mpuzach

I've often thought about how cool it was back in the 60s and 70s when there were a number of different engines buyers could choose from in their Corvettes. L88, L89, L71, and LT1 are of course standouts. Then there was the ZL1. I've read MANY articles that all state that only two '69 ZL1s actually left the factory. I think all would agree that Roger Judski's Daytona Yellow coupe was one of them. It's the other one that's confusing. Some articles say that it's a Monaco Orange roadster while others say it's a Can-Am White coupe. Proponents of both claim documentation of authenticity and Bloomington Gold certification. Does anyone here know the truth? Is it possible that there were actually three built? This kind of history fascinates me. Thx for any info.

Easy Mike

Not likely, but, then, never say never.

hunt4cleanair

As it does many others. The third, was submitted for judging and issues arose to its authenticity. I can't speak to the particulars.

mpuzach

Do you know which one had its authenticity questioned?

69ttop502

I believe the White one in the Sudyham (sp) collection is the questionable one. I saw the orange one a few years ago in Kissimmee in its race livery. Cool car!

Duntov

The orange one has been floating around for 20 years or so. They claimed it to be that, but never showed documentation to validate the claim as I recall. I had heard some stories recently further casting a shadow on the validity of the car. I can say that the whole issue is very political, and that's all I will say.

mpuzach

Thank you to all for your responses. I'll keep checking this thread for any additional thoughts that may get posted.

ed427vette

Well, I'll come right out and say it. I posted about the orange car a few months back when they showed the tank sticker in the NCRS Driveline.

I spoke to the original owner of the car about 10 years ago before he sold it. It was being displayed at a small "L88/Corvette race car show" hosted by Kevin Mackey near McArthur Airport out on Long Island. The show was being held inside some speed shop garage, don't remember the name. I have lots of pics. The orange car still had the Gulf livery.

Now it gets very interesting. As I remember, the original owner told me he put the ZL1 engine in the car early in its life.....that's right. And I was not alone when he told me that. I was with my girlfriend as well as two other friends and we all heard the same thing. I don't know the mans name, just that we spoke for awhile about cars, his past racing stories (very funny stuff) and the ZL1. I didn't think much about it at the time, why would I. It was just a really cool old car. But it means something now........

The show had a bunch of great cars. The C2 Cunningham race car was there as it was just finished as well as the blue 66 Sunoco L88, the Yenko cars, the KoMotion car, etc.

Now it gets better. A few months back I see the tank sticker in the NCRS driveline magazine. I know a little about real paperwork, especially for 1969. The first thing is that all the tank stickers as well as other GM paperwork was printed on a IBM 1403 high speed dot matrix printer. This is not like a printer of today. In order to print on it you must use a mainframe program that can not be changed on the fly, meaning it will have a very definite set of parameters and format. It will not make a spelling mistake, unless all the forms contain the same spelling mistake. Do you see where I'm going with this? All the forms from a given time frame will have the same characteristics. In 1969 there were two different types of formats with regard to tank stickers. The change occurs the first week of September 1969. All before that date are the same. All after that date are all the same but different than the first type. By the way, window stickers also got changed at that same time.

Well, the tank sticker for the orange car has anomalies that do not match what I know to be original tank stickers of other 1969 cars. I find it hard to accept that this very unique car now also has what would be a very unique tank sticker.

Very extraordinary claims require very extraordinary proof.

Also, when it comes to real documentation, the IBM printers have some very unique trademarks and footprints they leave on the documents that are identifiable under close examination. The "repro" document producers do not replicate this detail. It may not be possible for them to do so unless they buy the IBM and learn how to program it. Good luck. It can't be produced with a typewriter or laser printer.

If you look up my old post on this car I get into the specific problem I noticed with the tank sticker.

But to be absolutely clear. I am not saying this is not a real ZL1 or even that the tank sticker is fake. But I can't see why that the tank sticker would have the unique feature it had and I can't dismiss the conversation I had with the person who claimed to be the original owner of the orange ZL1. Did I check the guys license and registration? No, why would I. So could he have been some crazy guy claiming to own the orange car? Maybe but why? Could all of us misunderstood what he said?

Also, I have no dog in this fight. I could care less if its real or not. I would prefer if it was real as these are great cars. But I am only interested in honest disclosure which when it comes to expensive cars goes out the window.

So if the new owner of the orange ZL1 sees this thread and wants to kick my *** all I can say is what I am saying is absolutely the truth as I remember it. I have no reason to lie about this.

PS, my original post about this car was from May 20, 2016. In that post there is a picture of the tank sticker.

mpuzach

Thank you, Ed, for your post. It's fascinating to say the least.

emccomas

ALL of the currently identified ZL-1 cars have "issues" associated with originality.

That could be original engine issue, tank sticker paperwork issue, etc.

I don't believe that any of the currently identified ZL-1 cars are 100% correct.

The ZL-1 cars I am aware of are:

1. Yellow coupe with black ZL-1 stripe - Judski car
2. Orange convertible with no stripe - ex Maher car
3. White coupe with different type of stripe - Suydam car
4. Blue ZL-1 convertible with ZL-1 stripe - Florida car

Rowdy Rat

Kick your ***? Probably not. Sue your ***? Hey, you're on your own my friend!

Regards,

Stan Falenski

ed427vette

LOL!! Think about how crazy that would be. And its so typical. Getting sued for telling the truth, but not suing the guy that created a possible fake car....

Also if you read the ad it says they have several affidavits? I don't know. I'm sure the story will not end here.

mvftw

Ed, I was also at that show. I remember he said he was a PA State Trooper and wanted to go fast. He did order the car as a ZL-1 and took out the original motor early in it's life. He was going through a bad divorce and 'hid' the car for many years...I remember it was a real good show...For what's it's worth, I left the show convinced it was real...but that was then...your info puts a cloud around it...
BTW...we should have a beer at 'The Good Life'...

ed427vette

I sincerely do not remember him saying he ordered it that way. The car was in the left corner when you came in through the garage door side correct? Close to Sunoco car. I do remember him saying he put the motor in the car. Could we have misunderstood? Maybe, but when I brought it up years later my friends thought thats what he said also. If it truly is real, what I say, or remember him saying should not really make any difference. I can't even say I'm sure that's who owned the car. I never met the man before or ever saw the car in person before. But it did happen as I said, at least to the way I remember it. He spoke about how he raced with Smokey, being a young mechanic, things like that, but nothing about a divorce or being trooper ever came up with us.

Mackay talked about finding the Cunningham in his speech, I remember that and I remember Lee with his blue 69 coupe. Really great cars were at that show.

Getting back to the ZL1:

The tank sticker is unusual. All original 1969 tank stickers I have seen all have the same things in common. One of which would be the position of where they show the positraction option. It should be located in two spots. It should be shown in the upper section on the "axle" line and again under the "comfort & con" line. The tank sticker they show has no info placed in the upper "axle" line but has it two times under "comfort & con".

If that document is legit, then it throws out everything I know about the Ibm Printer. if for some reason it is NOT real then that would cast doubt on everything and people make that mistake often. They make fake docs for real legit cars and actually hurt the authenticity of the car in question..

I also want to say I did NOT look carefully at the orange ZL1 that day. I remember once I heard the engine was a drop in I lost a little interest in it. Like I said before, maybe we just misunderstood what he said.

I really hope I am wrong.

The Good Life has some good food, but the Tap Room down the block from it has some really good food and some good flavored beers.

See you out there,
Ed

emccomas

One thing that puzzles me, perhaps someone can shed some light on it.

The article on the orange ZL-1 that appeared in a magazine had pictures of the sales order, and I also have pictures of the engine pad from that car.

The sales order is dated 12/30/1968.

The sales order has the Motor Number listed as T0828MG.

The picture of the engine pad as the car sat on the Bloomington show field has a Motor Number of T1022MG, and the one in this case is the digit '1', and not the letter 'I'.

69427

Real or faked, they're all just dust magnets.

marshal135

Thank you Ed,
I got one hell of a lesson there.
Marshal





ed427vette;1593582485]Well, I'll come right out and say it. I posted about the orange car a few months back when they showed the tank sticker in the NCRS Driveline.

I spoke to the original owner of the car about 10 years ago before he sold it. It was being displayed at a small "L88/Corvette race car show" hosted by Kevin Mackey near McArthur Airport out on Long Island. The show was being held inside some speed shop garage, don't remember the name. I have lots of pics. The orange car still had the Gulf livery.

Now it gets very interesting. As I remember, the original owner told me he put the ZL1 engine in the car early in its life.....that's right. And I was not alone when he told me that. I was with my girlfriend as well as two other friends and we all heard the same thing. I don't know the mans name, just that we spoke for awhile about cars, his past racing stories (very funny stuff) and the ZL1. I didn't think much about it at the time, why would I. It was just a really cool old car. But it means something now........

The show had a bunch of great cars. The C2 Cunningham race car was there as it was just finished as well as the blue 66 Sunoco L88, the Yenko cars, the KoMotion car, etc.

Now it gets better. A few months back I see the tank sticker in the NCRS driveline magazine. I know a little about real paperwork, especially for 1969. The first thing is that all the tank stickers as well as other GM paperwork was printed on a IBM 1403 high speed dot matrix printer. This is not like a printer of today. In order to print on it you must use a mainframe program that can not be changed on the fly, meaning it will have a very definite set of parameters and format. It will not make a spelling mistake, unless all the forms contain the same spelling mistake. Do you see where I'm going with this? All the forms from a given time frame will have the same characteristics. In 1969 there were two different types of formats with regard to tank stickers. The change occurs the first week of September 1969. All before that date are the same. All after that date are all the same but different than the first type. By the way, window stickers also got changed at that same time.

Well, the tank sticker for the orange car has anomalies that do not match what I know to be original tank stickers of other 1969 cars. I find it hard to accept that this very unique car now also has what would be a very unique tank sticker.

Very extraordinary claims require very extraordinary proof.

Also, when it comes to real documentation, the IBM printers have some very unique trademarks and footprints they leave on the documents that are identifiable under close examination. The "repro" document producers do not replicate this detail. It may not be possible for them to do so unless they buy the IBM and learn how to program it. Good luck. It can't be produced with a typewriter or laser printer.

If you look up my old post on this car I get into the specific problem I noticed with the tank sticker.

But to be absolutely clear. I am not saying this is not a real ZL1 or even that the tank sticker is fake. But I can't see why that the tank sticker would have the unique feature it had and I can't dismiss the conversation I had with the person who claimed to be the original owner of the orange ZL1. Did I check the guys license and registration? No, why would I. So could he have been some crazy guy claiming to own the orange car? Maybe but why? Could all of us misunderstood what he said?

Also, I have no dog in this fight. I could care less if its real or not. I would prefer if it was real as these are great cars. But I am only interested in honest disclosure which when it comes to expensive cars goes out the window.

So if the new owner of the orange ZL1 sees this thread and wants to kick my *** all I can say is what I am saying is absolutely the truth as I remember it. I have no reason to lie about this.

PS, my original post about this car was from May 20, 2016. In that post there is a picture of the tank sticker.[/QUOTE]

Rowdy Rat

My comment was somewhat sarcastic in nature, but unfortunately the law suit issue is true. Watch yourself...

Regards,

Stan

kenba

It's sad when someone can't state there opinion about a Corvette. NCRS judges do it every time a car is judged. I don't understand why when someone like Ed questions a Corvette that a few of the Corvette elite which by the way have a financial interest in say its real have to swallow the pill. I call BS. Ed keep stating your opinion as we need more people saying the emperor has no cloths.
KEN

mvftw

Ed, I believe that, that show had BBQ from Big Al's, right...(it was so good that I went to Big Al's after the show and took some home for dinner)...If you agree that that's the show we were at, that's what the guy said...I have pix with the owner & car somewhere...