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OK, I want to get ya'lls thoughts on this. I know what I think, what do ya'll think.
I think we all pretty much agree that we can buy a completed car for less money than it would cost to buy a project and compete the restoration.
That is usually the case. Yes, exceptions do occur, but generally that is a true statement.
Now, if we can buy a completed car for X amount of dollars, we "should" be able to buy a project car for X amount of dollars MINUS the cost to restore the car to the same level of a completed car.
I am not talking about buying a project car, and sending it to a shop to get completed. I am talking about a project car where the buyer does most / all of the work.
Makes sense, right.
Unfortunately, not much about this hobby makes sense.
I often wonder where project car sellers get their prices.
Perhaps they paid too much, or perhaps they have too much invested.
It seems to me that sellers of completed cars are generally more willing to accept a loss on a car than sellers of project cars.
An example (the cars are made up to protect the "whatever").
Lets say the completed car is a very nice driver quality (not quite top flight, but could be gotten the car to that level fairly easily).
Lets say the project car is a running and driving car that needs paint, interior, engine and trans cleaned up (but not rebuilt), and chassis cleaned up. All of the same parts that are on the completed car are also on the project car.
A nice driver quality (as described above) 1959 Corvette, 230hp, 4 speed, posi rear end, and red with black interior. Price is $65K.
The same car, as a project car (as described above) 1959 Corvette, 230hp, 4 speed, posi rear end, and red with black interior. Price is $45K.
The cost to get the project car to the level of the completed car SHOULD BE no more than $20K, right?
Doing the work yourself (or lets say most of the work except for paint and body), can anyone reasonably take the project car to a nice quality driver car for $20K?
Here are the things that you have to do to the project (assign your own cost to each item)
1. Clean and paint the chassis and suspension parts, replace soft parts.
2. Clean and paint engine and transmission, replace soft parts.
5. Prep body and paint body exterior and interior. Lets say this car has a no hit body and is already painted red, but needs a re-paint to get it to the next level.
Can items 1 - 5 be done for $20K, and completed to a nice driver car level for 20K?
OK, I want to get ya'lls thoughts on this. I know what I think, what do ya'll think.
I think we all pretty much agree that we can buy a completed car for less money than it would cost to buy a project and compete the restoration.
That is usually the case. Yes, exceptions do occur, but generally that is a true statement.
Now, if we can buy a completed car for X amount of dollars, we "should" be able to buy a project car for X amount of dollars MINUS the cost to restore the car to the same level of a completed car.
I am not talking about buying a project car, and sending it to a shop to get completed. I am talking about a project car where the buyer does most / all of the work.
Makes sense, right.
Unfortunately, not much about this hobby makes sense.
I often wonder where project car sellers get their prices.
Perhaps they paid too much, or perhaps they have too much invested.
It seems to me that sellers of completed cars are generally more willing to accept a loss on a car than sellers of project cars.
An example (the cars are made up to protect the "whatever").
Lets say the completed car is a very nice driver quality (not quite top flight, but could be gotten the car to that level fairly easily).
Lets say the project car is a running and driving car that needs paint, interior, engine and trans cleaned up (but not rebuilt), and chassis cleaned up. All of the same parts that are on the completed car are also on the project car.
A nice driver quality (as described above) 1959 Corvette, 230hp, 4 speed, posi rear end, and red with black interior. Price is $65K.
The same car, as a project car (as described above) 1959 Corvette, 230hp, 4 speed, posi rear end, and red with black interior. Price is $45K.
The cost to get the project car to the level of the completed car SHOULD BE no more than $20K, right?
Doing the work yourself (or lets say most of the work except for paint and body), can anyone reasonably take the project car to a nice quality driver car for $20K?
Here are the things that you have to do to the project (assign your own cost to each item)
1. Clean and paint the chassis and suspension parts, replace soft parts.
2. Clean and paint engine and transmission, replace soft parts.
5. Prep body and paint body exterior and interior. Lets say this car has a no hit body and is already painted red, but needs a re-paint to get it to the next level.
Can items 1 - 5 be done for $20K, and completed to a nice driver car level for 20K?
Thoughts?
I
am
not
sure.
20K maybe depends upon the extent and what is the definition between a nice driver and a project car??? A lot of have been there and done it. Pricing of items can be all over the place depending upon condition and missing parts. I for one will probably not take on another project/basket case unless I had all of the pieces and complete the work myself in a timely manner. That being said spending 65k nice driver sounds temping but would rather find a deal and work on it myself. Gives me more options on what I want to do. Self gratification!
Plus give me a reason to go to a swap meet occasionally.
Driver is what it says, you can drive and enjoy as is.... A project turns into a perfect pristine car because of project creeeeeep! Fix this and it makes that look bad so fix that and so on and so on! Very difficult to make a driver out of a project car! Or they remain projects forever!! Chip
I think potential and real buyers of project cars always way underestimate the cost of restoration to the desired level of finished product. Most of the buyers have never done a total restoration and throw numbers at the big stuff, paint, drivetrain, chrome, interior, etc. But, in general, it is all of the little stuff and the unknowns that generally double or triple the restoration cost, ultimately making the economics go upside down, but by then it is too late to turn back. You are going to lose money, the question is when, now, or later.
The market drives the actual price that people pay for project cars. People can ask any price, but the market and supply and demand determine the selling price. Just look at what 63 SWC coupe projects sell for these days. Crazy prices in my opinion for some real piles of junk, but people think they can turn a $50k pile of junk into a $100k car for less than the $50 k difference, when it reality, it is probably going to take way more than that.
That's what makes the world go round, and we all live and learn as we make the journey!!
Probably the biggest factor and cost in restoring a car labor. That will cost you more then the parts it takes to complete the build of a project car. Except if you do the work your self and you do not count your time as a cost to the build. Most of us who restore or rebuild Corvettes do it for our self or do it for the love of the car. If you tacked on say $50.00 per hour labor on the price of building a car (depending on how bad it was to start out with) you would be up side down real fast on the cars price. So it kind of depends on the condition of the project and what all it needs and if the parts it need can be found. Hard to set a price on a car project or not. It is worth what the buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is welling to except. That what any car is worth project or not.
I showed a 66 barn find vette at the MCACN show. Dudes were all over the car with offers to buy it. At the same show was a nice driver 64 for sale and the guy said no one was showing any interest.
You'd have purchase price of the driver into the barn find just to get it running.
That is the allure of a fixer-upper, guys think they could afford that car, but not the nice one right next to it.
Last edited by Donny Brass; 11-30-2016 at 09:00 PM.
Someone once said - correctly- many project car buyers aren't buying a vehicle at all, they're stretching to the limit to buy a "dream." The higher the price of a decent driver, the more unrealistically high the price goes of the heavy project car.
I showed a 66 barn find vette at the MCACN show. Dudes were all over the car with offers to buy it. At the same show was a nice driver 64 for sale and the guy said no one was showing any interest.
You'd have purchase price of the driver into the barn find just to get it running.
That is the allure of a fixer-upper, guys think they could afford that car, but not the nice one right next to it.
NOW you tell me! Shoot Donny, I probably could have sold my car right after I bought it and made some quick cash.
All I have now is a finished restoration. (I know, they're never REALLY done)
OT, I think most of the comments made are spot on. Ask me how I know.
I could not wrap my head around the whole "I wanna by your barn find, and I don't mind that everytime you slam the door the rust pile underneath gets bigger."
Then it occurred to me, if you show up with a ne girlfriend and she is hot, the guy kinda stay away and show respect. However, if you show up with a really slutty girl, all the dudes come around figuring they have a shot at her.
The barn find is just a slutty girlfriend and everyone thinks they have a shot at fixing it up.
I could not wrap my head around the whole "I wanna by your barn find, and I don't mind that everytime you slam the door the rust pile underneath gets bigger."
Then it occurred to me, if you show up with a ne girlfriend and she is hot, the guy kinda stay away and show respect. However, if you show up with a really slutty girl, all the dudes come around figuring they have a shot at her.
The barn find is just a slutty girlfriend and everyone thinks they have a shot at fixing it up.
Well, I am the guy, bought a barn find, chased it for 15 years to convince the guy to sell it to me. Now I spend time gathering the parts, one piece at a time as life and money allow. It will get done and I will be patient. Sad part is I bought when they were extremely high, and the market crashed the very next year. If I had waited I could have bought a nice daily driver for the same price but you do the best you can each day and move on. I actually enjoy the restoration work maybe that makes me an odd ball but I can live with that. There seem to be many in the same boat. If I could just stay with one plan it would be easier! It will be worth more than I have in it when I am done but that is only if I count zero payment for my time. But it is mine!
I showed a 66 barn find vette at the MCACN show. Dudes were all over the car with offers to buy it. At the same show was a nice driver 64 for sale and the guy said no one was showing any interest.
You'd have purchase price of the driver into the barn find just to get it running.
That is the allure of a fixer-upper, guys think they could afford that car, but not the nice one right next to it.
That pretty much covers the topic IMO. Watch enough Garage Squad and Overhaulin' and you'll see all the well-meaning, but, mis-guided owners that bought a car 'on the cheap' to fix it up and wind up in over their head in the first few months...doing the work themselves.
The next 'phase' is for the naive owner to cart the car around to several 'restoration' shops that do some shoddy work, keep the car for 4 years and charge the owner out the azz. Watch some Fantomworks and you'll see some REALLY dumb owners that got ripped off not once, but 3 and 4 times before hiring a pro.
And often the frustrated owner puts the car on eBay or craiglists with a few more parts bought, some crap repairs that need corrected, "....and the beat goes on".
As to this last phase (and staying on topic); the seller thinks he has actually added some value with his bad repro parts and sorry fixes and bumps the price up and fills the ad with, "....its all there", "....it just needs....", "....new parts in boxes", and, other such sad drivel...
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 12-01-2016 at 07:13 AM.
Well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, as mine sits now: $7,000 to $8,000 spent,
And that includes the purchase price of the car.
OK, now you are teasing us. You must have got the deal of a lifetime to have a 67 coupe at this stage for $8K. You have got to post a picture of what it looked like when you started!
There is simply no way to do this hobby on the cheap. At least to do it right.
There are alway a bunch of these project cars floating around. You want to make sure the car starts and drives. Then just drive it and have fun. When you get tired of it sell it. Just don't put real money into it.
My standard budget recommendation is you will spend at least 4 times what you anticipated. It will also take you 2 to 3 times longer than you anticipated.
Frist of all the term "barn find" got twisted up over the last few years. It started out as a very nice original car that was in near perfect shape was put away for what ever reason and 30 years later it is found and is bought. Never to be restored just left in original condition. Now it's any pc of junk that someone put in a garage last week is now a "barn find".
"Project cars" I could not have bought my first corvette without buying a project, you spread the money out over years. I learned how to work on them, bought usable parts (not perfect) and there are lots of those parts out there cheep. So the same is true today, a young guy today with the will to work and learn can build a car for little money over a period of time. The problem is we are in a quick satisfy world. It needs to be perfect and needs to be done today!$$$$$$$$
Last edited by 65 Pro Vette; 12-01-2016 at 07:30 AM.
I would never buy a completed car because the joy is the restoration process. I do all the work myself and a project usually takes me about 2 years. Have a complete 55 2 door sedan in the garage that was a bare body sitting on a frame when I bought it. My 58 Vette was as pictured in my avatar when I bought it. No engine and missing a lot of parts. About 80% complete now. All the work myself on a tight budget. When its done I will have about what it is worth in it but much pleasure in the process. I don't want a car to look at, I want a car to work on.
11-30-2016, 06:20 PM
Pricing project cars
