My LS3 Cam-Only disaster
09-06-2012, 07:12 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
My LS3 Cam-Only disaster
This all started out after seeing a thread posted by a Supporting Vendor for a Cam Only install at a killer price, so I posted in the thread with some questions. From there I got a PM from Race Proven Motorsports (frans96ss) offering to match their price. Seeing that they were closer by 45 minutes and I had seen them on the forums for years, I decided to go with them!
From there I was on a hunt for which cam to install. Fran suggested a 235/242 .621/.615 114+1
Lots of guys on the forum suggested looking into Pat G for a recommendation. Pat suggested I go with a 231/238 .617/.615 113+2
I spoke with Fran about the 2 different cams and he said either one of them would be great, so I decided to go with the smaller cam for drivability… I also chose this because another member, Wazslow, also went with this exact cam installed himself and had great results.
With that Fran/RPM ordered the cam from Comp Cams and had it custom cut and ordered everything else up… The whole install included all the following: Patriot Dual Springs, Ti retainers, LS2 Timing Chain, Melling Oil pump, Ported the TB, Underdrive Pulley, trickflow pushrods, few other odd/ends needed like plugs, belts, etc.
So, I brought the car in Mon - 2/27/12 and the following day I got my baseline dyno results: 416/409
Baseline mods were: Kooks LT Headers, Offroad X-pipe, Z06 Mufflers w/ M2W, Vararam
160 tstat, ECS Street Tune
They took a few days and it was done on Friday – 3/2/12. Results were great… 487rwhp and 445ft/tq and the first time I started it up, I was in awe!! Drivability was also great.
From that point leaving the shop it was about a 100 mile drive home, then took it for a few short cruises locally, and to work one day… all in total I was less than 225 miles, 9 days, and 3 rides from picking it up after the cam install.
Headed home from work that day (3/12, 9 days after picking it up from the cam install), which is about 70 miles total, I was only blocks from home when the car started to sound very strange which had me worried! Once I got it home I let it idle and it sounded almost like an exhaust leak, despite the fact that I couldnt find one... Took off the valve cover and noticed the front most rocker valve was bolted down tight but had all kinds of play. Pic/Vid below... I pulled the pushrod out and rolled it on a flat surface and it didnt appear to be bent :-/ The spring also did not appear to be cracked anywhere... From there I spoke with the shop and we both felt that perhaps the lifter had collapsed.
Original thread at this point - http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...m-or-what.html
So the next day (3/13/12) , I towed the car back down to the shop. The game plan was to have them pull the head off & assess the damage and hopefully see about replacing the lifters on both sides of the motor.
13 Days later, after a few calls and emails checking on the status, they finally got the heads off the car and couldn’t get the front most lifter out of the motor, and when they pulled the rest of the lifters noticed they were all messed up and the one lifter broke apart and lifter wheel fell into the motor… I was told the motor would have to be pulled and disassembled to get all the metal out. It was also suggested that I missed a shift and/or over revved it, and that the cam may have been too big, though the cam they originally spec’d me at RPM was larger than the Pat G I had installed, specs above. I definitely did not over rev it and I contacted Pat G and said this cam has been safely used in lots of LS3’s and I knew of one that was finished the same week as mine, by forum member WazSlow, so I don’t see how it could have been too big.
Here is the thread I started at this point looking into cam sizes - http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...d-pistons.html
I gave them the OK to pull the motor and clean everything up on 3/26. In the meantime, more calls/emails/PMs were ignored, till I had to drive down there to see what was going on, to see that the car was still sitting with the motor in the car still. So they promised to get on it. By 4/5, the motor was at the machine shop and was all cleaned up I was told. I made multiple calls, emails, PMs in the following days and couldn’t get anything out of them till I sent a PM on 4/16 that I felt I was being dodged again, and then got a reply with excuses about how they were busy with buying a new shop and busy there, but all I asked was for a quick update, and to go 10 days was inexcusable IMO. They said they were still waiting on the cam to come in, and then it would go back together.
Again, I was left out of the loop for about 2 weeks even as I called / emailed / PMd… Finally I got a PM back that the car was finally going back together and rec’d some pics of such. Even then it wasn’t until 5/8 that the car was tuned and ready to be picked up. All in all, it cost me $3080 to repair the motor, and I also paid another $1600 for a McLeod RXT clutch & flywheel, slave, pilot bearing, and remote bleeder, which I will say he did not charge me full install price since the motor was already out. Also the motor was re-tuned free of charge, but I would say this is required with the new cam anyway, and was only an hour of their time. I asked for all the old parts back so I could possibly get them looked at to find out what happened, however all he gave me was the cam and the one lifter that was damaged… It should also be noted that the whole time this thing was going on, I did not post their name in any of the threads or try to trash their name… Nor am I now, but simply posting the facts of what happened and what’s transpired since!
When I picked the car up, I again asked them to cut more money off on the bill as I still did not feel this was of any fault on my doing, but rather some kind of install error or incorrect parts supplied. However, he was not willing to drop any further. SO, I sucked it up, paid the bill and was simply somewhat happy to have my car back!
A few days later, Fran emailed me asking about how everything felt… I replied that the driveability was nowhere near as good as the prev cam, and that it stalls on rare occassion, bucks more, and has less vacuum making the Z06 mufflers open up at certain RPMs. And that these issues were weird considering I only picked up 7 HP and lost 12ft/lbs of TQ. Again, I never received a reply!
From there, I was kinda annoyed with everything and tried to put it in the back of my mind and forget about it…. Of course I was constantly afraid something was going to happen again to the car!
About 2 weeks later I had the cam inspected at Jesel… They put it on a Cam Dr and did a Rockwell Test (Hardness to see that it was heat treated), and they told me there were no issues with the cam. BUT they did determine what was wrong!
I attached a video of the cam at the bottom (I suggest watching it before reading further to understand what Im saying) and got some pictures as well, but the video shows this pretty good. They explained that when you look at the cam, you can tell it was installed too far into the motor, on many of the lobes you can see that the lifters were not riding in the center of the lobes, but rather the cam was installed too far aft in the motor somehow. Also when you look at the side of the lobes, you can see that lifters were scraping on the edge the lobes for the lifter forward in the motor. This must have caused the lifters to open the valves while the piston was up causing them to slap/kiss. Thus, causing the lifters to collapse and the one to break apart as it was slammed together. Theres no way this damage could be a busted lifter wheel that scraped up the top and sides of all the lobes systematically, as was also suggested.
Video –
This gave me more questions than answers... How the cam could have been installed too far? So I took the cam to another high performance shop / supporting vendor who was familiar with my whole ordeal (im withholding name b/c I promised them I would as I did not tell them the other shops name either / I dont see what good creating any issues between between shops would do good) and they confirmed the same thing.... They mentioned that maybe the wrong cam gear or retainer was used, and that they may have changed from one year or another. They said it was definitely an install error... And dont see how they could have missed this after the cam came out with the markings on the cam.
I relayed this information to Fran and exchanged about 10 emails back and forth in an attempt to get a refund on the money spent to repair the car, which I felt should have been covered by RPM. It was then said that he can’t guarantee parts supplied by someone else, which I did not supply either time, as he had the cam cut by Comp and delivered to him.
He then said if I could prove how it was too far into the motor, he would return the labor costs… I then explained that I dont know how or why it would go too far into the motor... Nor is it my job as a paying customer to. Errors or issues happen in all shops, business, and life. BUT, its about how you handle them! Because the bottom line is, and they continued to ignore this in previous emails... I paid them guys for a service and there was an issue, way too soon. And all the signs point to some kind of product or install problem... And none of that is of my fault, nor did they doing the right thing here...
I also asked him to explain how/why all this happened now after seeing the video/pics of the cam and he told me he could not explain it to me, and I find that hard to believe that a expert shop in these motors could not know such things.
In any case, I feel its pretty clear something went wrong with the install, less than 2 weeks and 250 miles later its too soon for there to be an issue at all thats not install error or product issues... The markings on the cam showing it was installed too far, lifters scraping side of the lobes, lifting valves into the pistons... yet when everything was taken apart this must have been apparent. Instead it was suggested that I missed a shift, over revved, or the cam was too big... I sucked it up and had them fix everything... Then it got more interesting as I at first had to drive down there to find out what was going on, after multiple emails/calls/PMs... I understand that they were busy but simple emails or call back to update me would have been great... Then in the end of the whole thing, they did as they said and helped me out a bit and cut $850 off the price of the repair and cheap install of clutch, though I asked for more help... But everyone I talked to (Jesel, the other shop in person and supporting vendors, and many knowledgeable forum members) and showed the cam and photos of the damage agree'd that it was not installed properly... and all the other shops agree'd that it sucked and would have repaired it w/o extra charge.... I still ended up paying about $3k after they cut the $850 off, on top of the original $2350 for the cam... Regardless, whether install error, the cam cut wrong, not heat treated, wrong cam, etc, anything of this matter should be of no fault of mine a customer simply dropping a car off and expecting a given product/install. But this didn’t even last 2 weeks or 250 miles from then. Sorry, but this isnt something that I take lightly and I've gone back and forth about how to handle the whole thing, whether to post a factual thread or not. And now im still nervous that the same thing might happen again, esp if there was a part re-used that may have caused the previous damage... Everytime I hear a little drivetrain noise I get to worrying. I really don’t know what else to say at that point other than the fact that this was not right and I believe I should have received the $3000 back from the repair above and beyond the $850 break the cut me originally, to make this right.
I hope this thread does not get deleted or locked as I tried to keep this thread as factual as possible keeping out my emotions as much as possible, but there are parts that cant be kept out while explaining everything. Everything included is factual as I have looked into it, from the timelines, lack of communication/customer service, lack of acknowledging the install/product errors, etc…
Ive been a forum member here for 13 years now... And I am usually extremely non-confrontational, and my intentions are not to bash RPM, but supply the facts and let other members make their own determination about their actions and to inform them if they plan to go there in the future. I tried to keep this as factual as possible keeping out my emotions as much as possible, but there are parts that cant be kept out while explaining everything. Everything included is factual as I have looked into it, from the timelines, lack of communication/customer service, lack of acknowledging the install/product errors, etc…
I welcome RPM to respond to this thread which I am sure they will, however, I believe the damage to the cam speaks for itself, as well as others who agree’d the damage description and cause are accurate… I wish them the best of luck, but they will not get anymore of my business as I planned on using them for much more in future, nor will they get a recommendation from me to anyone else.
Pics should be down in post #7
From there I was on a hunt for which cam to install. Fran suggested a 235/242 .621/.615 114+1
Lots of guys on the forum suggested looking into Pat G for a recommendation. Pat suggested I go with a 231/238 .617/.615 113+2
I spoke with Fran about the 2 different cams and he said either one of them would be great, so I decided to go with the smaller cam for drivability… I also chose this because another member, Wazslow, also went with this exact cam installed himself and had great results.
With that Fran/RPM ordered the cam from Comp Cams and had it custom cut and ordered everything else up… The whole install included all the following: Patriot Dual Springs, Ti retainers, LS2 Timing Chain, Melling Oil pump, Ported the TB, Underdrive Pulley, trickflow pushrods, few other odd/ends needed like plugs, belts, etc.
So, I brought the car in Mon - 2/27/12 and the following day I got my baseline dyno results: 416/409
Baseline mods were: Kooks LT Headers, Offroad X-pipe, Z06 Mufflers w/ M2W, Vararam
160 tstat, ECS Street Tune
They took a few days and it was done on Friday – 3/2/12. Results were great… 487rwhp and 445ft/tq and the first time I started it up, I was in awe!! Drivability was also great.
From that point leaving the shop it was about a 100 mile drive home, then took it for a few short cruises locally, and to work one day… all in total I was less than 225 miles, 9 days, and 3 rides from picking it up after the cam install.
Headed home from work that day (3/12, 9 days after picking it up from the cam install), which is about 70 miles total, I was only blocks from home when the car started to sound very strange which had me worried! Once I got it home I let it idle and it sounded almost like an exhaust leak, despite the fact that I couldnt find one... Took off the valve cover and noticed the front most rocker valve was bolted down tight but had all kinds of play. Pic/Vid below... I pulled the pushrod out and rolled it on a flat surface and it didnt appear to be bent :-/ The spring also did not appear to be cracked anywhere... From there I spoke with the shop and we both felt that perhaps the lifter had collapsed.
Original thread at this point - http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...m-or-what.html
So the next day (3/13/12) , I towed the car back down to the shop. The game plan was to have them pull the head off & assess the damage and hopefully see about replacing the lifters on both sides of the motor.
13 Days later, after a few calls and emails checking on the status, they finally got the heads off the car and couldn’t get the front most lifter out of the motor, and when they pulled the rest of the lifters noticed they were all messed up and the one lifter broke apart and lifter wheel fell into the motor… I was told the motor would have to be pulled and disassembled to get all the metal out. It was also suggested that I missed a shift and/or over revved it, and that the cam may have been too big, though the cam they originally spec’d me at RPM was larger than the Pat G I had installed, specs above. I definitely did not over rev it and I contacted Pat G and said this cam has been safely used in lots of LS3’s and I knew of one that was finished the same week as mine, by forum member WazSlow, so I don’t see how it could have been too big.
Here is the thread I started at this point looking into cam sizes - http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...d-pistons.html
I gave them the OK to pull the motor and clean everything up on 3/26. In the meantime, more calls/emails/PMs were ignored, till I had to drive down there to see what was going on, to see that the car was still sitting with the motor in the car still. So they promised to get on it. By 4/5, the motor was at the machine shop and was all cleaned up I was told. I made multiple calls, emails, PMs in the following days and couldn’t get anything out of them till I sent a PM on 4/16 that I felt I was being dodged again, and then got a reply with excuses about how they were busy with buying a new shop and busy there, but all I asked was for a quick update, and to go 10 days was inexcusable IMO. They said they were still waiting on the cam to come in, and then it would go back together.
Again, I was left out of the loop for about 2 weeks even as I called / emailed / PMd… Finally I got a PM back that the car was finally going back together and rec’d some pics of such. Even then it wasn’t until 5/8 that the car was tuned and ready to be picked up. All in all, it cost me $3080 to repair the motor, and I also paid another $1600 for a McLeod RXT clutch & flywheel, slave, pilot bearing, and remote bleeder, which I will say he did not charge me full install price since the motor was already out. Also the motor was re-tuned free of charge, but I would say this is required with the new cam anyway, and was only an hour of their time. I asked for all the old parts back so I could possibly get them looked at to find out what happened, however all he gave me was the cam and the one lifter that was damaged… It should also be noted that the whole time this thing was going on, I did not post their name in any of the threads or try to trash their name… Nor am I now, but simply posting the facts of what happened and what’s transpired since!
When I picked the car up, I again asked them to cut more money off on the bill as I still did not feel this was of any fault on my doing, but rather some kind of install error or incorrect parts supplied. However, he was not willing to drop any further. SO, I sucked it up, paid the bill and was simply somewhat happy to have my car back!
A few days later, Fran emailed me asking about how everything felt… I replied that the driveability was nowhere near as good as the prev cam, and that it stalls on rare occassion, bucks more, and has less vacuum making the Z06 mufflers open up at certain RPMs. And that these issues were weird considering I only picked up 7 HP and lost 12ft/lbs of TQ. Again, I never received a reply!
From there, I was kinda annoyed with everything and tried to put it in the back of my mind and forget about it…. Of course I was constantly afraid something was going to happen again to the car!
About 2 weeks later I had the cam inspected at Jesel… They put it on a Cam Dr and did a Rockwell Test (Hardness to see that it was heat treated), and they told me there were no issues with the cam. BUT they did determine what was wrong!
I attached a video of the cam at the bottom (I suggest watching it before reading further to understand what Im saying) and got some pictures as well, but the video shows this pretty good. They explained that when you look at the cam, you can tell it was installed too far into the motor, on many of the lobes you can see that the lifters were not riding in the center of the lobes, but rather the cam was installed too far aft in the motor somehow. Also when you look at the side of the lobes, you can see that lifters were scraping on the edge the lobes for the lifter forward in the motor. This must have caused the lifters to open the valves while the piston was up causing them to slap/kiss. Thus, causing the lifters to collapse and the one to break apart as it was slammed together. Theres no way this damage could be a busted lifter wheel that scraped up the top and sides of all the lobes systematically, as was also suggested.
Video –
This gave me more questions than answers... How the cam could have been installed too far? So I took the cam to another high performance shop / supporting vendor who was familiar with my whole ordeal (im withholding name b/c I promised them I would as I did not tell them the other shops name either / I dont see what good creating any issues between between shops would do good) and they confirmed the same thing.... They mentioned that maybe the wrong cam gear or retainer was used, and that they may have changed from one year or another. They said it was definitely an install error... And dont see how they could have missed this after the cam came out with the markings on the cam.
I relayed this information to Fran and exchanged about 10 emails back and forth in an attempt to get a refund on the money spent to repair the car, which I felt should have been covered by RPM. It was then said that he can’t guarantee parts supplied by someone else, which I did not supply either time, as he had the cam cut by Comp and delivered to him.
He then said if I could prove how it was too far into the motor, he would return the labor costs… I then explained that I dont know how or why it would go too far into the motor... Nor is it my job as a paying customer to. Errors or issues happen in all shops, business, and life. BUT, its about how you handle them! Because the bottom line is, and they continued to ignore this in previous emails... I paid them guys for a service and there was an issue, way too soon. And all the signs point to some kind of product or install problem... And none of that is of my fault, nor did they doing the right thing here...
I also asked him to explain how/why all this happened now after seeing the video/pics of the cam and he told me he could not explain it to me, and I find that hard to believe that a expert shop in these motors could not know such things.
In any case, I feel its pretty clear something went wrong with the install, less than 2 weeks and 250 miles later its too soon for there to be an issue at all thats not install error or product issues... The markings on the cam showing it was installed too far, lifters scraping side of the lobes, lifting valves into the pistons... yet when everything was taken apart this must have been apparent. Instead it was suggested that I missed a shift, over revved, or the cam was too big... I sucked it up and had them fix everything... Then it got more interesting as I at first had to drive down there to find out what was going on, after multiple emails/calls/PMs... I understand that they were busy but simple emails or call back to update me would have been great... Then in the end of the whole thing, they did as they said and helped me out a bit and cut $850 off the price of the repair and cheap install of clutch, though I asked for more help... But everyone I talked to (Jesel, the other shop in person and supporting vendors, and many knowledgeable forum members) and showed the cam and photos of the damage agree'd that it was not installed properly... and all the other shops agree'd that it sucked and would have repaired it w/o extra charge.... I still ended up paying about $3k after they cut the $850 off, on top of the original $2350 for the cam... Regardless, whether install error, the cam cut wrong, not heat treated, wrong cam, etc, anything of this matter should be of no fault of mine a customer simply dropping a car off and expecting a given product/install. But this didn’t even last 2 weeks or 250 miles from then. Sorry, but this isnt something that I take lightly and I've gone back and forth about how to handle the whole thing, whether to post a factual thread or not. And now im still nervous that the same thing might happen again, esp if there was a part re-used that may have caused the previous damage... Everytime I hear a little drivetrain noise I get to worrying. I really don’t know what else to say at that point other than the fact that this was not right and I believe I should have received the $3000 back from the repair above and beyond the $850 break the cut me originally, to make this right.
I hope this thread does not get deleted or locked as I tried to keep this thread as factual as possible keeping out my emotions as much as possible, but there are parts that cant be kept out while explaining everything. Everything included is factual as I have looked into it, from the timelines, lack of communication/customer service, lack of acknowledging the install/product errors, etc…
Ive been a forum member here for 13 years now... And I am usually extremely non-confrontational, and my intentions are not to bash RPM, but supply the facts and let other members make their own determination about their actions and to inform them if they plan to go there in the future. I tried to keep this as factual as possible keeping out my emotions as much as possible, but there are parts that cant be kept out while explaining everything. Everything included is factual as I have looked into it, from the timelines, lack of communication/customer service, lack of acknowledging the install/product errors, etc…
I welcome RPM to respond to this thread which I am sure they will, however, I believe the damage to the cam speaks for itself, as well as others who agree’d the damage description and cause are accurate… I wish them the best of luck, but they will not get anymore of my business as I planned on using them for much more in future, nor will they get a recommendation from me to anyone else.
Pics should be down in post #7
Last edited by CDaniel525; 09-06-2012 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Not sure why, but photos wont work...
09-06-2012, 07:49 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Oct 2002
Location: Grayson Georgia
Posts: 756
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
09-06-2012, 08:21 PM
#3
Safety Car
You know of course that this thread will be moved to the dispute forum.
Anyway, I don't know if you are expecting us to comment, but, I'll give me two cents since you did post here.
I am with RPM on this, how can the cam be installed to deep, you have a cam retainer plate and cam gear. I am unaware of any gear design changes that effects the position of the cam and this can be somewhat verified by looking at any parts catalog for gear interchangeability. I know jesel is an outstanding company, but, you said that the cam was installed too deep, yet the marks on the cam are to the backside of the lobes, which would indicate the cam would be too far forward.
Further, the spacing on the lobes is too far apart to have a lifter hit the adjacent lobe. maybe if you were running a 1" lifter in the stock location, but not in this case. If the lifter was hitting the adjacent lobe, there would be marks on the lobe flank. The roller is shrouded on the side by the lifter body.
You didn't mention how many miles were on the engine, just curious due to the reuse of the old lifters. The first pic of the lifter would indicate that the roller wasn't turning and caused the damage.
There are multiple posting on the internet of failed cam lobes after a new install, some even with new lifters. You say that the cam was hardened to the proper Rockwell hardness, so my guess would be an incompatibility between the lifters and cam.
I'm guessing that nobody actually checked the valve to piston clearance, if PatG says the lift is good and no piston interference, then how did the pistons get dinged. No, it was the lifters hitting the adjacent lobe. I could see the lifter perhaps sticking in the lifter bore, but there is more the one ding, unless all the lifters look like the lifter in the first lifter pic.
While I agree that RPM does owe 'something', they did supply the parts, if not the specs, you implied they reduced the price for the repair so I don't really know what more they can do. Aside from better communication and quicker work.
I might suggest that if RPM has a block laying around that you take the old cam and install it on the bench to verify the depth. They will clear up and questions to that aspect.
Good luck
Anyway, I don't know if you are expecting us to comment, but, I'll give me two cents since you did post here.
I am with RPM on this, how can the cam be installed to deep, you have a cam retainer plate and cam gear. I am unaware of any gear design changes that effects the position of the cam and this can be somewhat verified by looking at any parts catalog for gear interchangeability. I know jesel is an outstanding company, but, you said that the cam was installed too deep, yet the marks on the cam are to the backside of the lobes, which would indicate the cam would be too far forward.
Further, the spacing on the lobes is too far apart to have a lifter hit the adjacent lobe. maybe if you were running a 1" lifter in the stock location, but not in this case. If the lifter was hitting the adjacent lobe, there would be marks on the lobe flank. The roller is shrouded on the side by the lifter body.
You didn't mention how many miles were on the engine, just curious due to the reuse of the old lifters. The first pic of the lifter would indicate that the roller wasn't turning and caused the damage.
There are multiple posting on the internet of failed cam lobes after a new install, some even with new lifters. You say that the cam was hardened to the proper Rockwell hardness, so my guess would be an incompatibility between the lifters and cam.
I'm guessing that nobody actually checked the valve to piston clearance, if PatG says the lift is good and no piston interference, then how did the pistons get dinged. No, it was the lifters hitting the adjacent lobe. I could see the lifter perhaps sticking in the lifter bore, but there is more the one ding, unless all the lifters look like the lifter in the first lifter pic.
While I agree that RPM does owe 'something', they did supply the parts, if not the specs, you implied they reduced the price for the repair so I don't really know what more they can do. Aside from better communication and quicker work.
I might suggest that if RPM has a block laying around that you take the old cam and install it on the bench to verify the depth. They will clear up and questions to that aspect.
Good luck
09-06-2012, 08:24 PM
#4
OUCH! A scenario similiar to this one with a grenaded Dana 60 when I was 16 years old is why I now do 100% of my own work. I know exactly who is at fault if something is less than 100% correct. Best of luck with the resolution to this fiasco.
09-06-2012, 08:31 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
You know of course that this thread will be moved to the dispute forum.
Anyway, I don't know if you are expecting us to comment, but, I'll give me two cents since you did post here.
I am with RPM on this, how can the cam be installed to deep, you have a cam retainer plate and cam gear. I am unaware of any gear design changes that effects the position of the cam and this can be somewhat verified by looking at any parts catalog for gear interchangeability. I know jesel is an outstanding company, but, you said that the cam was installed too deep, yet the marks on the cam are to the backside of the lobes, which would indicate the cam would be too far forward.
Further, the spacing on the lobes is too far apart to have a lifter hit the adjacent lobe. maybe if you were running a 1" lifter in the stock location, but not in this case. If the lifter was hitting the adjacent lobe, there would be marks on the lobe flank. The roller is shrouded on the side by the lifter body.
You didn't mention how many miles were on the engine, just curious due to the reuse of the old lifters. The first pic of the lifter would indicate that the roller wasn't turning and caused the damage.
There are multiple posting on the internet of failed cam lobes after a new install, some even with new lifters. You say that the cam was hardened to the proper Rockwell hardness, so my guess would be an incompatibility between the lifters and cam.
I'm guessing that nobody actually checked the valve to piston clearance, if PatG says the lift is good and no piston interference, then how did the pistons get dinged. No, it was the lifters hitting the adjacent lobe. I could see the lifter perhaps sticking in the lifter bore, but there is more the one ding, unless all the lifters look like the lifter in the first lifter pic.
While I agree that RPM does owe 'something', they did supply the parts, if not the specs, you implied they reduced the price for the repair so I don't really know what more they can do. Aside from better communication and quicker work.
I might suggest that if RPM has a block laying around that you take the old cam and install it on the bench to verify the depth. They will clear up and questions to that aspect.
Good luck
Anyway, I don't know if you are expecting us to comment, but, I'll give me two cents since you did post here.
I am with RPM on this, how can the cam be installed to deep, you have a cam retainer plate and cam gear. I am unaware of any gear design changes that effects the position of the cam and this can be somewhat verified by looking at any parts catalog for gear interchangeability. I know jesel is an outstanding company, but, you said that the cam was installed too deep, yet the marks on the cam are to the backside of the lobes, which would indicate the cam would be too far forward.
Further, the spacing on the lobes is too far apart to have a lifter hit the adjacent lobe. maybe if you were running a 1" lifter in the stock location, but not in this case. If the lifter was hitting the adjacent lobe, there would be marks on the lobe flank. The roller is shrouded on the side by the lifter body.
You didn't mention how many miles were on the engine, just curious due to the reuse of the old lifters. The first pic of the lifter would indicate that the roller wasn't turning and caused the damage.
There are multiple posting on the internet of failed cam lobes after a new install, some even with new lifters. You say that the cam was hardened to the proper Rockwell hardness, so my guess would be an incompatibility between the lifters and cam.
I'm guessing that nobody actually checked the valve to piston clearance, if PatG says the lift is good and no piston interference, then how did the pistons get dinged. No, it was the lifters hitting the adjacent lobe. I could see the lifter perhaps sticking in the lifter bore, but there is more the one ding, unless all the lifters look like the lifter in the first lifter pic.
While I agree that RPM does owe 'something', they did supply the parts, if not the specs, you implied they reduced the price for the repair so I don't really know what more they can do. Aside from better communication and quicker work.
I might suggest that if RPM has a block laying around that you take the old cam and install it on the bench to verify the depth. They will clear up and questions to that aspect.
Good luck
How else can the sides of the lobes bearing scuffed down like that be explained?? IMO as it was scraping the sides of the lobes, it would at time, lift the lifter/pushrod/rocker/valve into the piston when it should have been seated.
Also, as you suggested, many of the lifters were scuffed up on the roller/wheel, but nowhere as bad as the first one. Again, it should be noted I did not receive those parts back as I requested
mileage was 37k and RPM didnt recommend changing the lifters and many guys on the forum have had great luck with the stock ls3 lifters... FWIW, they also replaced the lifters with stock ls3's
As far as what I feel they should owe, you mentioned they supplied the parts, which they did both times, but I had to pay both times including the repair. I feel they should have done more than cut $850 off the repair when regardless of what caused this to happen was not of any fault of mine and occurred within such a short time.
09-06-2012, 09:01 PM
#10
Safety Car
Another suggestion would be to compare the position of the lobes, fore and aft, against your stock cam.
It really looks like a call to Comp Cams is needed ....
It really looks like a call to Comp Cams is needed ....
09-06-2012, 09:02 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
And this is why I posted this here, not to trash talk RPM, but for people to understand the risks with dealing with others working on their car and how they handled my situation...
09-06-2012, 09:03 PM
#12
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I was never given my stock cam back, along with the rest of the parts (other than cam & 1 lifter ) that were damaged after the cam/lifter/piston all slapped and got damaged... Though I asked for everything back
09-06-2012, 09:09 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
They said the cam bolts did not back out... so if thats true how could the pin ever snap? short of breaking when removing it
Last edited by CDaniel525; 09-06-2012 at 09:13 PM.
09-06-2012, 09:18 PM
#15
That's why I NEVER mod my engines 
.
I'm no expert, but in this case, you don't have to be; it's obvious this was not the OP's fault. And even if the cam was the culprit (looks like it to me), any good shop should have caught that. BUT the shop can legally blame the cam, so the OP is screwed now. Should have looked into this BEFORE authorizing any repairs.
Anyway, the OP is right that you need to tune the car right away after a cam install, therefore having to trust somebody else to tune your car right anyway. THAT's why I never mod my engines. But for those who do, the lesson learned here is to DEMAND IN WRITING that the shop is 100% liable for any problems, so owner doesn't have to worry about who's at fault when something like this happens. And you have someobody to go after legally. If they don't want to do it, find somebody else. Good luck OP. We all make mistakes, and I've done many WAY costlier than yours. And yes, I'm talking about the mistake of trusting people without covering our butts.
. I'm no expert, but in this case, you don't have to be; it's obvious this was not the OP's fault. And even if the cam was the culprit (looks like it to me), any good shop should have caught that. BUT the shop can legally blame the cam, so the OP is screwed now. Should have looked into this BEFORE authorizing any repairs.
Anyway, the OP is right that you need to tune the car right away after a cam install, therefore having to trust somebody else to tune your car right anyway. THAT's why I never mod my engines. But for those who do, the lesson learned here is to DEMAND IN WRITING that the shop is 100% liable for any problems, so owner doesn't have to worry about who's at fault when something like this happens. And you have someobody to go after legally. If they don't want to do it, find somebody else. Good luck OP. We all make mistakes, and I've done many WAY costlier than yours. And yes, I'm talking about the mistake of trusting people without covering our butts.
Last edited by JCtx; 09-06-2012 at 09:24 PM.
09-06-2012, 09:18 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Aug 2010
Location: Honolulu Hawaii
Posts: 1,223
Likes: 0
Received 51 Likes
on
49 Posts
Normally I do my own stuff as well for these reasons but figured Id roll the dice with the necessary tuning thats needed almost immediately afterwards...
And this is why I posted this here, not to trash talk RPM, but for people to understand the risks with dealing with others working on their car and how they handled my situation...
And this is why I posted this here, not to trash talk RPM, but for people to understand the risks with dealing with others working on their car and how they handled my situation...
lessons learned I hope on this one.rolled the dice once on my blk. camaro cam swap install.just did the russian roullete method instead of shoving those rods to keep the lifters up.got lucky also low mileage on the car.best of luck.I would ask for your stock cam back again at least.
09-06-2012, 09:19 PM
#17
If you miss the cam dowel pin to timing gear hole alignment during install you can still pull the 3 bolts down while distoring/breaking the pin...especially if you are using a pneumatic wrench. The mislocated pin can force the cam to ride to the rear of it's bore...sorta like a big spacer. Do you happen to have the cam timing gear? How about a photo of the backside of that gear with emphasis on the pin hole?
Just speculation on my part by the way.
Just speculation on my part by the way.
09-06-2012, 09:33 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I'm no expert, but in this case, you don't have to be; it's obvious this was not the OP's fault. And even if the cam was the culprit (looks like it to me), any good shop should have caught that. BUT the shop can legally blame the cam, so the OP is screwed now. Should have looked into this BEFORE authorizing any repairs.
I should be out of the loop and not responsible for a part they supplied...
lessons learned I hope on this one.rolled the dice once on my blk. camaro cam swap install.just did the russian roullete method instead of shoving those rods to keep the lifters up.got lucky also low mileage on the car.best of luck.I would ask for your stock cam back again at least.
If you miss the cam dowel pin to timing gear hole alignment during install you can still pull the 3 bolts down while distoring/breaking the pin...especially if you are using a pneumatic wrench. The mislocated pin can force the cam to ride to the rear of it's bore...sorta like a big spacer. Do you happen to have the cam timing gear? How about a photo of the backside of that gear with emphasis on the pin hole?
Just speculation on my part by the way.
Just speculation on my part by the way.
I can definitely see what your suggesting MAY HAVE happened... But I feel there is no way they couldnt have figured out what actually happened and they weren't answering when I asked all these questions.
09-06-2012, 09:36 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
If anyone wants to see these emails we exchanged send me a PM with your email and Ill forward them to you... I dont think theyll post here as theyre long and edited differently.