[ANSWERED] GM encouragement for C5 aftermarket parts
02-04-2015, 03:30 PM
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[ANSWERED] GM encouragement for C5 aftermarket parts
Original question is here.
jdvann asked
By now everyone knows there are some critical components that are now unavailable for the 97-2000 model cars, specifically the EBCTM(Brake Control Module) and the Steering Wheel Position Sensor. Is there anything GM can do to make a run of these rare parts? Or convince someone in the aftermarket too? One other option to explore here is to provide a way to update the obsolete components to the newer system?
Thanks in advance.
By now everyone knows there are some critical components that are now unavailable for the 97-2000 model cars, specifically the EBCTM(Brake Control Module) and the Steering Wheel Position Sensor. Is there anything GM can do to make a run of these rare parts? Or convince someone in the aftermarket too? One other option to explore here is to provide a way to update the obsolete components to the newer system?
Thanks in advance.
Tadge answered
I have been personally involved with a number of customers (and GM employee owners - no, there is no special stash of parts we keep for ourselves!) and the challenges they have had finding replacement parts, particularly electronic components. The auto industry is unusual compared to most consumer products in that we have longer warranties and maintain replacement part inventories far, far longer than other products. My home is filled with products I have loved but are rendered useless because I can't get a replacement part. I have an expensive Canon SLR camera that doesn't work because the power switch broke and is unavailable. My beloved stereo receiver sits useless in the basement because the transformer blew and I can't get another. Ditto a 5 year old computer, a 2 year old microwave oven and lots of other stuff! I know this doesn't compare to a Corvette, but I have great empathy for folks trying to keep their cars in perfect working order and understand how frustrating it can be when one small part can't be replaced.
As a company we attempt to maintain parts availability for 10 years after the last production use of a particular part. So as a car goes out of production, our service department looks to see which parts will continue in production vs which will no longer be used by other cars. For those that are going out of production, based on our replacement history, an estimate is made on what the ongoing demand will be for that part. We try to be conservative and err on the side of a bigger inventory. We then make a "lifetime buy" of those components to stockpile in inventory. GM pays for all of the parts upfront, then pays for individual packaging and the warehousing costs until all the parts are sold. For many parts the inventory is never sold out and it is a big loss for us. That is why we can't afford to buy 20, 30 or more years of inventory. Also, parts deteriorate with time even when properly stored so they have a finite "shelf life" and eventually have to be scrapped. Sometimes the demand for the parts exceeds our estimate and the inventory is depleted in less than our 10 year goal. Some people, realizing a part is becoming scarce, will buy up our inventory of parts hoping to resell them at exorbitant prices.
I know some of the C5 electronic components are very scarce. I have personally inquired as to what it would take to do another production run to supply the market. We, GM, are more than willing to share the technical information we own to enable any willing supplier to go into the business of producing those parts. For electronics, which evolve very fast, this turns out to be impossible. No one makes some of the individual components anymore, the supplier with the knowledge of how to do it has gone out of business. Even if they were in business, the parts were made on expensive machinery that is no longer available controlled by software written in a language no one uses today. The startup costs to recreate a 1990's electronics assembly process would be astronomical and there would be no way to recoup those costs through the resulting parts sales (each part would have to cost more than the car is worth). So, no, we haven't been able to convince anyone in the aftermarket to take it on.
OK, why don't we engineer new solutions that use modern components to solve the problem? Well, that too would be enormously expensive and filled with uncertainty. We have our hands full engineering cars that work well for years with all new parts. Re-engineering a new part to be compatible with a variety of old parts in unknown conditions would be unreliable and economically impractical. Also, where do we draw the line? Should we stop at C5? Or should we go back to C4? C3? There are few engineers and little documentation still existing that would give us a starting point for such an effort. We count on the aftermarket to supply vintage parts. Where there is a good market opportunity, you see a healthy supply, where the economics are nonviable, the parts get scarce. I have many friends in the Corvette community who are facing this challenge. Trust me, If I could do something to fix it I would have already done it.
The one good thing that has come out for this experience on Corvette is that, going forward, we are going to take a closer look at parts that are hard to replicate and a have long shelf life. For those special parts, we will plan for a longer inventory horizon than 10 years.
Tadge
I have been personally involved with a number of customers (and GM employee owners - no, there is no special stash of parts we keep for ourselves!) and the challenges they have had finding replacement parts, particularly electronic components. The auto industry is unusual compared to most consumer products in that we have longer warranties and maintain replacement part inventories far, far longer than other products. My home is filled with products I have loved but are rendered useless because I can't get a replacement part. I have an expensive Canon SLR camera that doesn't work because the power switch broke and is unavailable. My beloved stereo receiver sits useless in the basement because the transformer blew and I can't get another. Ditto a 5 year old computer, a 2 year old microwave oven and lots of other stuff! I know this doesn't compare to a Corvette, but I have great empathy for folks trying to keep their cars in perfect working order and understand how frustrating it can be when one small part can't be replaced.
As a company we attempt to maintain parts availability for 10 years after the last production use of a particular part. So as a car goes out of production, our service department looks to see which parts will continue in production vs which will no longer be used by other cars. For those that are going out of production, based on our replacement history, an estimate is made on what the ongoing demand will be for that part. We try to be conservative and err on the side of a bigger inventory. We then make a "lifetime buy" of those components to stockpile in inventory. GM pays for all of the parts upfront, then pays for individual packaging and the warehousing costs until all the parts are sold. For many parts the inventory is never sold out and it is a big loss for us. That is why we can't afford to buy 20, 30 or more years of inventory. Also, parts deteriorate with time even when properly stored so they have a finite "shelf life" and eventually have to be scrapped. Sometimes the demand for the parts exceeds our estimate and the inventory is depleted in less than our 10 year goal. Some people, realizing a part is becoming scarce, will buy up our inventory of parts hoping to resell them at exorbitant prices.
I know some of the C5 electronic components are very scarce. I have personally inquired as to what it would take to do another production run to supply the market. We, GM, are more than willing to share the technical information we own to enable any willing supplier to go into the business of producing those parts. For electronics, which evolve very fast, this turns out to be impossible. No one makes some of the individual components anymore, the supplier with the knowledge of how to do it has gone out of business. Even if they were in business, the parts were made on expensive machinery that is no longer available controlled by software written in a language no one uses today. The startup costs to recreate a 1990's electronics assembly process would be astronomical and there would be no way to recoup those costs through the resulting parts sales (each part would have to cost more than the car is worth). So, no, we haven't been able to convince anyone in the aftermarket to take it on.
OK, why don't we engineer new solutions that use modern components to solve the problem? Well, that too would be enormously expensive and filled with uncertainty. We have our hands full engineering cars that work well for years with all new parts. Re-engineering a new part to be compatible with a variety of old parts in unknown conditions would be unreliable and economically impractical. Also, where do we draw the line? Should we stop at C5? Or should we go back to C4? C3? There are few engineers and little documentation still existing that would give us a starting point for such an effort. We count on the aftermarket to supply vintage parts. Where there is a good market opportunity, you see a healthy supply, where the economics are nonviable, the parts get scarce. I have many friends in the Corvette community who are facing this challenge. Trust me, If I could do something to fix it I would have already done it.
The one good thing that has come out for this experience on Corvette is that, going forward, we are going to take a closer look at parts that are hard to replicate and a have long shelf life. For those special parts, we will plan for a longer inventory horizon than 10 years.
Tadge
Last edited by jvp; 02-04-2015 at 05:27 PM.
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Gianna66 (03-04-2024)
02-04-2015, 07:09 PM
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Gianna66 (03-04-2024)
02-04-2015, 08:17 PM
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appreciate the response but nothing we didn't already know.
02-04-2015, 09:13 PM
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I can understand the reasons presented in Tadge's response, but that sure does leave a lot of C5 owners in a tough situation. But thanks to him for taking the time to respond.
02-04-2015, 09:13 PM
#6
Sounds like aftermarket suppliers are going to have quite a lonely, perhaps impossible row to hoe if they attempt to manufacture a compatible EBCM.
Quite obviously, the one thing that C5 owners can now be absolutely certain of is that, as far as GM is concerned, the parts that GM has discontinued, and in the future will discontinue, will remain discontinued.
Period.
The End.
People who are considering buying a C5, especially a '97 to 2000 C5, should keep this sobering reality in mind as they look at these stunning, "like new" vehicles.
Quite obviously, the one thing that C5 owners can now be absolutely certain of is that, as far as GM is concerned, the parts that GM has discontinued, and in the future will discontinue, will remain discontinued.
Period.
The End.
People who are considering buying a C5, especially a '97 to 2000 C5, should keep this sobering reality in mind as they look at these stunning, "like new" vehicles.
02-05-2015, 08:47 AM
#7
Racer
Wow, the truth hurts. Hopefully I will be one of the lucky ones that does not experience the failure. Does make a big difference in resale value, having ABS and Traction Control or not.
02-05-2015, 09:37 AM
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Platinum Supporting Dealership
What about repairing the faulty electronics? From talking to some folks behind the COPO Camaro ECM calibration I understand a large part preventing anyone from repairing these modules is the inability to communicate/program them.
It appears that the efforts to repair these modules are more from individuals rather than a large business or corporation with more financial backing. The cost is too high for these people to go any further with it (research, trial and error, creating programs/software, etc...).
Assuming it's possible, I think it would be good PR for Chevrolet to step it up and team up with other companies to create a solution to repairing these faulty modules or even disabling the trouble codes associated with these internal module failures. GM offered to restore the Corvettes that fell into the sinkhole, what's in it for them? Publicity. Imagine what the Corvette loyalists would think if Chevrolet assisted in this matter.
*Edit*
Direct from Tadge's first answered thread:
"Also, I can assure you that we do not design any product to just live through the warranty period. We do our best to design vehicles that last as long as practical. We know some Corvettes have been on the road for over 60 years, and we would like the cars we are building today to be driving around in 2075!".
With what was said above, I do believe that Chevrolet should extend their 10 year goal of stockpiling parts for out of production vehicles/parts. Especially if they want these cars driving around for 60 years!!
We aren't talking about a mass produced Malibu, Cruze, Equinox, toaster, microwave oven, personal computer etc... where one day they will be disposed of. We are talking about Chevrolet's flagship vehicle, a collector's car. The one car that has evolved from one generation to the next and was the start to Chevrolet's small block V8.
It appears that the efforts to repair these modules are more from individuals rather than a large business or corporation with more financial backing. The cost is too high for these people to go any further with it (research, trial and error, creating programs/software, etc...).
Assuming it's possible, I think it would be good PR for Chevrolet to step it up and team up with other companies to create a solution to repairing these faulty modules or even disabling the trouble codes associated with these internal module failures. GM offered to restore the Corvettes that fell into the sinkhole, what's in it for them? Publicity. Imagine what the Corvette loyalists would think if Chevrolet assisted in this matter.
*Edit*
Direct from Tadge's first answered thread:
"Also, I can assure you that we do not design any product to just live through the warranty period. We do our best to design vehicles that last as long as practical. We know some Corvettes have been on the road for over 60 years, and we would like the cars we are building today to be driving around in 2075!".
With what was said above, I do believe that Chevrolet should extend their 10 year goal of stockpiling parts for out of production vehicles/parts. Especially if they want these cars driving around for 60 years!!
We aren't talking about a mass produced Malibu, Cruze, Equinox, toaster, microwave oven, personal computer etc... where one day they will be disposed of. We are talking about Chevrolet's flagship vehicle, a collector's car. The one car that has evolved from one generation to the next and was the start to Chevrolet's small block V8.
Last edited by Nate@VanBortelChevy; 02-05-2015 at 09:57 AM.
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Gianna66 (03-04-2024)
02-05-2015, 10:09 AM
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I've read many threads here about the unobtanium ECBM and SWPS. I would think GM would have much better statistics on failure rates than trying to guess from Internet rants.
Possibly a follow up:
What is the failure rate? How long should a current owner with working components expect to go before experiencing a failure? Is there any maintenance we can do to prolong function? When/if it does fail, are there work arounds for disabling warnings and reduced performance modes? If I don't have active handling, should I even care about the SWPS?
Since GM buys a one time 10 year supply, they must have data for estimating the number of parts to order.
Possibly a follow up:
What is the failure rate? How long should a current owner with working components expect to go before experiencing a failure? Is there any maintenance we can do to prolong function? When/if it does fail, are there work arounds for disabling warnings and reduced performance modes? If I don't have active handling, should I even care about the SWPS?
Since GM buys a one time 10 year supply, they must have data for estimating the number of parts to order.
02-05-2015, 12:46 PM
#10
So, with that quote in mind, and because at this point there is nothing to lose and just possibly something to gained from this rare opportunity to "ask Tadge", specifically with regard to the EBCM, I propose two genuine engineering questions whose answers might be useful to someone who knows a helluva lot more about electronics than I do and (at the end of the line of falling dominos thus started) possibly help present C5 owners.
OTOH, I really don't know if GM actually designs the specific parts which it uses to assemble its vehicles. More specifically, does GM go much beyond telling a parts supplier "give us a part/system that does this", or does GM do all the drawings, etc., of all the individual component parts (even parts within a part) "in house" and give those to the parts suppliers?
Regardless, to the two questions.
1. Do you know which exact component or components on the '97 to '00 EBCM "board" are most likely to fail and, if so, what are the technical names and specifications of those components?
2. Would you provide the EBCM's electronic output specifications/characteristics to someone who asks for them and, if so, exactly how, and to exactly whom, should that request be made?
02-05-2015, 12:49 PM
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No one makes some of the individual components anymore, the supplier with the knowledge of how to do it has gone out of business. Even if they were in business, the parts were made on expensive machinery that is no longer available controlled by software written in a language no one uses today. The startup costs to recreate a 1990's electronics assembly process would be astronomical and there would be no way to recoup those costs through the resulting parts sales (each part would have to cost more than the car is worth). So, no, we haven't been able to convince anyone in the aftermarket to take it on.
02-05-2015, 01:17 PM
#12
Melting Slicks
The above immediately reminded me of a scene from the movie ........
Regardless, to the two questions.
1. Do you know which exact component or components on the '97 to '00 EBCM "board" are most likely to fail and, if so, what are the technical names and specifications of those components?
2. Would you provide the EBCM's electronic output specifications/characteristics to someone who asks for them and, if so, exactly how, and to exactly whom, should that request be made?
Regardless, to the two questions.
1. Do you know which exact component or components on the '97 to '00 EBCM "board" are most likely to fail and, if so, what are the technical names and specifications of those components?
2. Would you provide the EBCM's electronic output specifications/characteristics to someone who asks for them and, if so, exactly how, and to exactly whom, should that request be made?
These are two questions I would like to see answered!
Can GM just make this information public knowledge, since it is outdated information anyway; as stated by Tadge.
And a question to jvp:
" Is it possible to direct these questions back to Tadge for follow-up; or should the C5 community have to re-submit these questions through the poll process?"
Dannyman
02-05-2015, 01:22 PM
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Tadge has told me that he'd be OK with shunting the "voting" process for follow-up questions, but I honestly think that you guys just aren't going to get answers you like in this case. So while I can respect and sympathize with your concerns and issues, I think you have to take Tadge's answer here as final.
02-05-2015, 01:25 PM
#14
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Tadge has told me that he'd be OK with shunting the "voting" process for follow-up questions, but I honestly think that you guys just aren't going to get answers you like in this case. So while I can respect and sympathize with your concerns and issues, I think you have to take Tadge's answer here as final.
I do believe that one day we will be able to recreate even the most complex objects as technology evolves. People can make firearms with a 3D printer, imagine all the car parts we will be able to make with similar technology.
02-05-2015, 01:29 PM
#15
02-05-2015, 01:33 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
Tadge has told me that he'd be OK with shunting the "voting" process for follow-up questions, but I honestly think that you guys just aren't going to get answers you like in this case. So while I can respect and sympathize with your concerns and issues, I think you have to take Tadge's answer here as final.
It would be nice to know if GM would make these drawings/specifications public knowledge or do they need to be locked into the vaults of an aftermarket developer/supplier?
02-05-2015, 03:50 PM
#17
Pro
Well, I guess we will not see any 'computer reliant cars' at the 2030 Barrett Jackson Auction. Electronic reliant vehicles are not 'investment opportunities'.
Drive 'em like you stole them and plan on replacing with a newer model every 5 - 7 years. They aint going to hit the 'sweet spot' and go up in value if you can't maintain them in running condition.
Al Engel, Save the Wave!
Drive 'em like you stole them and plan on replacing with a newer model every 5 - 7 years. They aint going to hit the 'sweet spot' and go up in value if you can't maintain them in running condition.
Al Engel, Save the Wave!
02-05-2015, 04:15 PM
#18
"I know some of the C5 electronic components are very scarce. I have personally inquired as to what it would take to do another production run to supply the market. We, GM, are more than willing to share the technical information we own to enable any willing supplier to go into the business of producing those parts."
(emphasis added)
02-05-2015, 07:10 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
From Tadge's reply:
"...We, GM, are more than willing to share the technical information we own to enable any willing supplier to go into the business of producing those parts."
"...We, GM, are more than willing to share the technical information we own to enable any willing supplier to go into the business of producing those parts."
Without a doubt, that would be the best (and probably the only) way to encourage an aftermarket solution.
IMHO, Anything else would be just rhetorics...
Sent from my DROID TURBO XT1254 using IB AutoGroup
02-05-2015, 07:32 PM
#20
Wow. Thanks for answering tadge.
I had a C5 zo6 and had the abs issue way back. Good thing they had the parts then. This goes to show that electronics in cars will be the death of todays cars becoming classic cars. The answer I basically took from it was you gotta buy a new corvette. This really sucks because their are probably more C5 cars turn into race cars than any other model. Good cars. Some electronics geek could make alot of money coming up with a repair service for these types of components. Would take a investment.
I had a C5 zo6 and had the abs issue way back. Good thing they had the parts then. This goes to show that electronics in cars will be the death of todays cars becoming classic cars. The answer I basically took from it was you gotta buy a new corvette. This really sucks because their are probably more C5 cars turn into race cars than any other model. Good cars. Some electronics geek could make alot of money coming up with a repair service for these types of components. Would take a investment.