NewbVetteGuy

Ok folks I've been doing some research and talking to one professional engine builder who's done a lot of crate engine builds with the FIRST intake and I think I understand the limitations of the out-of-the-box intake much more. I have a difficult decision to make and I'd love to talk it through with some CF folks....

In a nutshell, the FIRST intake out-of-box tops out at 425 HP. Which is incredible for a TPI-style intake, but is a mild limitation with my heads and a significant limitation if I ever rebuild the bottom end as a 383 stroker...

Precision Race Engines offers a few different crate motors built with the FIRST intake, and anything on a normal bore 4.000-4.040" tops out at 425 HP -350 or 383; doesn't matter. With good heads the 383 just has more torque than the 350 and no additional HP...



My heads on a 350 with my components should hit 440 HP, BUT the FIRST would choke them @ 425 HP. It's still a pretty great trade-off: trading 15hp for 30-40 ft lbs of torque.

The problem is if I ever need to rebuild the bottom-end I'd definitely want to go with a 383 Stroker and then I'd be giving up more like 75 HP which is pretty awful. I could get the intake extrude honed but that would cost an absolutely insane $800 and I'm not really sure how many more HP moving from a 1.75" inside diameter to a 1.85" inside diameter would net me.

The other thought that occurred to me is that the max possible widest tire I can fit on this 79" vette without fender flares, is 285 width; I've got a super low 1st gear in the 4L60e and I'm probably never going to be able to put the power to the ground even if I went the extrude honed FIRST route. -Precision Race Engines 383 with a FIRST intake has 500 ft lbs of torque with Brodik 200cc heads with a larger CSA than my Profiler 195s and without the FIRST being extrude honed. 500 ft lbs with a 355 rear gear, a 3.06 1st gear and extra torque multiplication from a torque converter with 285 width tires as the max just sounds like a handful to keep on the road.... Maybe I should trade some torque for some HP and just go with a dual plane EFI manifold...







Now I'm thinking about just getting a good dual plane intake with injection bosses welded in -I really want to do sequential multi-point fuel injection...

Anyone know anyone who sells an AFR Titan DPR with injection bosses? (It sounds crazy but I'd actualy save a load of money with an AFR Titan; lol!)

Or an Edelbrock Perform RPM with injection bosses already welded in?

Adam

cv67

Put it together and drive it first you have no way of knowing if a change now will hurt or not;you have spent mos coming up with a decent plan that will run hard on the street. Guyswith similar combos are breaking 11s with that. Say you went low 12s thats not enough?

Use a single plane if going injection no dual plane!
Agree 800 for .1 is a ripoff and wont really make a difference youd see


Stik with your original build plan youll like it there will always be someone trying to get you to change your mind, build smaller?Never
Modulate your right foot theres always the option of MT. You have a few more gears youll need that torque to pull the gears
If you got bored sure you could add a vortech.




The 383 will make more power period stop reading start building.

ezobens

A lot of this is very subjective so you really need to know what YOU want out of it, not what others think you want out of it or you'll never come to a decision.
Personally, I went with the FIRST on my 409 for several reasons and none of those reasons where due to public opinion-
In fact most people tried to talk me out of it, including my builder.
For me, I love gobs of low end torque and power under 5000RPM as I grew up driving big blocks. That's why I replaced the 350 for the 409.
The 350 just didn't have the torque and winding the snot out of it to go fast doesn't appeal to me.
Again, not everyone's cup of tea but I don't care- My car, my rules.

There are many ways to get low end torque but since I tend to follow the path less traveled, I went with the FIRST.
The main reason is I love the amount of low end torque TPIs produce- And I laugh when I hear folks complain about "too much" low end torque.
I have yet to own a car that had too much low end torque. lol
The gas pedal isn't an on/off switch, you CAN modulate how far sideways you want to go down the road so to me it's a ridiculous argument.
Second reason is that it just looks SO damn cool! Yeah, yeah, yeah, no real quantifiable reason but that's why this stuff is so subjective.
I also have NO desire to wind this thing past 5500RPM so having an engine that peaks above 6000RPM is of no interest or use to me.

In all honesty, if you want the easiest and most flexible approach, go with a throttle body (carb style) intake with injector bosses. Much easier to install and a ton of people are doing it.
As always, the choice is YOURS.

lionelhutz

The TPI appears to be a great intake since "torque rules on the street". But in practice, you do not see anyone building higher HP/cu-in engines with real long runner intakes.

Here's how to consider HP and torque (and why long runner intakes are not used).

HP tells you how fast you car can accelerate when you use the proper gearing (and torque converter) to make best use of the HP.

Torque tells you how fast you car will accelerate when you have picked the gear you are using. Basically, the acceleration rate follows the torque curve.

So, this basically means that the wide flat torque curve of the TPI feels great because it causes a nice constant "pull" when you accelerate in a certain gear. But, the torque curve rolls of relatively early and the peak HP is low compared to a shorter runner intake. So, when you make proper use of you gearing to achieve peak acceleration your car is slower then it could be.

Now, what this all means for you in your build is hard for anyone else to know. But I will say that thinking to get rid of torque for HP makes no sense. If you build to make more HP you will do it at a higher rpm. Then, you will pick more gearing to get the rpm up so you can use the HP. Well, you just added torque multiplication and are likely putting more twisting force to the axles then before.

NewbVetteGuy

Lol; thanks! This is the kind of pep-talk I was hoping to get by posting this.

I actually tried to place my order with Ken 3 days ago, but he won't take my money at the moment as he's waiting on a new order of intakes from the foundry and I think he's had unhappy people in the past who have submitted payment and then have had to wait quite a while to get their intakes.


-The lag time was giving me cold feet as my wife is also starting to ask about $$$ this is all going to cost at the same time; lol!



In my eventual future 383 build, I really would like to hit 475-500 hp with a FIRST intake and seeing some professional engine builders being unable to hit that got me concerned. GrumpyVette has been pretty adamant that 500hp on a FIRST is possible if the intake is "hogged out"/ extrude honed bigger but I expected extrude honing to cost $200-$300; $350 tops; it's actually $800 plus 2 way shipping....


I haven't seen anything else I'm honestly remotely interested in or that aligns so well to my goals and vision for this car and I'm going to end up buying it either way, but a 383 that tops out @ 425 HP would make me sad...

If Ken just had some actual dyno information like any other seller / builder on earth I wouldn't have such huge reservations and second thoughts. It's the complete lack of objective, quantifiable information that recurringly just makes me want to scrap this whole thing "money back guarantee" or not. It's just unbelievable to me this guy owns the right to this thing and literally has a foundry casting new intakes and the only information his website hosts is prices and pictures of people's cars with the intake on it.

-Just pay a reputable builder one time to slap an intake on an appropriately matched 350, 383 and 400 and pay them to put them on the dyno; how much would this even cost? The lack of such information just recurringly brings this things capability into question; this should be the shining example that pushes back on the notions of TPI intakes and that they can't actually produce decent power along with their insane torque; what's needed to do that is a dyno sheet from a reputable builder/ dyno operator; this thing has been out for DECADES now. NOT putting it on a dyno just REINFORCES people's pre-conceived notions. (I'm going to start a "GoFundMe" page for Ken to put this thing on a dyno; lol!)



</End Rant>


Adam

NewbVetteGuy

Also, thanks for the pep-talk.

I'm also very much interested in low-end torque and fun acceleration, but I've got a maximum tire width of 285 to deal with and rain about 9 months out of the year so having the tires randomly break loose and wreck my precious is a scenario that concerns me. Being able to leave in 1st without spinning the tires all the way up the hill concerns me, but I think it's a problem I'll be happy to have. -I'm also a huge tech geek and if when it's all done, I have to tell my wife that I need to spend some more money on a traction control system to make it "safe to drive", I wouldn't mind having yet another computer in my car. ;-)


Adam

NewbVetteGuy

Spend some time on the Third Gen forums and you'll see that that's not actually true.

It's a terribly marketed product, a terribly named product that makes it near impossible to ever do even basic search engine optimization; but the FIRST intake is the exception to the rule. You can blow more air through a 2" diameter straw than you can a 1 cm diameter straw; HP AND long-runner intakes are not mutually exclusive, you just have to get beastly diameter to make it happen

434 CU FIRST intake crate engine makes 575 ft lbs of torque @ 4,000 RPM and 450 HP @ 5,000 RPMs with a cam of only 224 degrees of duration @ 0.050" lift. ---A TEENY, TINY cam on a 434 CU IN engine.

http://precisionraceengines.com/crat...-engine-450-hp


If Ken would offer a version of the FIRST with 1.85" ID instead of 1.75" and a 1"-2" shorter runner length I think you'd definitely see 500HP and 500+ft lbs out of a 383. (I'm not enough of a PipeMax guru to have calculated the exact estimated ID.)


Adam

Increasing the inside diameter not only lets you flow more air but it moves the tuned peak torque RPM up slightly.

cv67

Adam just got off the phone with a member yesterday Ive pdone some superrams for that made 410rwhp on his last 383 build almost identical; no problems being "dangerous"whoever told you 425 hp is the max is uninformed parts have come a long way since the 90s. Hoping his new build get him closer to 440 at the tire
cfm is just a # runner length counts for a lot, at the end of the day cant hav eit all. Short or long runner youll have plenty of useable power
In higher gears youll always want more so dont second guess yourself. TPIs arent for everyone but if packaged right can be pretty quick on the street.
Doing research is good but sometimes its easy to get confused change build in midstream and then- believe me weve all done it once or twice

I have a build that via internet should make 0 torque and be undriveable, not so.

gkull

I think that you are grossly overestimating a 350's ability. The top of the line Z-06 in years past was only 405 hp.

I had traction problems with 15 inch tires. Modern ultra performance tires are in a new league. With AA traction and A temp ratings. I went to 17X10 wheels with 285 width tires when they first came out. probably over 25 years ago....... I hardly slow down even in pouring down rain.

I had a 700R4 in this picture

NewbVetteGuy

That helps a lot.


This whole build is just kind overwhelming as I've never done this before and I'm going in a direction that not a lot of people go and I think now I'm buying a ton of parts and still don't have a fully step-by-step mental list of what I need to do to get it all together, so I'm getting cold feet.

This is exactly why I wanted to be able to "shotgun blast" purchase everything all at once so there's no looking back.

I need to convince Ken to take my money; lol.


Adam

NewbVetteGuy

Thanks again, Cuisineart. There's probably no one who's helped me with my build than you so far as we seem to be on all the same internet forums.

But is a superram really a fair comparison? Aren't the runners considerably shorter than the FIRST? -I thought the original Superram was pretty close to LS intake runner lengths.


You're also talking about a PORTED intake and I'm really trying to avoid the costs of getting something like this ported.

I just don't see how taking a head with a min CSA of 2.19" and shrinking it down to 1.75" min CSA (for the intake tract as a whole) doesn't limit airflow / power in a significant way; at about 425HP seems about right...



A large part of the problem is Ken / FIRSTs complete lack of any engine dyno testing; the only engine dyno result I have to go on is from Precision Racing Engine's crate motors and their dyno results.


Here's a real 383 crate engine with a FIRST intake, Brodik IK 200cc heads, and a 224@ 0.050" cam (although a Comp XFI series--EW!); 425 HP, 500 ft lbs torque; it's using the newest gen FAST EFI so this isn't an EFI limitation holding it back, either:
http://precisionraceengines.com/crat...-engine-425-hp These guys are the only crate engine builder that regularly builds with FIRST intakes; they've done loads of them and even have a 434 with a FIRST intake that gets 450HP. (With the same whimpy and, IMO dramatically undersized cam.)

People keeping saying that the dyno doesn't lie and even with a 200cc intake head and a good one like a Brodik IK, here's an engine dyno sheet that says 425 HP. The guy's 350 had the same HP and less torque.

As far as I can tell this is one of the only / the only? engine dyno of motor with the FIRST intake. If the FIRST intake out-of-box can do more than that, then Ken should put his money where his mouth is and pay to get a dyno sheet that proves otherwise. (There's been well over a decade to get this done; I can only conclude that he has dynoed it and didn't like the results so there's no dyno sheet on the website or otherwise available upon request. He can pay for a booth at CEMA but not to get a dyno sheet of his supposedly superior product?? -Fishy... VERY fishy.)

I've got subjective statements of what this thing should be able to do on one side of the scale, and objective measured dyno results from a fairly neutral 3rd party on the other side -which should I give more weight? -In my book objective measured data every time.

The man needs to get a dyno sheet for his product!



Adam

ddawson

My last hotrod I build from a 2004 GTO LS1 made 536 RWTQ at about 4600 RPM. Even at 3000 RPM it was 480.

It also had 285 tires. Yes it was a handful but was manageable with your right foot. Driving in the rain sucked.

lionelhutz

You need to ask the people who first tried to build more power with a TPI before switching to a good dual plane or single plane if they regretted the move and want to go back to the TPI intake.

PRE is likely using that little cam because the intake can't breath enough to support anything bigger. Put a different intake and 10* more cam into it and you can likely get at least 450ft-lbs @ 4000rpm and 100hp more when the engine can spin up to the 5800-6000rpm range.

You can't find any dyno curves for engines using this intake? The full range from say 2000rpm and up is what you want to see.

I'm not saying it's a bad intake for what it does, but it does have limitations.

ezobens

Not sure I'd be too hard on Ken-
Honestly, how many other vendors provide actual dyno results for the products they pedal? Not many come to mind.
Most just make claims that still need to be verified in person (IE CFM flows, projected HP and Torque increases etc).

I've met Ken several times and he runs his entire operation out of his barn. He's got nice machining equipment etc but it's largely a one man operation. His intakes are a niche market and he probably sells enough to at least break even but by no means is he pulling in dollars like an Edelbrock or AFR. There are many complicated castings and machining operations involved to produce one of these things and each one is machined individually in his shop. A labor intensive process to be sure.
At the $1000 or so price tag, I don't think he's making a killing on these by any stretch of the imagination.

Most of these dyno results are posted by either magazines doing comparisons or new product testing or by individuals like us. Unfortunately, most of us can't justify the cost of dyno testing a fair-weather 'play toy' either.
While it would be nice to know what my configuration will produce, I'm still on the fence if I want or need to spend the money for dyno time.
The seat of my pants is really all I need for my 'dyno'.
I'll know the first time (no pun intended) I lay into the gas pedal if I'm satisfied or not. If I'm happy, the dyno numbers become irrelevant to me (even though I know others would be interested).

jim2527

That's why you copy what someone else has done. There're a lot of really smart guys here who will guide you down the right path for free.

Every so often the big magazines have 'budget build' articles that lay everything right our there.....part numbers, cost etc.

cv67

TY newvetteguy

where do you want the meat of your powerband, what max rpm do you want that could help make your mind up
Superram a few in shorter not much but even ported doesnt measure up t a FIRST. Have your driven a built TPI car or single plane maybe you should?

ezobens

I not much of a "copy someone else" kinda guy-
I prefer to do my own research and come up with my own design.
While copying what someone else has done may be easier to achieve a particular result, you really don't learn much from the experience.
I prefer to take what I've learned and apply it- It's more fun for me that way and I do take some pride in knowing that I didn't just copy someone else. I don't disagree that there are many VERY talented folks out here and I do listen to what they have to say but at the end of the day, the configuration is my own design.
Your mileage may vary.

Metalhead140

I have no experience with this intake, and am no expert on anything, but largely this comes down to how you want to drive. I love a manual gearbox and an engine that revs, that's what I enjoy. I like low down torque, but enough is plenty, and particularly for a sports car, I want a car that will keep pulling up through the revs and be exciting to run through the gears. Heck, I just built an engine for my old f250 which we use for towing, and I concentrated on torque much more than hp, but still built an engine that made peak hp at 5500 and was still holding close to that at 6000. However it made peak torque at 4100 and was making over 400ftlb at 2500 rpm where we started the pulls on the engine dyno. That to me is a great truck engine... My Vette engine is strong down low but takes off up in the revs and peaks above 6000 (no figures, haven't had it on a dyno yet). That to me is a performance engine... The little 4 cylinder engine in my MG Midget made peak hp at 7100 and is really pretty gutless below ~2700, and I love it that way. Others like the poster above want limitless torque under 3000rpm, and will never see 4000. What do you want? How do you drive? What do you enjoy?