[ANSWERED] GM encouragement for C5 aftermarket parts
02-06-2015, 12:46 AM
#22
Intermediate
I am guessing part of the problem here is that for some of these parts, GM just doesn't have the data to be able to put it into the public domain. If they outsourced the production to 3rd parties and those parties have gone out of business, the data may be lost. Sure, someone could probably recreate it given the specs GM DOES have for what the part should do, but imagine the engineering effort involved to do so. The economics likely just wouldn't work.
02-06-2015, 08:37 AM
#23
Race Director
I think the biggest issue is liability. Do you think I'm going to sell you a part that could possibly cause your brakes to fail? No way. They would have to cost $20k each to cover design costs and liability.
Last edited by Tonylmiller; 02-07-2015 at 11:56 AM.
02-06-2015, 10:33 AM
#24
I am guessing part of the problem here is that for some of these parts, GM just doesn't have the data to be able to put it into the public domain. If they outsourced the production to 3rd parties and those parties have gone out of business, the data may be lost. ............
Much of the EBCM -- the relaively massive body, etc,-- may in fact be perfectly reusable and have a several-decades-long useful life. Tadge could probably say whether that's true or not.
But if it is true, and if what typically fails is an integrated circuit (IC or computer chip), or even the entire "control board" itself, now, THESE are "parts" that may very well be cost-effectively reproduced. However, in the case of the board and its component parts --- again, especially the absolutely critical IC -- it is necssary to know the exact output specifications. And, once again with feeling, GM may very well know (or, perhpas even more importantly, could direct someone who wants this informations to exactly WHO would know) what those specifications are.
Once again with feeling, I believe that this "ask Tadge" forum is THE PEFECT time and place to ask these questions and quite possibly get those important specifications .............. or at least get GM's permission and assistance in acquriing them so that these failed EBCMs might be repaired.
This isn't too much to ask of the most important GM engineer of them all on a Covette forum....... is it?
02-06-2015, 02:56 PM
#25
This (liability) is a very important, perfectly-valid point. But I think that the repair "angle", as opposed to the "OEM replacement part", for all practical purposes, eliminates GM's potential liabiity. For example, if GM were to merely supply the output specifications of the board on the EBCM, or, for that matter, the specifications of an IC or a capacitor, etc., would this cause great liability issues because a third party "used" those specifications to repair the EBCM? GM could even provide a legal disclaimer/warning with the specifications ----- you know, the old "don't squeeze the gasoline-nozzle valve until the nozzle is inserted in the gas filler tube of your vehicle" kind of warning. Anyway, I think the liability issue can be intelligently overcome, so that those who want to repair the EBCM can do so and GM will be safe from lawsuit. After all, vehicles are repaired/rebuilt/modified/you-name-it by their owners, using GM specifications, without legal ramifications for GM.
02-06-2015, 03:17 PM
#26
02-06-2015, 04:43 PM
#27
Melting Slicks
I agree. Good or bad, if that is reality, it may go a long way in explaining, to put it as gently as possible, "what has happened" to GM in the very last part of the 20th, and in the first 14 years of the 21st, centuries up to today (when, believe it or not, a bone-simple ignition switch is causing the "difficulty" that it is).
I think the goal of recreating the entire EBCM --a "plug and play" "part"-- may very well be beyond the realm of possibility for the very reasons you stated. However, I think the much more modest goal of replacing the components that fail within the EBCM is quite possibly not, which is why I think that my last two, so-far-unanswered, questions are valid and worthy of a separate addendum to Tadge's response to the overall parts issue.
Much of the EBCM -- the relaively massive body, etc,-- may in fact be perfectly reusable and have a several-decades-long useful life. Tadge could probably say whether that's true or not.
But if it is true, and if what typically fails is an integrated circuit (IC or computer chip), or even the entire "control board" itself, now, THESE are "parts" that may very well be cost-effectively reproduced. However, in the case of the board and its component parts --- again, especially the absolutely critical IC -- it is necssary to know the exact output specifications. And, once again with feeling, GM may very well know (or, perhpas even more importantly, could direct someone who wants this informations to exactly WHO would know) what those specifications are.
This is a very important, perfectly-valid point. But I think that the repair "angle", as opposed to the "OEM replacement part", for all practical purposes, eliminates GM's potential liabiity. For example, if GM were to merely supply the output specifications of the board on the EBCM, or, for that matter, the specifications of an IC or a capacitor, etc., would this cause great liability issues because a third party "used" those specifications to repair the EBCM? GM could even provide a legal disclaimer/warning with the specifications ----- you know, the old "don't squeeze the gasoline-nozzle valve until the nozzle is inserted in the gas filler tube of your vehicle" kind of warning. Anyway, I think the liability issue can be intelligently overcome, so that those who want to repair the EBCM can do so and GM will be safe from lawsuit. After all, vehicles are repaired/rebuilt/modified/you-name-it by their owners, using GM specifications, without legal ramifications for GM.
Once again with feeling, I believe that this "ask Tadge" forum is THE PEFECT time and place to ask these questions and quite possibly get those important specifications .............. or at least get GM's permission and assistance in acquriing them so that these failed EBCMs might be repaired.
This isn't too much to ask of the most important GM engineer of them all on a Covette forum....... is it?
I think the goal of recreating the entire EBCM --a "plug and play" "part"-- may very well be beyond the realm of possibility for the very reasons you stated. However, I think the much more modest goal of replacing the components that fail within the EBCM is quite possibly not, which is why I think that my last two, so-far-unanswered, questions are valid and worthy of a separate addendum to Tadge's response to the overall parts issue.
Much of the EBCM -- the relaively massive body, etc,-- may in fact be perfectly reusable and have a several-decades-long useful life. Tadge could probably say whether that's true or not.
But if it is true, and if what typically fails is an integrated circuit (IC or computer chip), or even the entire "control board" itself, now, THESE are "parts" that may very well be cost-effectively reproduced. However, in the case of the board and its component parts --- again, especially the absolutely critical IC -- it is necssary to know the exact output specifications. And, once again with feeling, GM may very well know (or, perhpas even more importantly, could direct someone who wants this informations to exactly WHO would know) what those specifications are.
This is a very important, perfectly-valid point. But I think that the repair "angle", as opposed to the "OEM replacement part", for all practical purposes, eliminates GM's potential liabiity. For example, if GM were to merely supply the output specifications of the board on the EBCM, or, for that matter, the specifications of an IC or a capacitor, etc., would this cause great liability issues because a third party "used" those specifications to repair the EBCM? GM could even provide a legal disclaimer/warning with the specifications ----- you know, the old "don't squeeze the gasoline-nozzle valve until the nozzle is inserted in the gas filler tube of your vehicle" kind of warning. Anyway, I think the liability issue can be intelligently overcome, so that those who want to repair the EBCM can do so and GM will be safe from lawsuit. After all, vehicles are repaired/rebuilt/modified/you-name-it by their owners, using GM specifications, without legal ramifications for GM.
Once again with feeling, I believe that this "ask Tadge" forum is THE PEFECT time and place to ask these questions and quite possibly get those important specifications .............. or at least get GM's permission and assistance in acquriing them so that these failed EBCMs might be repaired.
This isn't too much to ask of the most important GM engineer of them all on a Covette forum....... is it?
Maybe jvp will reconsider his position to allow Tadge to "shunt the voting process"; to present your two additional questions back to Tadge as a follow-up to the original question.
If not; present your questions back into the official poll questions and let the votes determine if the C5 community are looking for an answer. I for one will vote the question.
Dannyman
02-06-2015, 05:02 PM
#28
Tech Contributor
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"Ask Tadge" Producer
Read between the lines, please.
02-07-2015, 10:54 AM
#29
Melting Slicks
I guess I was lucky to get a new Steering Wheel Position Sensor on my C5 a few years back while there was still inventory. I feel bad for any current C5 owner not being able to replace theirs, because the DIC warnings are constant and annoying for that particular problem.
02-07-2015, 11:59 AM
#30
Race Director
02-07-2015, 12:02 PM
#31
Race Director
All of the specs and drawings are moot at this point. It comes down to profits and no one is going to accept the potential liability of making these parts.
02-07-2015, 12:11 PM
#32
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: South Western Ontario
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I fully expected that answer.
The construction technique makes the control board EXTREMELY difficult to repair. You simply don't understand the construction if you are still asking why components can't just be replaced.
I'm sure GM would supply the data, but expect to be a ligitimate company and sign a NDA first before getting the data.
The construction technique makes the control board EXTREMELY difficult to repair. You simply don't understand the construction if you are still asking why components can't just be replaced.
I'm sure GM would supply the data, but expect to be a ligitimate company and sign a NDA first before getting the data.
02-07-2015, 07:16 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
Wow. Thanks for answering tadge.
I had a C5 zo6 and had the abs issue way back. Good thing they had the parts then. This goes to show that electronics in cars will be the death of todays cars becoming classic cars. The answer I basically took from it was you gotta buy a new corvette. This really sucks because their are probably more C5 cars turn into race cars than any other model. Good cars. Some electronics geek could make alot of money coming up with a repair service for these types of components. Would take a investment.
I had a C5 zo6 and had the abs issue way back. Good thing they had the parts then. This goes to show that electronics in cars will be the death of todays cars becoming classic cars. The answer I basically took from it was you gotta buy a new corvette. This really sucks because their are probably more C5 cars turn into race cars than any other model. Good cars. Some electronics geek could make alot of money coming up with a repair service for these types of components. Would take a investment.
I know this is not a C5 -- But I had an ABS module go out on my 2000 blazer zr2 -- the choice was to buy a new one from GM for 500 or 600 bucks or send it to a small outfit in Atlanta. they fixed the one , that came with the SUV to better then new for 100 bucks. this repair outfit told me there were some design flaws in the original equipment ABS module they corrected in their rebuild.
http://www.myairbags.com/abs.php = this is the site. Airbag modules, abs modules repaired. they list 2000 to 2007 corvettes
Last edited by Mr. Gizmo; 02-07-2015 at 07:35 PM.
02-07-2015, 07:31 PM
#34
Le Mans Master
Sounds like aftermarket suppliers are going to have quite a lonely, perhaps impossible row to hoe if they attempt to manufacture a compatible EBCM.
Quite obviously, the one thing that C5 owners can now be absolutely certain of is that, as far as GM is concerned, the parts that GM has discontinued, and in the future will discontinue, will remain discontinued.
Period.
The End.
People who are considering buying a C5, especially a '97 to 2000 C5, should keep this sobering reality in mind as they look at these stunning, "like new" vehicles.
Quite obviously, the one thing that C5 owners can now be absolutely certain of is that, as far as GM is concerned, the parts that GM has discontinued, and in the future will discontinue, will remain discontinued.
Period.
The End.
People who are considering buying a C5, especially a '97 to 2000 C5, should keep this sobering reality in mind as they look at these stunning, "like new" vehicles.
02-07-2015, 08:01 PM
#35
This should be a lesson to any vehicle engineer to design the car to operate so that the driver can control the vehicle as safely a possible without the computer aids. We don't want to be driving a stealth bomber, which as I understand, cannot be flown without computer aided controls.
Chassis computer-aided controls are relatively new compared to engine control computers. I have been driving cars with electronic engine controls a lot longer than I have cars with ABS and traction controls. Maybe we will have to be more easy on the gas and brake pedals while ignoring the stupid warning lights.
Chassis computer-aided controls are relatively new compared to engine control computers. I have been driving cars with electronic engine controls a lot longer than I have cars with ABS and traction controls. Maybe we will have to be more easy on the gas and brake pedals while ignoring the stupid warning lights.
02-08-2015, 11:09 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
For many other old cars, loyal owners are figuring out ways to make new/improved electrical parts. Release the specifications of the faulty parts and I'm sure some loyal owner/electrical engineer will figure out how to fix or work around the issues. After some 15+ years since its development, I wouldn't think any proprietary software/secrets would still be an issue.
On a side note, to compare a broken microwave and stereo receiver to a $50,000 car is funny.
On a side note, to compare a broken microwave and stereo receiver to a $50,000 car is funny.
02-09-2015, 09:46 AM
#38
Can't believe people are still 
on this subject.
Car manufacturers are in the business of selling NEW CARS. There is little for them in keeping loads of old parts warehoused somewhere for decades. As was said before, most consumer products usually die because of lack of parts or the parts cost more than a replacement of the entire device. Why should cars be any different. If you want a car you'll alway be able to get drivetrain parts for, get a c1, 2 or 3 or get ready to try to find used parts till the supply finally dries up.
on this subject. Car manufacturers are in the business of selling NEW CARS. There is little for them in keeping loads of old parts warehoused somewhere for decades. As was said before, most consumer products usually die because of lack of parts or the parts cost more than a replacement of the entire device. Why should cars be any different. If you want a car you'll alway be able to get drivetrain parts for, get a c1, 2 or 3 or get ready to try to find used parts till the supply finally dries up.
02-09-2015, 10:26 AM
#39
02-10-2015, 05:46 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
Can't believe people are still on this subject.
Car manufacturers are in the business of selling NEW CARS. There is little for them in keeping loads of old parts warehoused somewhere for decades. As was said before, most consumer products usually die because of lack of parts or the parts cost more than a replacement of the entire device. Why should cars be any different. If you want a car you'll alway be able to get drivetrain parts for, get a c1, 2 or 3 or get ready to try to find used parts till the supply finally dries up.
on this subject. Car manufacturers are in the business of selling NEW CARS. There is little for them in keeping loads of old parts warehoused somewhere for decades. As was said before, most consumer products usually die because of lack of parts or the parts cost more than a replacement of the entire device. Why should cars be any different. If you want a car you'll alway be able to get drivetrain parts for, get a c1, 2 or 3 or get ready to try to find used parts till the supply finally dries up.
Porsche does:
Let me go get my flame suit now for comparing Porsche to GM/Corvette
I read that, but he also spent most of his 1st paragraph using electrical appliance examples to build up his "you're SOL" response...
Last edited by onspeed; 02-10-2015 at 05:49 PM.