[ANSWERED] C7 Z06 vs C6 ZR1 at Milford
03-24-2015, 12:22 AM
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[ANSWERED] C7 Z06 vs C6 ZR1 at Milford
Original question is here.
racerns asked:
The GM press release stated that the new Z06 (Z07) was a full second faster than the ZR1 on the 2.9 mile Milford course. There has been debate on this forum of the configuration of the ZR1 for that lap time comparison. Was it a PDE ZR1 equipped with the Sport Cup (1) ZPs or was the comparison done with a ZR1 equipped with the new Sport Cup 2 ZPs? Also, since the Sport Cup 2s were developed on the ZR1 can you give us some idea of the lap time improvements the ZR1 saw going from the Cup 1 to the Cup 2 tires? Thanks.
The GM press release stated that the new Z06 (Z07) was a full second faster than the ZR1 on the 2.9 mile Milford course. There has been debate on this forum of the configuration of the ZR1 for that lap time comparison. Was it a PDE ZR1 equipped with the Sport Cup (1) ZPs or was the comparison done with a ZR1 equipped with the new Sport Cup 2 ZPs? Also, since the Sport Cup 2s were developed on the ZR1 can you give us some idea of the lap time improvements the ZR1 saw going from the Cup 1 to the Cup 2 tires? Thanks.
Tadged answered:
For the second week in a row, the question gets heavily into the chassis development work done by Jim Mero, so he provided most of the answer:
Jim Mero adds:
First of all, the Cup2 tires were not developed on the ZR1. The only time the ZR1 had a C7 Z06 tire on it was during an early comparison test between Michelin and Pirelli competing for the Z06 factory fitment. Each manufacturer provide sample tires showcasing advanced technology to be evaluated. The winner of the “shootout” would get both the standard and track tire business. This work was done in September 2011 before we had running Z06 prototypes.
In the Summer of 2013, we finally were able to put together a running prototype with a “roughed in” chassis set up. In September of 2013, we then paired up with the Michelin development team for the first round of Cup2 tire rides. And in typical Michelin fashion they came out of the box with a stellar tire. The team was elated to learn that on this very first day of track work, the Z06 on the new Cup 2 tires beat the track record recorded by the ZR1 on Cup1 tires by 0.4 seconds. Usually it takes months of development to surpass your previous best, but it was achieved this time virtually “out of the box”.
The reference to the ZR1 was relative to the fastest lap it ever recorded during thousands of laps run on the Milford Road Course over 2.5 years (late 2010 through early 2013). Naturally we were very excited that the chassis, aero, and new tires were proving to work so well.
As the car and tires progressed over the course of the development of the Z06 that delta to the ZR1 increased to about 1.8 to 2 seconds. As the team started running full tanks of fuel, the laps at the end of the tank in the Z06/Z07 were very close to the fastest laps in the ZR1 given similar ambient and track conditions.
As the development of the Z06/Z07 progressed the question of the Cup2 tires on the ZR1 never entered our minds. We were deep into Z06/Z07 development. Working the car every waking moment that weather and conditions would allow. We did not have the time or reason to dig out a ZR1, track prep it, use up a set Cup2 tries to acquire data that really would have been of minimal use since the C7 Z06 was performing so well. Generally speaking, when we reference any performance metric, we will always use the stock set up as it was shipped from the factory at the time.
For the second week in a row, the question gets heavily into the chassis development work done by Jim Mero, so he provided most of the answer:
Jim Mero adds:
First of all, the Cup2 tires were not developed on the ZR1. The only time the ZR1 had a C7 Z06 tire on it was during an early comparison test between Michelin and Pirelli competing for the Z06 factory fitment. Each manufacturer provide sample tires showcasing advanced technology to be evaluated. The winner of the “shootout” would get both the standard and track tire business. This work was done in September 2011 before we had running Z06 prototypes.
In the Summer of 2013, we finally were able to put together a running prototype with a “roughed in” chassis set up. In September of 2013, we then paired up with the Michelin development team for the first round of Cup2 tire rides. And in typical Michelin fashion they came out of the box with a stellar tire. The team was elated to learn that on this very first day of track work, the Z06 on the new Cup 2 tires beat the track record recorded by the ZR1 on Cup1 tires by 0.4 seconds. Usually it takes months of development to surpass your previous best, but it was achieved this time virtually “out of the box”.
The reference to the ZR1 was relative to the fastest lap it ever recorded during thousands of laps run on the Milford Road Course over 2.5 years (late 2010 through early 2013). Naturally we were very excited that the chassis, aero, and new tires were proving to work so well.
As the car and tires progressed over the course of the development of the Z06 that delta to the ZR1 increased to about 1.8 to 2 seconds. As the team started running full tanks of fuel, the laps at the end of the tank in the Z06/Z07 were very close to the fastest laps in the ZR1 given similar ambient and track conditions.
As the development of the Z06/Z07 progressed the question of the Cup2 tires on the ZR1 never entered our minds. We were deep into Z06/Z07 development. Working the car every waking moment that weather and conditions would allow. We did not have the time or reason to dig out a ZR1, track prep it, use up a set Cup2 tries to acquire data that really would have been of minimal use since the C7 Z06 was performing so well. Generally speaking, when we reference any performance metric, we will always use the stock set up as it was shipped from the factory at the time.
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DoctorV8 (02-08-2016)
03-24-2015, 08:37 AM
#2
Melting Slicks
Thanks for the reply. This just show how you can't trust what you read in the media. I read in more than one location that Michelin used the ZR1 to develop the Cup 2 tires for the new Z06 (This may be true to some extent reading Jim's explination) and that GM did comparison testing at Milford with the ZR1 on Cup 2 tires. That one seems to be completely false. That false information was in more than 1 major publication.
Thanks jvp for setting this up.
Thanks jvp for setting this up.
Last edited by racerns; 03-24-2015 at 09:28 AM.
03-24-2015, 11:12 AM
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Thanks for the reply. This just show how you can't trust what you read in the media. I read in more than one location that Michelin used the ZR1 to develop the Cup 2 tires for the new Z06 (This may be true to some extent reading Jim's explination) and that GM did comparison testing at Milford with the ZR1 on Cup 2 tires. That one seems to be completely false. That false information was in more than 1 major publication.
Thanks jvp for setting this up.
Thanks jvp for setting this up.
Be that as it may, kudos again to Jim for a detailed explanation and clarification of their lack of interest in benchmarking a ZR1 with Cup2s - makes perfect sense.
What that means as far as the intrinsic difference between the two cars is, as always, open for speculation and debate.
03-24-2015, 01:08 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
Be that as it may, kudos again to Jim for a detailed explanation and clarification of their lack of interest in benchmarking a ZR1 with Cup2s - makes perfect sense. What that means as far as the intrinsic difference between the two cars is, as always, open for speculation and debate.
What that means as far as the intrinsic difference between the two cars is, as always, open for speculation and debate.
03-24-2015, 03:29 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
What would happen if they do head to head comparo with C7 z06/z07 and a ZR1 both on pilot cups 2 and zr1 ending being faster? Do you think some people would be ashamed of that? I would really like it. Before the c7 z06 came out, they used zr1 as a benchmark ALL the time! Why not now??
03-24-2015, 03:35 PM
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So you have to ask the question: why do that? They could just as easily turn around and shod the C7 Z06 with real racing slicks. In both cases: the car wouldn't be as-configured from the factory.
03-24-2015, 04:24 PM
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I say "bravo" to the GM team for answering these direct questions...when you hear what they say and think about it from a product development perspective it is very understanding why they did or didnt do what they did.
03-24-2015, 06:07 PM
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More Data
I received some further info from Jim, via Tadge:
Jim Mero adds:
Before we ever see the tires Michelin goes through an entire pre-screening process at their development site in Laurens, SC and they probably used a ZR1 for this. Their internal tests are conducted independent of our development process. The purpose of their pre-screening is to weed out tires that don’t perform as their analysis suggests. It is possible Pirelli went through a similar exercise as well. That could be where some of the media discussion came from.
Before we ever see the tires Michelin goes through an entire pre-screening process at their development site in Laurens, SC and they probably used a ZR1 for this. Their internal tests are conducted independent of our development process. The purpose of their pre-screening is to weed out tires that don’t perform as their analysis suggests. It is possible Pirelli went through a similar exercise as well. That could be where some of the media discussion came from.
03-24-2015, 06:29 PM
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I received some further info from Jim, via Tadge:
Before we ever see the tires Michelin goes through an entire pre-screening process at their development site in Laurens, SC and they probably used a ZR1 for this. Their internal tests are conducted independent of our development process. The purpose of their pre-screening is to weed out tires that don’t perform as their analysis suggests.
Before we ever see the tires Michelin goes through an entire pre-screening process at their development site in Laurens, SC and they probably used a ZR1 for this. Their internal tests are conducted independent of our development process. The purpose of their pre-screening is to weed out tires that don’t perform as their analysis suggests.
Needless to say then that the Cup2s likely showed a significant improvement over their predecessor on the ZR1 mule that Michelin used or they would not have allowed GM to sample it during the Z06's development. We can only speculate on how much of an improvement they yielded. Maybe it's time for an "Ask Michelin" forum!
03-24-2015, 08:04 PM
#10
Thanks Tadge and Jim. We need a ask Harlan and Jim section too. 
They are certainly providing facts that we never knew until now. Great section this is.
They are certainly providing facts that we never knew until now. Great section this is.
03-25-2015, 08:13 AM
#11
Race Director
Excellent and detailed explanation of the process ..
Thank you both Jim Mero and tadge.
The c7 z06 starting around 80 grand and running up around 105 loaded is dam impressive.
The c6 zR1 was cool too. The new c7 Z06 just ups the game a bit and of course at a slightly more relatively affordable price.
The efforts by the corvette engineering and marketing team are impressive.
My next corvette will be a c7 z06 A8. Love the lift off roof capability and the consistent performance of the A8.
Would prefer the control capability of putting the A8 in track mode so hopefully in the future the engineers will give us that capability much the same way we select competition mode active handling by pushing a button.
I understand that as the trans adaptive A8 sees driving in a track setting it converts itself to track mode. Just would be cool as an owner we could select that option as we select competition mode active handling on our c6 s....
Awesome forum and hats off to GM to actually communicate to its enthusiast base via this forum.
The changing world we live in is almost as impressive as the c7 z06 itself.
Thank you both Jim Mero and tadge.
The c7 z06 starting around 80 grand and running up around 105 loaded is dam impressive.
The c6 zR1 was cool too. The new c7 Z06 just ups the game a bit and of course at a slightly more relatively affordable price.
The efforts by the corvette engineering and marketing team are impressive.
My next corvette will be a c7 z06 A8. Love the lift off roof capability and the consistent performance of the A8.
Would prefer the control capability of putting the A8 in track mode so hopefully in the future the engineers will give us that capability much the same way we select competition mode active handling by pushing a button.
I understand that as the trans adaptive A8 sees driving in a track setting it converts itself to track mode. Just would be cool as an owner we could select that option as we select competition mode active handling on our c6 s....
Awesome forum and hats off to GM to actually communicate to its enthusiast base via this forum.
The changing world we live in is almost as impressive as the c7 z06 itself.
03-25-2015, 08:25 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
That is pretty much what I was thinking, that is why I was suprised when some of the reports said the GM had run the ZR1 on the same tires for comparison.
I agree there really was no reason for GM to do the comparison. Though I will say though, that the new PSS and Cup 2 tires are going to become the factory replacement tire for the ZR1. It already looks like the PS2 in ZR1 sizes is gone and I would bet the Cup 1s will follow soon.
I agree there really was no reason for GM to do the comparison. Though I will say though, that the new PSS and Cup 2 tires are going to become the factory replacement tire for the ZR1. It already looks like the PS2 in ZR1 sizes is gone and I would bet the Cup 1s will follow soon.
03-31-2015, 08:15 PM
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Burning Brakes
03-31-2015, 08:45 PM
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03-31-2015, 09:05 PM
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"As the car and tires progressed over the course of the development of the Z06 that delta to the ZR1 increased to about 1.8 to 2 seconds."
Do some of you think that the Cup 2 tires alone, would allow the ZR1 to be quicker than the Z06, given that large delta?
As much as I like the ZR1, that wouldn't happen--unless the ZR would be on full (soft compound) race slicks... My .02
Do some of you think that the Cup 2 tires alone, would allow the ZR1 to be quicker than the Z06, given that large delta?
As much as I like the ZR1, that wouldn't happen--unless the ZR would be on full (soft compound) race slicks... My .02
04-05-2015, 10:23 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
"As the car and tires progressed over the course of the development of the Z06 that delta to the ZR1 increased to about 1.8 to 2 seconds."
Do some of you think that the Cup 2 tires alone, would allow the ZR1 to be quicker than the Z06, given that large delta?
As much as I like the ZR1, that wouldn't happen--unless the ZR would be on full (soft compound) race slicks... My .02
Do some of you think that the Cup 2 tires alone, would allow the ZR1 to be quicker than the Z06, given that large delta?
As much as I like the ZR1, that wouldn't happen--unless the ZR would be on full (soft compound) race slicks... My .02