is grueling but not particularly difficult. In fact, nearly everyone who enters the medical school will graduate and the vast majority will pass USMLE on the first try. The real training occurs on-the-job - that's where the real experience is gotten.
Largely true, but then why aren't more people lining up? Because the pay/hour/stress ratio is screwed. A lot of these people are realizing there are better jobs out there.

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There are plenty of high paying opportunities for MD's that decide they want to do something else. My prior Dermatologist recently quit and is now farming. My prior PC moved to Texas and is now a hospital Director. MD's aren't stupid and are highly employable.
Not really. An MD is a pretty unique and limited skillset so it is not super transferrable. However, the real risk is that a ton of the 55-70 year physicians simply up and quit. They can do that because they made their money in the 80's and 90's and many of them are sitting on a pile of cash.

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First off, lots of jobs require a doctorate degree.
No.

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Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
Second, the AMA limits the number of people who can become doctors in order to keep wages up.
You give the AMA too much credit.

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Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
Look at the number of people who go to medical school outside the country. Remember Granada? Troops went in to protect American MEDICAL students.
Look at the quality of FMG's, there is a reason why no good residency program will take them.

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Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
Of course, it take money to study medicine abroad.
It's roughly the same price as domestic med school.

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Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
Also, if your father was a dermatologist, you have a better shot at getting in that school than Joe Blow would.
L.O.L.

Not even true. Alumni relationships matter jack and crap, unless your last name is on a building or two. That's true for any good programs in any field nowadays.


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Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
Doctors work hard, make a lot of money and try to keep their numbers down, like any good union would.
You realize most physicians make between 150-250k a year, right? They also work 70-80 hours a week? Look at that on an hourly basis.

I bet if you ask most physicians if they would be willing to take a federal job for 200k/yr + standard federal benefits and conditions, they would all jump. Just to work the 40 hours a week and take 4 weeks of vacation a year. I know my wife would be gone so fast her office chair would be spinning.

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Originally Posted by Krystal View Post
Honestly?

I really don't know what to say about Doctors, what they can and do earn or how they view Obamacare, the current (not yet socialized system) or even the potential for single payer off in the future.
It is really just confusion right now honestly. No one really knows what to expect or what the impact will be. It also has major geographic spreads.

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They are gonna work far longer hours for far less money as society is NOT a bottomless pit of money to pay for the care that will be so much more freely accessed.
That's not true. Simply reason, docs are working as much as they possibly can at this point. Most PP docs in particular are working 60-80 hours a week, taking very little time off, skipping lunch and taking a to of work home. There is no more give in the "work more".
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:55 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
First off, lots of jobs require a doctorate degree.

Second, the AMA limits the number of people who can become doctors in order to keep wages up.

Look at the number of people who go to medical school outside the country. Remember Granada? Troops went in to protect American MEDICAL students.

Of course, it take money to study medicine abroad.

Also, if your father was a dermatologist, you have a better shot at getting in that school than Joe Blow would.

Doctors work hard, make a lot of money and try to keep their numbers down, like any good union would.
Listen to rumors much?

A doctorate, assuming you mean a PhD, is vastly different than the training an MD goes through. At U of Michigan, a top engineering program, for example, you need 37 classroom hours (3-4 semesters) and a thesis. You typically get free tuition and a 20K+ stipend. Research on a thesis is a joke compared to clinical hours an MD student works. If you are bright and dedicated, you are out in 4-5 years, compared to typically 8-12 years of horrendous hours for docs.

The AMA doesn't control the amount of docs, the number of facilities known as med schools do. Not very many schools are rushing out to start new med schools due to the expense and time involved. Where do you get this info.

Kids go overseas to study because they can't get in to school in the US, meaning, generally, they weren't as good academically. They often get second rate residencies.

Having parents that are docs doesn't help very much getting into school these day....top grades and MCAT scores, on the other hand, help much more. The only avenue that is still open is underrepresented minorities and even there, they are generally qualified but not to the same level as the top students.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:28 AM   #36
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Not really. An MD is a pretty unique and limited skillset so it is not super transferrable.
You are making the assumption they want to stay in the medical profession. They all have at a minimum undergraduate degrees. They are employable in many areas from business to healthcare.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:51 AM   #37
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Research.

Plus a lot are reaching retirement age.

PPACA attempted to address the 'loss' of medical professionals by tax relief for those attending and graduating from med school - long term outlook.

As to the AMA, they were in favor for specific reasons - one of the most important is it grants doctors and hospitals an 'out' for malpractice - if HSS says the Cat Scan test/treatment is not needed to determine if that 40 lb growth in your chest is malignent, or not, tuff sh*t. Live with it, or die, makes no never mind.

Another is the AMA can now basically force into the 'provider' arena the 'witch doctors' and nurses and technicians from third world 'schooling' - on yes, they will be required to pass a 'comprehensive' exam - until the number of doctors are overwhelmed with patients - and then the exams will become akin to tests given today for GED's.

Like I have said before - the average person is going to get socialized medicine similar to that offered in Russia. The Government/Legislative/Judicial, and me, will get the best care possible - it is 'underground', private and expensive.
I said "business" tongue in cheek as docs have reps as being lousy businessmen. As far as research goes, most med schools have MD/PhD programs for medical scientists, a great deal if that is your interest as the programs are fully paid for and you end up with a dual degree and no debt.

The AMA is despised more each year by docs and its membership continues to erode.
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:45 AM   #38
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Kids go overseas to study because they can't get in to school in the US, meaning, generally, they weren't as good academically. They often get second rate residencies.
Med school entrance requirements are excessively tight, judging by the smarts of the average practicing physician I've come across.

The key skill set for any doctor is diagnosis. Most docs are seeing far too many patients to do a proper job of diagnosis and prescribing the most effective treatment. In my area of practice, it can take months to gather data and collaborative effort among specialists to arrive at an accurate diagnosis of a problem. That a MD should do this in 10-20 minutes is absolutely ludicrous. Whatever scholastic edge they might have had as an undergraduate student is negated later on by having too many patients to diagnose properly. Since there's no economic downside to inefficiency in the medical profession, inefficiency thrives.

We need to produce more doctors so that more time is available for better diagnosis and treatment. A solid B (3.0 GPA) average as an undergraduate from a good school is plenty good enough for being an MD.
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:32 PM   #39
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You are making the assumption they want to stay in the medical profession. They all have at a minimum undergraduate degrees. They are employable in many areas from business to healthcare.
Ok, an average physician has one skillset in general, medicine, period. Maybe a bit of management from running a business. They are not going to work another job for 50 hours a week to make 80-120k when they were making 300k before. Just not going to happen.

The ones who are at risk of leaving medicine are those who will just retire early.

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Med school entrance requirements are excessively tight, judging by the smarts of the average practicing physician I've come across.

The key skill set for any doctor is diagnosis. Most docs are seeing far too many patients to do a proper job of diagnosis and prescribing the most effective treatment. In my area of practice, it can take months to gather data and collaborative effort among specialists to arrive at an accurate diagnosis of a problem. That a MD should do this in 10-20 minutes is absolutely ludicrous. Whatever scholastic edge they might have had as an undergraduate student is negated later on by having too many patients to diagnose properly. Since there's no economic downside to inefficiency in the medical profession, inefficiency thrives.

We need to produce more doctors so that more time is available for better diagnosis and treatment. A solid B (3.0 GPA) average as an undergraduate from a good school is plenty good enough for being an MD.
Several things...

1) Most doctors diagnose the same things over and over. It because pretty simply to recognize at a certain point. My wife, for example, can diagnose pre-eclampsia with her eyes closed in 15 seconds.

2) More doctors does not mean better results, it simply means more volume to be churned. More importantly, more doctors does not mean more time spent with patient. They can't afford to spend more than 10 minutes in a room because of how they are paid. So if you want them to spend more time, you have to pay them more, which makes healthcare even more expensive, oops.

3) A 3.0GPA for an MD? Holy crap will I not go to that guy. I basically slept through undergrad while running an underground liqour distribution business across state lines and pulled a 3.8 at a top 20 school in a double major. I would have had to been functionally retarded to drop to a 3.0, that is not someone I want with a knife cutting on me... thanks. To sheer volume of knowledge an MD has to walk around with generally makes the vast majority of academic students unable to manage the duties.
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Old 07-03-2012, 03:30 PM   #40
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Listen to rumors much?

A doctorate, assuming you mean a PhD, is vastly different than the training an MD goes through. At U of Michigan, a top engineering program, for example, you need 37 classroom hours (3-4 semesters) and a thesis. You typically get free tuition and a 20K+ stipend. Research on a thesis is a joke compared to clinical hours an MD student works. If you are bright and dedicated, you are out in 4-5 years, compared to typically 8-12 years of horrendous hours for docs.

The AMA doesn't control the amount of docs, the number of facilities known as med schools do. Not very many schools are rushing out to start new med schools due to the expense and time involved. Where do you get this info.

Kids go overseas to study because they can't get in to school in the US, meaning, generally, they weren't as good academically. They often get second rate residencies.

Having parents that are docs doesn't help very much getting into school these day....top grades and MCAT scores, on the other hand, help much more. The only avenue that is still open is underrepresented minorities and even there, they are generally qualified but not to the same level as the top students.
Well, in principle the medical and graduate doctorate programs are quite similar - both start with two years of basic schooling, passage of the first part of the USMLE for med students and qualifying exam for grand students, then two-to-three years of on-the-job training followed by passage of the graduation exam for the med-students and thesis defense for the grad students and then post-graduate training in form of residency for medical students and post-doctoral fellowship for former graduate students.

As far for overseas medical students - one attraction is many of the foreign schools combine undergraduate + medical training so you can start at 16 and be done in 6 years.
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Old 07-03-2012, 03:30 PM
 
Go Back   Corvette Forum > Off Topic > Politics, Religion & Controversy
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