tfuith

thanks for the help. i have had nothing but problems with my swc fuelie
i keep reading the blogs and find i am even dumber than i thought. it says timing with the vac disconnected and pluged should be 10 Deg or 12 to 14 btdc. i go to set it with my dial back light and i get it to 12 deg or lower and it is barely running. i have had the fi unit and dist worked on by k. hansen so i am sure that the fi and dist is in working order.

i also read that total timing with everything connected should be 36 to 38

i do that and it seems to run smoother but its just not right

any ideas

tom f.

jimgessner

Its the total package of
1.- solid lifter valve adjustment.
2.- DWELL of the ignition points.
3.- Advance curve in the distributor
4.- Fuel and Air ratio adjustments.

THEN TIMING settings. Your numbers are good, but other items above must be checked. For instance, if a vacuum leak is present, nothing will work correctly. And todays ethanol based gasolines don't like Rochester Fuel Injection. 5 gallons of 108 leaded racing fuel or 100 Av gas will add up to 100 hp, and 250 rpm to idle speed and you will go WOW !! Where did that power come from.

Find a good tune up shop that has a dyno and exhaust analyzer. Todays technicians can check out the complete system. Even new ignition wires get weak.

MikeM

Yes, four of them.

I wouldn't worry about Ken's work.

Make sure your timing references match the actual position of the #1 piston by using a piston stop. If you appear to be off by 9*-10*, I'd suspect your balancer or timing cover mismatch.

Try another timing light.

I'm assuming you have a 097 cam with clearance set to the GM spec and not some aftermarket cheater cam.

I've never found it necessary to use racing gas or anything but standard 89 octane E 10 fuel to set my timing.

plaidside

Total timing all in with the vacuum advance disconnected should be 36-38 degrees around 3000 RPM and with the vacuum advance connected to a full vacuum source it should be 52-54 degrees.

Joe

hope2

check TDC mark is actually TDC.

tfuith

thanks. i use vp 110 and my dist has no points.

will anything happen at idle if i disconnect the vacuum advance. when i do that now nothing happens good or bad.

what vacuum reading should i have at idle and or 3000 rpm

thanks again tom

MelWff

1. Did you confirm that the outer metal ring on the harmonic damper has not shifted due to the rubber bonding it to the center hub deteriorating?
2. Are you using the dial back light correctly. With the vacuum advance disconnected are you setting the dial to 12 degrees and then aligning the line on the damper to the zero mark on the timing tab on the cover, or are you setting the dial back to zero and then aligning the line on the damper to the 12 degree mark on the timing tab on the cover ?
3. Do you have you vacuum line connected to manifold vacuum, line always has vacuum, or ported vacuum, the line only has vacuum when the throttle blade goes beyond a fixed point?

tfuith

this is what i did, got the engine to NOT with the vac line plugged. set the lite at 12 deg, turned the cap untill the line on the balancer reached zero on the tab, the idle dropped th where it just kept running, i then hooked up the vac and then the idle rose to around 1300 rpm i then adj the idle back to 850/950 seemed to idle with a little fluctuation but when i woud rev the engine it seemed to bog for a second

i then shut it off and am writing i have had this car 1.5 years and not driven more than 10 moles at one time. does this help

jerrybramlett

Tom -

I know Ken test drives his repaired FI systems, so I agree that your FI unit and distributor are not the root problem. It sounds like you're very frustrated at this point. I'd also be tired of spending money with no driving fun to offset it.

Here's what I'd do in your shoes: I would call Ken and find out how your engine and ignition set-up differs from his test car. He may ask you a lot of questions, but I'm sure he won't charge you for his time. Once you know how your car differs from his you'll have an idea what to try next.

If all else fails, you can call me. I'm confident I can diagnose your problem(s). I won't charge you for my time either.

Jerry Bramlett
Mobile, AL
(251) 478-4003

plaidside

If nothing happens when you connect the vacuum advance you either have no vacuum at the line or that advance is defective.
If everything is working correctly, the engine speed should rise when the vacuum hose is connected to the advance, it should add about 16 degrees to the base timing.
My fuel car idles at 850 and has almost 15"hg vacuum.
Joe

tfuith

thanks jerry, i will call ken and i also feel there is something going on ill try ken and see if the problem can be worked out over the phone and email. i am open to any suggestion. tom f.

jim lockwood

If your vacuum advance is connected to the Air Meter, which is the way the factory did it, then you have NO vacuum advance at idle. That's ported vacuum which turns on only after the throttle begins to open. So what you are observing seems normal..... for a '63 FI unit.

Jim

tfuith

joe my 62 runs fine on 110 vp but has no power options. the problem is with the 1963 swc how much different are the two units if you know let me know

thanks tom.f

63 340HP

Reading your findings (12d idle at 800, up to 1300 rpm as vacuum is piped) the engine response to the timing change is what should happen.

Dialing back the idle stop screw at this point is correct, to return the engine rpm to about 800.

The idle quality will be choppy, the lope expected of the 097 cam. If you feel the idle is too choppy a check of valve lash is a good place to start the effort to smooth out the idle character.

The 097 cam has long and shallow lash take up ramps, and allows for lash tuning. The factory lash for 1963, 0.008"I and 0.018"E, is the tight end of the hot running lash settings. You can smooth out the idle some by loosening up the lash. Lack as wide as 0.026"I and 0.030"E is often found as many people think every C2 fuelie cam is the later 30-30 cam. The point to take home is the cam is forgiving with respect to lash, and you can exploit this to your tuning advantage.

​​​​​​​Initial start up lash is often set loose to assist in cam break in. The break in rpm is not extreme enough to promote cam damage from a loose valvetrain, and the improved low rpm vacuum from the loose lash and assured valve seat sealing helps continued running and prevention of damage resulting from excessive starts and stops before the cam and lifters can break in. The potential for tight lash on start up to hang a valve off the seat, and the resulting poor idle performance is why reviewing and even loose adjustment of valve lash is wise when experiencing what you report.

If you are pleased with the idle, do not get too concerned if the timing with the vacuum advance plugged is 10 to 16 degrees, or that it jumps to 24 to 30 degrees with the vacuum connected and the idle stop screw backed down to produce 800 rpm when warmed up. If you get a quality idle, it indicates a good start for valve lash and initial timing. The distributor tuning should begin at this point of initial success.

​​​​​​​Be patient. Ten miles in 18 months is not enough to come close to break in or tuning opportunity. We do not know your tuning experience level, so be patient, and know that a few days now will benefit the next 18 months with more rewarding miles.

MikeM

That is correct!

PS. Didn't see an answer what camshaft is in the engine.

SWCDuke

Not true!

The '63 L-84 was set up with ported vacuum advance. Why? I don't know, but they screwed it up. It was fixed with the '64 ...380 system that provided full time vacuum advance and a VAC that passed the Two-Inch Rule.

To the OP: The OE centrifugal is 0 @ 700, 24 @ 4600. In order to set initial timing you have to get the engine to idle stably at less than 700 for a few minutes, which is virtually impossible. That's why you should set total WOT advance in the 36-40 range a few hundred revs above the point of max centrifugal, but that means revving the engine to about 5000.

The solution is to install lighter centrifugal springs to get it in by 3500 or even as soon as 2500. The engine will be more responsive in the lower rev range.

What you really need to do first is test for the centrifugal start and stop points and total centrifugal advance because it may have been modified in the last 54 years.

I also recommend you convert to full time vacuum advance, which will require replacing the OE 15" 201 15 VAC (or whatever is installed) with current 8" B28.

The above setup should yield about 12" @ 900 idle behavior assuming it has a OE equivalent Duntov cam or something close.

Duke

MikeM

If that is a stock rebuild, it oughta' idle nicely at 750 rpm. Pookity, pookity, pook, pookity, pookity, pook. It should also pul about 13-15 inches of vacuum if you hook the OEM vacuum control to straight manifold vacuum.

Something is wrong here with either your timing method, your distributor, or your FI if you can't get it to idle satisvactorily to the factory settings.

You don't need to swap parts, change the vacuum source around (even though it helps).

In deference to the title of your thread, there are no secrets here.

Jginger

If your bushing on mech advance limit pin is missing, an you total time
at 36 or 38 your idle advance will not be correct.

aaronz28

1) do you know for sure that it has the correct (or close to) the OE camshaft?
2) you need a dial back timing light - without knowing the answer to #1 and not having #2 - its gonna be a tough go!

i say this because everyone things they are smarter than GM engineers when it comes to camshafts and modern engines.... i.e. a lot of builders like to build a low compression engine with a modern camshaft thinking they are doing the customer a favor.

tfuith

thanks mike when i hook up a vacuum gage to the source i get steady readings at around 12/13 as you stated