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Old 10-29-2012, 07:21 PM   #121
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I can't imagine you guys (War and VETTRLZ) can't see the value in what this business owner did. She put her well being on the line for her employees in hope that this new administration would make good on their promises. You're right, she should've shot out there and got ahead of the "trend" and laid off her entire staff except her family at the very hint of a downturn in '08. Screw those employees and their well being, after all it's all about surviving and being ahead of the trend!!! Let's fuel that unemployment problem and just take care of our own and forget about the others!! But you guys know for a fact that you would've been giving her a liberal beat down because she was selfish and not looking out for her employees and the good of the country by going down with the ship!!

The only way you have a clue as to what to do in her situation is to have been there yourself under the same circumstances and we know that you haven't.

BTW, the only costs she was able to cut was payroll/benefits, the rest were fixed.

Last edited by Donuts; 10-29-2012 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:25 PM   #122
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The only way you have a clue as to what to do in her situation is to have been there yourself under the same circumstances and we know that you haven't.


i don't have a clue about her situation because i run a successful business
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:37 PM   #123
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no surprise that you would side with loozers.
Have you ever owned a business?
By the way, very few people if any knew what a sub prime loan was until July of 2008, when it was getting media attention. Your friend and fellow lib, Barney Frank announced to the World, nothing to fear, everything is fine with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac....all under control and then boom within months it all started falling apart...

These people may have not made the best decision but they trusted in our leaders, little did they know. Selling off assets like equipment, vehicles etc. doesn't net much, not near enough to forestall what many business people experienced, especially in construction related industry.

In your world any business that fails is the owners fault, outside influences have nothing to do with it. Pathetic, but typical from you.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:38 PM   #124
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I haven't. But I have a business degree and have been employed in businesses that have done a good job of reading economic changes and adjusted well. For one of them, that meant laying off about 1/3 of the workforce and getting their expenses in line, and doing it fast.

I'm not defending Obama by any means. He absolutely made it worse. But a company that responds to an economic tidal wave with a tiny 5 employee cut, no changes to benefit expenses, and very slow and weak response thereafter is going to lose in these conditions. She may also not be telling the entire story and may have been leveraged to the hilt for all we know.

Bottom line, the survival of her business is still her responsibility, good times or bad. I agree that Obama needs to go, but she needs to take some responsibility for her own.
Who made the personal sacrifice?? The guy making the layoff decisions?? I bet his/her salary wasn't fazed, actually, I bet he/she got a bonus!! This is the part that you guys don't get about this lady and millions of other small business owners, they are personally invested in their employees unlike any other organization in this country. That's the problem with folk who have business degrees, they don't understand what happens when a business owner puts all they have on the line to start and sustain a dream. It's so easy to "manage" a crisis when someone else is paying the bills and all you have to do is clock in and clock out. Try being the HR director, Benefits administrator, CFO, Marketing director and CEO then get back to me.

There's a whole dimension out there that can't be taught in business school and this is one of them.

Last edited by Donuts; 10-29-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:38 PM   #125
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It's very relevant. If a person hasn't owned and operated a business with 32 or more employees for a long period of time they can't possibly understand or see accurately enough to say that a business failure was from poor management.

Just like the village idiot expressed earlier "there's not much overhead in plumbing" He hasn't operated a plumbing business more or less owned one or that thought wouldn't have ever passed through his head..

Her numbers were compiled over a weekend but the actual unraveling of her business took years and if you're a business owner that also operates the business on a daily basis you understand how this happens and it has happened to the best and brightest of business owners.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:40 PM   #126
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What retail?

Again I see you are skirting the real facts behind any potential growth versus a plumbing business thatmay have faced a shrinking market.

That is the point.
Plumbers face a shrinking market? When did everyone stop using plumbing? News to me.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:41 PM   #127
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i don't have a clue about her situation because i run a successful business
I'm genuinely interested in what you do and how many you employ, please share.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:48 PM   #128
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I'm genuinely interested in what you do and how many you employ, please share.

in your dreams
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:03 PM   #129
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Plumbers face a shrinking market? When did everyone stop using plumbing? News to me.
When they stopped buying new houses. Pay attention to what has happened over the last few years.

Oh, the dems stopped using plumbing in their occupy camps, too. Filthy animals!
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:09 PM   #130
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The truth is, she is right that Obama did nothing to improve the economy and only made it worse. I have no argument with that.

But others such as war are right in pointing out that she didn't downsize her business fast enough. She should have immediately cut her business in half, and stopped benefits the first year.

It is 20/20 hindsight, but I have to agree with war on this. In a downsizing economy where the source of her income was the very housing market that was at the core of the economic crash, she should have cut expenses way ahead of the the trend. The survivors did that.


Our businesses are directly tied to the construction industry. We made the cuts. We made 'em deep enough, quick enough. We closed one store. We cut staff from sixteen to six. We survived,...so far. See post 52. It is now at the nightmare stage. October begins our "slow time",...ha!, Can it get worse, you bet.

Let me tell some folks here that keeping a business afloat during times like these bring forth courage, compassion, and character. Most of our base is gone,...gone,...mowing grass, cleaning pools, anything to put food on the table. The fallout is far and wide.

Sit in my chair, walk in my shoes, then judge me and my effort,...so far...
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:14 PM   #131
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When they stopped buying new houses. Pay attention to what has happened over the last few years.

Oh, the dems stopped using plumbing in their occupy camps, too. Filthy animals!
I didn't realize that they way a plumber can make money is on people who buy new houses. One of my best friends works for a large local plumbing company. He says his guys are always busy. Look, I'm not saying that times aren't rough. They clearly are. Businesses are struggling. I'm just saying that there is something to be said of hulkdaddys theory that perhaps their demise was due to the lack of necessary changes. Every business has to be able and willing to change and adapt.

None of us here are in their books, we weren't in their manager meetings we can't see their accounts. It's pure speculation as to the details.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:11 PM   #132
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Where's her husband?






Another Linda Hogan?
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:18 PM   #133
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laid off her entire staff except her family
most of these small companies are family only staff.

And I've seen plenty of small companies overpay themselves/family members, and not know why they are losing money, and raise their prices beyond local market prices to compensate.


and then they self-destruct.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:23 PM   #134
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most of these small companies are family only staff.

And I've seen plenty of small companies overpay themselves/family members, and not know why they are losing money, and raise their prices beyond local market prices to compensate.


and then they self-destruct.
Name 1.

You are a liar. You continually fabricate rubbish and post it as your life experience.
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:47 PM   #135
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most of these small companies are family only staff.

And I've seen plenty of small companies overpay themselves/family members, and not know why they are losing money, and raise their prices beyond local market prices to compensate.


and then they self-destruct.
Yes,and I've worked for some of them. When an employer tells you at your interview that "we are like a big family here", run away.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:02 AM   #136
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It's no surprise to hear the local libtards ******* small business.. they're just following their leader..
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:37 AM   #137
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i don't have a clue about her situation because i run a successful business
I highly doubt you built that.
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:00 AM   #138
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And so the nightmare continues...

Sad...
Whine, whine, whine!

My nephew is in the pluming business and he is doing very well. Just bought two new vans and equipped them with pluming materials and parts. Hired one licensed plumber and two apprentices. Now has 6 people on his payroll. And, get this! He lives in Arvada, Colorado a suburb of Denver.

Blaming someone because you cannot manage your own business is a joke. Seems to me they tried to keep their business going to employing their own kids. Bad idea. Fire the kids and let her husband go back to what plumbers do. Toilets, baths, and showers are always in demand. I think this chick needs to reexamine their business model. Maybe move to the east coast. There are going to be a lot of plumbing jobs there. JM2CW.

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Old 10-30-2012, 03:55 AM   #139
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The bottom line is no one has a crystal ball to determine what the future is. In August of 2006, we vacationed in AZ, developments were being shut down, home construction ground to a halt, contractors were closing their doors, new malls were being boarded up....meantime in WA, our business was booming and I felt bad for AZ, never thinking it would impact us. I had never heard of sub-prime mortgages as we were a custom home builder....until July of 2008, when it was on the news.

Then all of a sudden in early 09, customers who we had been working with could not sell their homes, values in WA were falling, banks were tightening up their lending and projects were being cancelled...it had nothing to do with how big or small you were or how you planned ahead. We did everything we could to stay afloat, ride it out but if there is no income....we walked, said enough and salvaged what we could of our lives.

I know several business owners with storefronts in the retail business
that have shut their doors in the past 6 months. People I still keep in contact with in the Construction industry including vendors and subs, are still devastated by this.
First off, I am truely sorry of your losses both personal and business. We deserve as hard working Americans the protection, read, checks and balances, from our government top to bottom. What you and many of us became involved in was an unwilling conspirator that happened "in part" due to corruption at the top. We deserve a government that protects us from politicians that craft risky laws and or bills that have been known to create financial mayhem in the markets. The opposite was allowed to happen.
We sign on the dotted line because we believe its in our best interest while believing our federal government has our backs. We sign on the dotted line for debt that is aquirred to gain access to equipment, vehicles, and all the other "must haves" to succeed as a business. Your intentions were just and legal. You were able to contribute to an economy that welcomed your business on many levels including the local, state, and federal givernments. By 05 the die was cast beyond the point of no return. We had big investors in the loop with new market instruments (CDOs and derivitives) waging huge bets against our mortgage industry staying solvent... and all of it made legal by our government. I was pretty ignorant about it all in 05 and I still new enough and realized it was "time" to sell the house, take the bubble equity, and cut my mortgage debt to zero. The wife would not hear it, and she is a realtor... figures... eh?

Having said that does not excuse a person from paying their debts.

The real debt owed in terms of unethical behavior during the run up will never be repaid, it can't, because we all pay for the greed that drives the corruption infested governments of the world. So, you say we can't predict the future... I am not so sure on that one... you only have to look at history to realize they just played a sophisticated great depression play on the world. Those worthless mortgage backed securities were sold to foreign investors, governments, and pension funds all over the world. Who's idea was that? Who set it all up? Who would benefit when the dust cleared? Some people call what happened the "harvesting of America". If you want to know the future, just look to the past and understand how these phycopaths think. Then, protect yourself... you can vote and hopes it makes a difference to. Then, set up your world to not expose yourself anymore than nessasary just in case the fraudsters get the laws and policies they want that benefits them for the next boom and bust cycle. Sure, they do humane things to... it bolsters their image for those that don't know who their really dealing with.

Like Micheal Douglas said in the last Wall Street movie as he spoke to an auditorium full of business students that came to hear what an ex con had to say... Gordon Geco finished with... "greed is now legal".
It was a fictional movie... right? No similarities with our prolonged period of economic slumber... right?

Is America still a great country? Sure it is... just make sure you don't make decisions based on what the government leads you to believe about how its going to be. Notice the gridlock in DC for it is the ultimate tug of war between waring ideologies... and neither one of them resembles our founding fathers vision for what this country was intended to be.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:02 AM   #140
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I can't imagine you guys (War and VETTRLZ) can't see the value in what this business owner did. She put her well being on the line for her employees in hope that this new administration would make good on their promises. You're right, she should've shot out there and got ahead of the "trend" and laid off her entire staff except her family at the very hint of a downturn in '08. Screw those employees and their well being, after all it's all about surviving and being ahead of the trend!!! Let's fuel that unemployment problem and just take care of our own and forget about the others!! But you guys know for a fact that you would've been giving her a liberal beat down because she was selfish and not looking out for her employees and the good of the country by going down with the ship!!

The only way you have a clue as to what to do in her situation is to have been there yourself under the same circumstances and we know that you haven't.
Eh... You and I can disagree on this, but you're wrong to imply I'm a liberal because I understand that for a business to survive, sometimes it has to cut costs very deeply. I'm very conservative, and I understand that a business is not a charity. I didn't like being one of those laid-off, but I understood. It sucked, but I moved on and made the best of it.

She may have allowed her emotions to get the best of her and held too many people for too long. In the end, they are unemployed, and she is still broke. And yes, absolutely, her first duty was to her family. If she let an emotional attachment to her employees drag everything down to failure, then how does that help anyone?

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BTW, the only costs she was able to cut was payroll/benefits, the rest were fixed.
WELL YEAH... That's kind of the point. That's what we're saying. The variable costs are all you can quickly adjust. If she had downsized quicker, she may have had a chance. Look, I'm not arguing with you that Obama hasn't made things worse. I hate the POS. If I had my way, the minute the crisis hit I would have dropped taxes and lifted as much burden off of the economy as possible in as many ways as possible.

Obama absolutely put more people in a bad position for too long, and I do feel for this lady and everyone like her. But business is what it is. The math is what it is. It's revenue vs expenses. Period. You can be all emotional about it, but the math doesn't change and you'll be just as broke twice as fast if you don't do what is necessary to cut to the core and survive.
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