LT1 Z51

You think this is bad now?

How about when your Electronic Power Steering goes out? That's what he means by "special part" they are going to stock pile.

In all honesty the parts they 100% need to keep extra of are:

ABS Modules (EBCM - Electronic Brake Control Module in GM Speak)
ECM/PCM (The Engine Controller)
EPS (PSCM - Power Steering Control Module in GM Speak)
MagneRide (both the Shocks and the ECU that controls them)
Airbag modules and parts

These are CORE Chassis and Powertrain components, and frankly the car can't work without them or the sensors that they use. It's not like a Radio or the HUD which you can live without.

They probably need to add things like the Cluster on the C7 which is also electronic, but someone could "remanufacture" that much easier, assuming they had access to the programming software.

crimlwC6

KISS
Drive without abs and traction control.

Choreo

In all honesty (though not an exclusive problem tied to the Corvette or C5), this is at the root of why I have not purchased a new vehicle of any kind now in 15 years.

Up until 15 years ago when I bought my 2001 C5, I purchased a NEW car every 3-4 years (including 9 new Corvettes). Since I always bought new cars, parts availability was never a concern to me. The C5 was the first Corvette I bought where I felt up front that I would want to keep, maintain and drive it the rest of my life and continue to purchase other new cars (including newer Corvettes) as second vehicles along the way.

Once I ended up keeping the C5 past the warranty period (first time ever in my life) I saw things in a whole new light. I have been shopping for a new car for over a year now and looked at just about everything out there and all I see are a bunch of unnecessary dated electronics on wheels waiting to fail and just cannot bring myself to buy anything "nice" again. Even the Jeep Cherokee advertises "Starting at $22k", yet the one in their showroom sells for nearly 40k! $18,000 worth of electronic add-on crap that all I see as not being able to replace after the warranty runs out!

All I can say is that I owned lots of NEW C3s, C4s and a C5, but mainly due to this parts issue I did not buy a new C6 nor will I be buying a C7 or any other new Corvette in the future it appears. I "may" not be buying "any" more new cars and if I do it will be something cheap with the longest warranty I can find (and GM's 3 year/36k mile warranty speaks volumes as to their confidence in their product). The best advertising that GM had for selling new Corvettes is the number of older Corvettes still on the road every day that "look" new. People are still shocked every time I stop in my C5 - I get asked almost daily, "Is that the new Corvette?" When I tell them "No, I have been driving this every day for 15 years", they just look in disbelief! I have had a number of people say "I had no idea that Corvettes could last that long and look like that, maybe I should look at one again". I can't even count how many new Corvettes I have sold in my lifetime - more than probably any Corvette salesman!

I too have tons of non-automotive electronic crap around the house that I cannot get fixed due to a $10 repair part being obsolete. I have a $14k Xerox color laser that is a boat anchor due to a $15 part that no longer exists. That 5¢ per page they advertised when I bought it ended up costing me about $10/page before it crapped out - hence I no longer buy color printers!

I have been fairly lucky with my C5 so far, but I have read the horror stories and know what I am probably looking forward to. It is amazing that I would have more luck restoring a 30 year old car than a 15 year old C5.

Tony1M

I feel exactly the same way, only I've never owned a Corvette of any kind.

My problem is that the C5 is the only generation I fit in, otherwise my wife and I would buy an earlier Vette that we could keep driving till we are too old and decrepit to drive............... then sell it to someone who can.

HyperX

As long as the electronic in question does not take massive amount of current or is solid state, it can last forever. I am in IT and I have this one server in my server room that has been running since 1997 - i am just running it to see how long it can go. The power supply went out a few years ago - but believe it or not, it is still running same hard drive doing a math compilation on an old version of linux. I am sure it will run another 10 years - and the only parts that I will replace are power supply and hard drive.

3boystoys

I see computers fail all the time, and the environment in a car it many times worse than a Datacenter. I have plenty of old computers/servers around still spinning but they rarely do they have to move around at highway speeds and make panic stops, bake in the sun and freeze in the winter for 10+ years.

The real problem is GM probably farmed much of this out and may have the specs but I'm guessing a lot of the circuitry will be hard to source and may be custom for this application made by outside vendors. Even if GM dumped all the technical specs for these, making new ones will be quite expensive and since there are several versions, which ones do you even try to make?

HyperX

Its always same things that fail in a computer - power supply, or hard drive. Sometimes heat causes chips to fail - but if you have proper cooling (best is without fans that break) they last and last.

Having said that - don't companies like Motor Works make all the parts? I remember going through a tour in Effingham, Il and I remember the guy there said you can build all the old corvettes with the parts they sell. Their catalog is huge and lists a ton of little parts.

And finally - can you use a different part? Like a modern part in an old car and somehow interface it? Maybe that is where the simplicity will come in. Make a new modern part with a middleware interface to the old computer?

3boystoys

Mid America Motorworks does NOT have all the parts for all Vettes. If you have a c1, 2 or 3 and some C4's they have a lot of parts. Last I checked they didn't even have interior door panels for the C5 much less something COMPLICATED like an EBCM.

Unless you have the custom programming that the original modules used, even trying to build an interface to the C5's would be quite a challenge.

HyperX

That really sucks. Can you by pass some of these parts completely and make them manual or replace them with C6 components - all the way through? Is that even possible?

I can see how this could be a huge issue for C5s and all corvettes moving forward.

Some of these components that fail - do we know what fails in them? Is it corrosion or is it a specific component that wears out?

3boystoys

Search here or on Google if you want, but people have been whining about this issue for many years now. If your read this entire thread, GM even offered to release the info but couldn't find any takers to reproduce these parts. Many of the parts are not off the shelf and getting anyone to reproduce complex brake parts and the liability that goes along with that would be near impossible.

Tony1M

Much of the EBCM might very well be perfectly reusable. For example, why recreate the whole thing if it's just a board inside that's failed?

I think the most important thing GM could do for owners is simply post on SOME website the input/output and pinout specifications for boards inside the 1997 - 2000 EBCMs. "For for EBCM model xxxxx, these are the specifications. For EBCM model Zxxxxx, these are the specifications." Etc. I think there would be plenty of "takers" on this website.

GM should just publish these specifications along with a "this is being published for information purposes only. Do not use these specifications to repair your EBCM", or some other CYA warning.

THEN entrepreneurs, and perhaps even individual owners, can at least have a shot at how to use those specifications most effectively.

Is anyone on this forum actually AGAINST GM publishing those specifications?

enoniam

As an electronics engineer who works on updating and keeping systems working for the Navy I would love to see this stuff released to the public.

Tony1M

Well, there is at least one "taker"!

dannyman

Add me! We're up to two "takers". Release the details.

There are more than a few electronics folks here that would love to solve a mystery!

Choreo

Some other issues caused by ignoring this shortage:

1. One of the big buying/selling points to having a Corvette traditionally has been its status a "collector" car (whether "classic" or not). Once all theses newer models are all sitting on blocks due to lack of parts availability after just a few years, that will make many people think twice about buying a new Corvette - as you will know up front it is only a short term expense rather than even a declining investment.
   
2. Many people rely on being able to sell or trade-in their existing Corvette to make or help make a down payment on a new Corvette. If you have a C5 that has an irreplaceable module go out its value could go from maybe $20k to zero overnight - no new Corvette sale after that!
   
3. Once more and more people start to catch on that all these newer over-priced vehicles cannot be repaired after a few years they will stop buying new high-end models and start looking for cheaper stripped-down vehicles that have more lifespan. I never thought I would own a car that I could not get a critical part for - especially a C5 where they keep touting how many were produced!

Of course the problems are well known... the "solutions" are what need to be focused on. If GM says there is nothing they can do (and maybe they are right), then only an idiot with more money than brains would buy a new Corvette. That puts Corvette up there with Ferrari-class as a rich man's toy only to be consumed and discarded quickly. That seems to be where things are headed?

LT1 Z51

The problem is typically with Chassis components.

To be honest most people who work in Chassis don't understand electronics. This is LESS true now than it was 20 years ago, as people have learned after being exposed to them and Electronics knowledge of Mechanical Engineering students (and therefore Engineers) has increased.

In the "old days" aka the 90's, a lot of technology was used in the "underhood" area of the car that wasn't sufficiently designed properly to handle the thermal and or durability cycles of automobiles. This wasn't out of malice, but due to a lack of experience with electronics of Mechanical Engineers (and a lack of "underhood" knowledge by Electrical and Computer Engineers) many "issues" were not thought of. So certain types of electronic components were used that may have not been the best design choice for the application.

Of course over time we have gotten better at this. Brake (EBCM/ABS/ESC) Modules today are nearly bullet proof. Look at ECM/PCM modules they have 10 more years of experience than ABS (being from the 80's not the 90's). The two components that have the least amount of exposure are Adjustable Suspension (including MagnaRide) which is from the 00's and Electronic Power Steering from the current decade (it's the youngest). EPS, while used in the 00's, was mostly of the Column variety which lives in the passenger compartment. Today's system are typically of the Rack variety which lives underhood (and therefore is subject to harsher temperatures and durability needs to be higher).

So while on C5's you had EBCM issues, on C6's you will see MagnaRide issues (both of the shocks and the ECU) before you see EBCM issues, and on the C7 your #1 failure in 10 years will be the EPS. Now knowing what we know, makes each new technology have less teething issues than the last. But the EPS is by FAR the most complex component in a non-hybrid car. It contains a 3 AC phase motor (that's the same technology used in a Traction Motor in a Hybrid) with an ECU mounted on the motor, and this "Power Pack" (as we call it in the industry) is mounted on the Steering Gear (and in the case of the Corvette is uses a Recirculating Ball Nut with a Belt to transfer the Motor energy to the Rack Bar). So there are many "new" things that could fail (both mechanically and electrically).

But as someone above stated, the issue isn't things breaking, the issue is getting infrastructure in place to support FIXING these parts.

3boystoys

And I'm betting the cost to keep that stuff working is quite high.

lionelhutz

Seriously....

You think pinout specifications would allow you to make a new one???? The complexity is in the internal programming.

You think you could use most of the module and just replace the circuit board????? The circuit board is the part that would be extremely costly to re-create.

enoniam

yes, it is

enoniam

One would certainly need more than simply a truncated signal ID associated with each active pin. I'd hope if design info were to be released by GM or its supplier we'd get a lot more than that because you are absolutely right that the complexity is in the internal programming.

The BIG problem that is probably causing us grief today is that the part(s) with internal programming are probably obsolete and no longer available. The circuit boards probably need to be redesigned around parts that are currently available and projected to be available for a reasonable period into the future. It's a constant problem with military electronics. We've got boxes running Intel 486 processors which we can't buy more of so we redesign around PowerPC or other processors.

As to whether economically it makes sense, at this point who knows? We know folks are getting $2500 for working EBCMs for the early C5s so we know there's a market at that price point but it probably won't be a very big market at that price. Cut that price by 70% and the market may well triple (or more), but just how large are these markets?