Oil catch can & clean side oil/airseparator tech discussion.
08-27-2015, 12:36 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Oil catch can & clean side oil/airseparator tech discussion.
AT THE BOTTOM BELOW ARE PICTURES OF OUR CATCH CANS. SINGLE CHECK, DUAL CHECK, CLEAN SIDE SEPARATOR AND MONSTER II CATCHCAN
Hi All,
Have been in several threads providing all the technical information including pictures, video, dyno graphs, etc. to educate all on properly caring for these new GDI engines and what happens if not cared for properly, and a large part of this is matching the correct air/oil separating system for your vehicle. Here we will list what you need for your model and options as a guide to help all to not purchase the wrong system. It is important to understand a model of catchcan that may have worked well with a port injection engine, will NOT be sufficient for a GDI engine as there is no longer fuel spraying on the back sides of the valves to keep them cool and deposit free like port injection did as shown here:
This constant shower of detergent fuel has kept intake valves deposit free for the past 20-25 years and the premature wearing of valve guides had gone the way of the dinosaur (so we thought) unlike the earlier carbureted engines had where at 40-50k miles a rebuild was needed (at least a valve job). Now that no fuel touches these valves with GDI:
GDI engines have brought this back with a vengeance, and several times the severity of carbureted engines as they still had some fuel passing the valves to help keep deposits at a minimum. You can also see that all in tank fuel additives are now a pure waste of $ as they cannot do anything to help even the fuel injectors as they now operate at 2000 plus PSI and have little chance of building deposits where these additives did help post injection engines.
Here is an example of a port injection 3.6L GM at 140k miles:
Now the same engine in GDI (begining 2008 GM went to GDI with the 3.6) at 30k miles:
And what happens when a large chunk of these deposits breaks loose after a solvent based upper induction cleaning, or just breaks off on it's own and gets trapped between the valve and seat allowing the iston to make contact and bend the valve:
Look closely at where that chunk broke loose on the left portion of the stem. The engine was run with the bent valve for some time before the dealer tore it down to find the problem. Also note how these deposits have restricted the incoming air flow and causes uneven air distribution when the fuel injectors are still adding the equal amounts of fuel to each cylinder. Some cylinders will run leaner than others, and the carefully designed shape of the valves and ports is now rendered useless.
Below is a long term test where the owner documented the power loss as the deposits build on the same dyno, at the same time of year attempting to keep all condition's as duplicatable as possible. Also note the car had app 30k miles on before the first dyno, and then a crushed walnut shell media blasting service was performed and look at that last run after the cleaning:
Also, these hard abrasive particles are drawn up into the valve guides with every cycle and are wearing the guide out of spec by as little as 25-30k miles. This needs to be addressed as soon as you take delivery of the car to prevent any of this from happening. And this video of a new LT1 C7 at 5500 miles shows, wear has already begun to the guides:
So, preventing this is not difficult if done from the start.
First will be for the LT4 C7 Z06.
You will need this system, and make sure to specify the year/make/model/engine/and engine mods when ordering so there is no confusion.
http://www.coloradospeed.com/oil-pum...6-p-37974.html
The LT4 does NOT need the cleanside separator unless you are tracking the car and need that added protection for the dry-sump cleanside. The main reason the LT4 does not need the cleanside and the LT1 does is the LT4 will provide constant crankcase evacuation suction/vacuum as this is provided just up stream of the SC rotors so no matter what operating level, a roots type blower is always providing this suction as it does not provide boost until after the blower and then it is directly into the intake ports. So there is little chance of pressure building to the point of pushing oil laden vapors back through the cleanside and into the main intake air box assy like is seen in the LT1 versions, both dry and wet sump.
If you have a LT1, then as it is naturallu aspirated, any time you accelerate, the intake manifold vacuum drops to zero and not evacuation takes place, so the crankcase will build pressure and it will vent backwards out the cleanside inlet and into your main intake air box assy and ingest via this path.
So the cleanside is needed in addition to the dual valve main separator:
http://www.coloradospeed.com/oil-pum...8-p-28561.html
Why not defeat/delete the PCV system like some are selling that routes both the clean and dirty sides into a large tank and vent through breathers or open hoses hanging near the ground? Several reasons.
First would be the obvious, it will void your warranty in every case due to this will result in engine damage and premature wear of all internal engine parts from the damaging compounds now left to accumulate in the crankcase as evacuation has been defeated and these compounds are no longer removed.
Will not be legal on the street in any State, and will also fail emissions inspections.
What people need to realize is the PCV system provides several critical functions and only one is emissions related. When the Federal Gov mandated all cars and light trucks have CV systems in the mid 1960's, it was intended to reduce pollution, but what the automakers soon found was the engines that rarely lasted more that 50-60k miles before being entirely worn and in need of a total rebuild, were now lasting 100-150k plus miles and longer. Engineers soon found that when the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) systems were in use, they were evacuating much more than just the oil mist/vapor. They also were constantly removing the water, unburnt fuel, sulfuric acid, abrasive soot and carbon particles, etc. that were previously left in the crankcase to contaminate the engine oil and further attack and corrode internal parts and flushing them with the filtered clean air entering the opposite bank as the foul vapors were evacuated from (evacuation is NOT venting. Venting can only bring a small fraction of these compounds out with pressure). So, defeating your PCV systems functions by using anything vented will result in engine damage and wear over time period. No possible way it cannot unless you would change oil after every outing, and that is impractical and costly.
Then, if it is a system with 2 hoses hanging down, you must understand how the Venturi Effect works. As air flows past an open hose or tube, it creates suction (this is the Venturi effect). But, since this is never equal, one hose will always become the stringer of the two with suction, and the opposite hose will turn into a vacuum cleaner so to speak and draw in dust/dirt/sand/water and other road debris (just look at how your engine bay gets covered in dust and sand in short order even driving on clean paved roads only) and this can enter the engine causing damage. Then we have to look at the fact that you have now bypassed the MAF sensor, and the factory tune is not going to be commanding fuel trims accurately, and you are also replying on pressure to first build instead of pulling vacuum at all times like the proper system will, so allowing any pressure to build to the point of venting out hoses or breathers will cause among many things, ring flutter. This over time results in "divots" of wear in the cylinder walls as well as on the rings themselves so they eventually do not, and cannot seal properly allowing even more blow-by.
So, for now I'll stop here and open this for questions. Do NOT be afraid to ask questions, your new Stingray is a sizable investment, and the engine is different than any of the previous port injection offerings, and these are things you need to be aware of to get the most with the least issues as far as engine related.
Jason
Hi All,
Have been in several threads providing all the technical information including pictures, video, dyno graphs, etc. to educate all on properly caring for these new GDI engines and what happens if not cared for properly, and a large part of this is matching the correct air/oil separating system for your vehicle. Here we will list what you need for your model and options as a guide to help all to not purchase the wrong system. It is important to understand a model of catchcan that may have worked well with a port injection engine, will NOT be sufficient for a GDI engine as there is no longer fuel spraying on the back sides of the valves to keep them cool and deposit free like port injection did as shown here:
This constant shower of detergent fuel has kept intake valves deposit free for the past 20-25 years and the premature wearing of valve guides had gone the way of the dinosaur (so we thought) unlike the earlier carbureted engines had where at 40-50k miles a rebuild was needed (at least a valve job). Now that no fuel touches these valves with GDI:
GDI engines have brought this back with a vengeance, and several times the severity of carbureted engines as they still had some fuel passing the valves to help keep deposits at a minimum. You can also see that all in tank fuel additives are now a pure waste of $ as they cannot do anything to help even the fuel injectors as they now operate at 2000 plus PSI and have little chance of building deposits where these additives did help post injection engines.
Here is an example of a port injection 3.6L GM at 140k miles:
Now the same engine in GDI (begining 2008 GM went to GDI with the 3.6) at 30k miles:
And what happens when a large chunk of these deposits breaks loose after a solvent based upper induction cleaning, or just breaks off on it's own and gets trapped between the valve and seat allowing the iston to make contact and bend the valve:
Look closely at where that chunk broke loose on the left portion of the stem. The engine was run with the bent valve for some time before the dealer tore it down to find the problem. Also note how these deposits have restricted the incoming air flow and causes uneven air distribution when the fuel injectors are still adding the equal amounts of fuel to each cylinder. Some cylinders will run leaner than others, and the carefully designed shape of the valves and ports is now rendered useless.
Below is a long term test where the owner documented the power loss as the deposits build on the same dyno, at the same time of year attempting to keep all condition's as duplicatable as possible. Also note the car had app 30k miles on before the first dyno, and then a crushed walnut shell media blasting service was performed and look at that last run after the cleaning:
Also, these hard abrasive particles are drawn up into the valve guides with every cycle and are wearing the guide out of spec by as little as 25-30k miles. This needs to be addressed as soon as you take delivery of the car to prevent any of this from happening. And this video of a new LT1 C7 at 5500 miles shows, wear has already begun to the guides:
So, preventing this is not difficult if done from the start.
First will be for the LT4 C7 Z06.
You will need this system, and make sure to specify the year/make/model/engine/and engine mods when ordering so there is no confusion.
http://www.coloradospeed.com/oil-pum...6-p-37974.html
The LT4 does NOT need the cleanside separator unless you are tracking the car and need that added protection for the dry-sump cleanside. The main reason the LT4 does not need the cleanside and the LT1 does is the LT4 will provide constant crankcase evacuation suction/vacuum as this is provided just up stream of the SC rotors so no matter what operating level, a roots type blower is always providing this suction as it does not provide boost until after the blower and then it is directly into the intake ports. So there is little chance of pressure building to the point of pushing oil laden vapors back through the cleanside and into the main intake air box assy like is seen in the LT1 versions, both dry and wet sump.
If you have a LT1, then as it is naturallu aspirated, any time you accelerate, the intake manifold vacuum drops to zero and not evacuation takes place, so the crankcase will build pressure and it will vent backwards out the cleanside inlet and into your main intake air box assy and ingest via this path.
So the cleanside is needed in addition to the dual valve main separator:
http://www.coloradospeed.com/oil-pum...8-p-28561.html
Why not defeat/delete the PCV system like some are selling that routes both the clean and dirty sides into a large tank and vent through breathers or open hoses hanging near the ground? Several reasons.
First would be the obvious, it will void your warranty in every case due to this will result in engine damage and premature wear of all internal engine parts from the damaging compounds now left to accumulate in the crankcase as evacuation has been defeated and these compounds are no longer removed.
Will not be legal on the street in any State, and will also fail emissions inspections.
What people need to realize is the PCV system provides several critical functions and only one is emissions related. When the Federal Gov mandated all cars and light trucks have CV systems in the mid 1960's, it was intended to reduce pollution, but what the automakers soon found was the engines that rarely lasted more that 50-60k miles before being entirely worn and in need of a total rebuild, were now lasting 100-150k plus miles and longer. Engineers soon found that when the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) systems were in use, they were evacuating much more than just the oil mist/vapor. They also were constantly removing the water, unburnt fuel, sulfuric acid, abrasive soot and carbon particles, etc. that were previously left in the crankcase to contaminate the engine oil and further attack and corrode internal parts and flushing them with the filtered clean air entering the opposite bank as the foul vapors were evacuated from (evacuation is NOT venting. Venting can only bring a small fraction of these compounds out with pressure). So, defeating your PCV systems functions by using anything vented will result in engine damage and wear over time period. No possible way it cannot unless you would change oil after every outing, and that is impractical and costly.
Then, if it is a system with 2 hoses hanging down, you must understand how the Venturi Effect works. As air flows past an open hose or tube, it creates suction (this is the Venturi effect). But, since this is never equal, one hose will always become the stringer of the two with suction, and the opposite hose will turn into a vacuum cleaner so to speak and draw in dust/dirt/sand/water and other road debris (just look at how your engine bay gets covered in dust and sand in short order even driving on clean paved roads only) and this can enter the engine causing damage. Then we have to look at the fact that you have now bypassed the MAF sensor, and the factory tune is not going to be commanding fuel trims accurately, and you are also replying on pressure to first build instead of pulling vacuum at all times like the proper system will, so allowing any pressure to build to the point of venting out hoses or breathers will cause among many things, ring flutter. This over time results in "divots" of wear in the cylinder walls as well as on the rings themselves so they eventually do not, and cannot seal properly allowing even more blow-by.
So, for now I'll stop here and open this for questions. Do NOT be afraid to ask questions, your new Stingray is a sizable investment, and the engine is different than any of the previous port injection offerings, and these are things you need to be aware of to get the most with the least issues as far as engine related.
Jason
Last edited by COSPEED; 09-03-2015 at 06:07 PM.
08-27-2015, 04:28 PM
#3
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
08-27-2015, 05:03 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Next I will go into the people modding with a centrifugal super charger (A&A, ECS, ProCharger, etc.) and turbo charged and how to properly set up and choose for those applications.
08-27-2015, 05:08 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
Yeah....^^^.... is there a schematic for the connections on the Z06?
08-27-2015, 06:01 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
08-27-2015, 07:04 PM
#10
A very clear DIY guide to installing the can on the C7Z with pictures would be helpful. I am putting mine in this weekend, but usually have a nice guide to follow for a part like this!
08-27-2015, 10:44 PM
#11
Racer
08-28-2015, 12:49 PM
#12
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Hi All,
Yes, I will post an installation guide here to help all.
On the Elite E2-X and E2-Ultra, we expect to see those released any day now. The current Colorado Speed systems may look different, but are also 95-98% effective and do a great job. Some should be posting pictures soon of their own installs.
So watch for instructions soon.
And any reading these posts/threads, ask any questions on any type of solution being offered from any brand. We have purchased most brands (many are the same units from same manufacturer, just different logo on them) and tested them, them dissected them to see just why they vary so much in actual effectiveness so with basic understanding of flow dynamics and a few principals such as the Venturi effect and Bernoulli effect it is nit hard to see why the vast majority allow more to pass through than they capture, and then the vented tanks you really must understand what happens to your engine when you defeat the PCV systems functions.
Yes, I will post an installation guide here to help all.
On the Elite E2-X and E2-Ultra, we expect to see those released any day now. The current Colorado Speed systems may look different, but are also 95-98% effective and do a great job. Some should be posting pictures soon of their own installs.
So watch for instructions soon.
And any reading these posts/threads, ask any questions on any type of solution being offered from any brand. We have purchased most brands (many are the same units from same manufacturer, just different logo on them) and tested them, them dissected them to see just why they vary so much in actual effectiveness so with basic understanding of flow dynamics and a few principals such as the Venturi effect and Bernoulli effect it is nit hard to see why the vast majority allow more to pass through than they capture, and then the vented tanks you really must understand what happens to your engine when you defeat the PCV systems functions.
08-28-2015, 04:06 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
We are close, here's a picture of the new Catch Can. The kits will be listed on our website next week.
Thank you,
Steve
Elite Engineering
www.EliteEngineeringUSA.com
08-29-2015, 01:07 AM
#15
Instructor
I am all for it and ready to buy. But, and this is a big one for me. I will at the least have to see pictures and get an idea of what this thing looks like and how it installs before I pump out $474 for a dual system on my Z06. I have the dual system from elite on my ZR1 and I am happy with it. I like catch cans....again, I simply have to see whats going on with this system before I close my eyes and hit order...then wait and lay eyes on it for the first time when the box shows up.
I am out until I see pictures and a few detailed installed pics. Sorry.
I am out until I see pictures and a few detailed installed pics. Sorry.
08-29-2015, 10:42 AM
#16
St. Jude Partner since 89
I am super interested in getting one of these also and ready to buy but want to see installation instructions first. I thought it was previously assumed (before any kits were available and why there were no kits available) that the supercharger would have to be removed in order to access the dirty side connection which is underneath it.
08-29-2015, 10:58 AM
#17
Le Mans Master
I am super interested in getting one of these also and ready to buy but want to see installation instructions first. I thought it was previously assumed (before any kits were available and why there were no kits available) that the supercharger would have to be removed in order to access the dirty side connection which is underneath it.
Do not remove the SC. See post below. See the tube inside the butterfly valve? Remove butterfly and you can get the tube plug into it.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1590297015
08-29-2015, 02:00 PM
#18
Racer
We are close, here's a picture of the new Catch Can. The kits will be listed on our website next week.
Thank you,
Steve
Elite Engineering
www.EliteEngineeringUSA.com
Thank you,
Steve
Elite Engineering
www.EliteEngineeringUSA.com
08-29-2015, 02:02 PM
#19
Racer
Has anyone considered using the spray foam insulation in the tube? The stuff expands and hardens perfectly. Its air/water tight as well. Although it would cause issues if someone wanted to remove the can and go back to stock.
08-31-2015, 12:25 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I will try later today to post up instructions for both.