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RC000E asked: Could you explain the factors/considerations/compromises that are made in determing the final paint finish on a Corvette versus its competition? Is the "orange peel" intended for durability (clear mil thickness) and has a hand finish dealer option ever been considered, etc?
Tadge answered: Like most of the questions I get in this forum, the premise is that although people love their Corvettes, they can think of ways it could be better. Paint quality is a perfect example. First of all, Corvette paint has never been better. Even during the life of the C7 it has improved. We have reduced orange peel by 25% as measured by a Wave Scan. A Wave Scan is a certified measuring instrument the reads the spectrum of long and short waves. Analyzing the entire structure spectrum and evaluating the ratio of various structure sizes helps to explain the visual perception of the surface. We also have developed a new process for painting our Silver that produces a bright harmonious finish that accentuates the Corvette’s crisp lines. If you have not seen one in silver lately I would really encourage you to check it out, the car looks great and the color really pops. The entire Corvette Team is driven to make every Corvette we produce better than the one before it and our efforts at improving paint quality are just another example of that.
Unlike most other vehicles, Corvette owners scrutinize their cars from every angle and see it from very close range as they hand-wash their cars. As they should be, our customer's expectations are very high. We have benchmarked many premium cars and although paint quality varies quite a bit, we are solidly competitive. Yes, you can find some that are better, but you can also find many much worse. Although you mention orange peel specifically, there are many indicators of paint quality: scratches, debris in paint, swirls, drips, sags, thin spots, dry spray, color match, harmony, consistency of flake orientation and many others. We have to pay attention to all of them.
Orange peel is caused by many factors including: spray angles, temp and humidity, air pressures, flash off times, baking temperatures and how the solvent flashes off as the paint is flowing out. With the Corvette however there is another major factor not found on most other vehicles and that is our composite body. In fact Corvettes have had composite bodies since 1953. It is an awesome material for low mass, dent resistance, styling freedom and corrosion resistance. It does however, present challenges to paint. The surface is porous at a microscopic level and is non-conductive. Both of these make painting more difficult. The best way to get paint on a body panel is to use an electrostatic charge. Like most automotive paint shops, we use static electricity to attract the paint to the panels. When the panel is steel or aluminum, it is relatively easy. For composites we have to use what is called conductive prime. We first spray the panels with a primer that conducts electricity to help with the process. That same primer helps with the micro porosity issue too and so on many panels we actually spray 2 coats to help prep the surface for the color coat and the clear coat. It is a very involved process and it is made more complex by the variety of panel materials we use. Although most body panels are a form of fiberglass, we use more flexible materials to cover the front and rear bumpers and then use carbon fiber in strategic areas. Each material takes paint differently.
The question asks specifically about hand finishing. We already hand sand at many points in the process. Could it be made better with more? Yes, although vastly more resources and floor space would be required to execute a finish like the best custom paint shops. Bowling Green produces a car roughly every 3 minutes at the current line rate. You can imagine how tough it would be to replicate the finished achieved with hours of hand sanding for each car. Offering a premium finish has been considered before but has always been deemed impractical in a mass production facility. But as I say just about every week in this forum, we love to hear customer's requests so we can consider it in our forward planning.
Speaking of that, we have announced and have started construction of a new paint shop in Bowling Green. These major facilities have lead times even longer than that of a new car, so the decision to replace the facility was made years ago. The current shop is over 30 years old and is being replaced on the normal cadence to maintain our manufacturing infrastructure. Although the new shop won't come on-line until the fall of 2017, we have had significant input to its design to optimize it for painting the Corvette’s composite body. After we are done with construction, we believe we will have the finest possible paint shop for Corvette for the foreseeable future. After the new shop launches, we could highlight some of the changes we made and the new state of the art technology that will be in use. Remember our goal is to build a Corvette that will not only exceed your expectations, but one that requires no explanation. Our investment of 439 million dollars for our new paint shop is a strong example of our commitment.
I would like to recognize Chuck Valentini for his help in answering this question. He manages the paint shop in Bowling Green and works tirelessly to continuously improve Corvette paint. We owe much of the progress we have made to him.
Very nice response, hopefully folks in the forum can learn, as well as gain some tolerance, as a result. I asked the question with the intent of softening the scrutiny that sometimes exists over the Corvette finish (which I personally feel is generally unfounded). I think the answer proves that intense analysis goes into the finish, and every effort is made, within financial reason, to make it as good as possible. Many buyers seem to want 450k quality for 65k out the door.
Nice response but I have seen some really bad orange peel on C7's both at the dealer and on this forum. How is it possible that these left the factory ? Maybe they should slow the production rate out of the paint shop so these would be caught before too far along in the build process.
Cool info from Tadge! I learned something new about the car. I never knew about the static electricity needed for the paint to attract to.
I have to admit tho, I think Corvette production is too high. Had Chevy made 5k to 10k less units per year and upped the paint quality to Lexus, BMW, Audi standards, they'd increase the demand of the car and dealers wouldn't be taking losses on them now. I'm sure there are financial reasons behind the paint quality.
I find the paint quality acceptable when you consider the value of the Corvette (price for what you get). We all wish we had that thick and flat as glass clear coat like some other high end cars, but up goes the price and it actually increases the weight of the car too!
Cool info from Tadge! I learned something new about the car. I never knew about the static electricity needed for the paint to attract to.
I have to admit tho, I think Corvette production is too high. Had Chevy made 5k to 10k less units per year and upped the paint quality to Lexus, BMW, Audi standards, they'd increase the demand of the car and dealers wouldn't be taking losses on them now. I'm sure there are financial reasons behind the paint quality.
I find the paint quality acceptable when you consider the value of the Corvette (price for what you get). We all wish we had that thick and flat as glass clear coat like some other high end cars, but up goes the price and it actually increases the weight of the car too!
Can't speak to the others, but have you looked at a red BMW close up? Tons of orange peel actually. I don't consider their paint anything special.
Cool info from Tadge! I learned something new about the car. I never knew about the static electricity needed for the paint to attract to.
I have to admit tho, I think Corvette production is too high. Had Chevy made 5k to 10k less units per year and upped the paint quality to Lexus, BMW, Audi standards, they'd increase the demand of the car and dealers wouldn't be taking losses on them now. I'm sure there are financial reasons behind the paint quality.
I find the paint quality acceptable when you consider the value of the Corvette (price for what you get). We all wish we had that thick and flat as glass clear coat like some other high end cars, but up goes the price and it actually increases the weight of the car too!
This is the kind of post that really bothers me because it is based on assumption, not fact. The assumption is that these named imports (BMW/Audi/Lexus) have higher quality paint, I guess because they're imports. Of the 3 listed, Audi is clearly the best. BMW is not ONE bit better than Corvette, and in many cases, worse (go to a BMW dealer if you doubt me). As far as Lexus, my inlaws have bought Lexus only for years. Both of their cars (one 2013, one 2015) have orange peel. The 2013 I would say is a little better than my C7, the 2015 is HORRIBLE, literally ridiculous levels of orange peel.
Cool info from Tadge! I learned something new about the car. I never knew about the static electricity needed for the paint to attract to.
I have to admit tho, I think Corvette production is too high. Had Chevy made 5k to 10k less units per year and upped the paint quality to Lexus, BMW, Audi standards, they'd increase the demand of the car and dealers wouldn't be taking losses on them now. I'm sure there are financial reasons behind the paint quality.
I find the paint quality acceptable when you consider the value of the Corvette (price for what you get). We all wish we had that thick and flat as glass clear coat like some other high end cars, but up goes the price and it actually increases the weight of the car too!
There were 34,000 Corvettes built in 2015. If they cut the number by 10,000 units that would be 24,000 Corvettes. Assuming the average price of a Corvette is $65,000 (guessing/ballparking), that would be a loss of revenue of $650,000,000. Spreading that among the 24,000 Corvettes ($650,000,000 / 24,000) would mean an increased unit price of $27,083 per Corvette to make up for the loss of revenue. Obviously, it would be much cheaper for any owner who wished to, instead of paying $27K additional to GM for their Corvette, to simply purchase a custom paintjob of their choosing aftermarket.
Last edited by slickstick; 02-20-2016 at 04:03 PM.
Why not offer an extra cost option to spray more clear paint, thus allowing the end user to have their car colored sanded after delivery without fear of sanding through to the color coat?
I have recently seen both Porsche(GT3) and Ferrari(488) have orange peel levels that were not acceptable. Conversely I have seen a Long Beach Red ZO6 with a much better surface than either Porsche or Ferrari. A non aggressive paint correction by any top line detailer such as Esoteric is a very affordable way of achieving a paint surface far beyond normal manufacturer standards.
Can't speak to the others, but have you looked at a red BMW close up? Tons of orange peel actually. I don't consider their paint anything special.
I'm only speaking in general terms. BMW's paint jobs, in general, is superior than GM's. Again, a general term. Not every single BMW is going to come out of the factory the same, and not every Corvette is going to come out the same.
Originally Posted by jimmyb
This is the kind of post that really bothers me because it is based on assumption, not fact. The assumption is that these named imports (BMW/Audi/Lexus) have higher quality paint, I guess because they're imports. Of the 3 listed, Audi is clearly the best. BMW is not ONE bit better than Corvette, and in many cases, worse (go to a BMW dealer if you doubt me). As far as Lexus, my inlaws have bought Lexus only for years. Both of their cars (one 2013, one 2015) have orange peel. The 2013 I would say is a little better than my C7, the 2015 is HORRIBLE, literally ridiculous levels of orange peel.
Here's a brand new BMW i8 to prove the point:
I don't think you can argue that Audi, BMW and Lexus don't have a higher quality paint job than Corvette.
All paint jobs have orange peel to some degree. Orange peel isn't necessarily what defines a quality paint job, there are many other factors. But you see so many Corvette owners complaining about orange peel. Can GM put our a higher quality paint job? Yes. Other manufacturers do.
I handle hundreds of Corvettes per year. The paint jobs aren't half as bad as people make them out to be, but I have seen some inexcusable paint jobs leave the factory. No car should come out of the factory with paint so thin that you can see primer. No car should come out of the factory with an obvious paint run. No car should come out of the factory with noticeable DA swirls. No car should come out of the factory with pin ****** in the paint where they removed a spec of dirt or hair. There are all things I have seen and continue to see in brand new Corvettes.
There is a reason why Audi warranties against rust through for 12 years where Chevrolet does 6.
Originally Posted by slickstick
There were 34,000 Corvettes built in 2015. If they cut the number by 10,000 units that would be 24,000 Corvettes. Assuming the average price of a Corvette is $65,000 (guessing/ballparking), that would be a loss of revenue of $650,000,000. Spreading that among the 24,000 Corvettes ($650,000,000 / 24,000) would mean an increased unit price of $27,083 per Corvette to make up for the loss of revenue. Obviously, it would be much cheaper for any owner who wished to, instead of paying $27K additional to GM for their Corvette, to simply purchase a custom paintjob of their choosing aftermarket.
You're missing the point.
Tadge had mentioned that part of the reason why the paint quality is where it is, is due to 1 car being produced every 4 minutes. They can't spend any more time on paint. If production were down they could.
And what good is it for GM to produce 40k Corvettes per year if dealers are over saturated with them? Dealers are taking a loss on new Corvettes now, yes a loss. 12% off MSRP is less than what a dealer nets on the car. Less than the cost even with hold-back included. Supply is too great for the demand.
Reducing the supply can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. - Increase paint quality and, - keep the demand high
When did the new process for silver go into effect? I have been shopping C7s and some of the 2014s have noticeable blotchiness. Did it happen for the 2015s or new 2016s only? It's between white and silver for me.
Reducing the supply can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. - Increase paint quality and, - keep the demand high
The implications of "slowing down" production, of a machine (I speak of the Corvette "brand) this large, already in motion...the consequences are monumental...detrimental even.
I believe they are moving toward where the car needs to be...more diversified and meeting a broader audience...."bandwidth" as Tadge likes to refer to it. Corvette really only hits a very narrow audience, in a narrow financial space, but that space is broadened by Cadillac and Camaro. I think the key here is Cadillac has built a BRAND, Corvette is merely a model.
In my opinion, they are moving toward a larger "goal" here, and it's up to marketing, the board, and a bunch of other folks to figure out, CAREFULLY, what that is.
Many people have spoken about Corvette as a BRAND, but money, fleet fuel mileage standards, and a bunch of other factors then play in.
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In my opinion, and I say this without knowing ANY of the numbers behind it, I believe a "performance" brand, under the blanket of GM, focusing on global sales/dealer network has potential. Something that has a "HALO" (mid engine) 150k-250k, a upper tier 55k-100k (Corvette continue share with Cadillac CTS-V), 30k-75k (Trans/Am and leave Camaro Chevrolet, continue share with ATS) and 25k-45k (Yet to be determined, rwd 4cyl turbo and naturally aspirated...something, potentially share with Cadillac). It would create the RWD performance brand that Bob Lutz somewhat hinted towards Pontiac becoming. In my opinion, it'll take at least another decade to pull something like that off and Chevrolet needs to have their feet firmly planted to do it, otherwise it'll be an SRT episode.
The implications of "slowing down" production, of a machine (I speak of the Corvette "brand) this large, already in motion...the consequences are monumental...detrimental even.
I believe they are moving toward where the car needs to be...more diversified and meeting a broader audience...."bandwidth" as Tadge likes to refer to it. Corvette really only hits a very narrow audience, in a narrow financial space, but that space is broadened by Cadillac and Camaro. I think the key here is Cadillac has built a BRAND, Corvette is merely a model.
In my opinion, they are moving toward a larger "goal" here, and it's up to marketing, the board, and a bunch of other folks to figure out, CAREFULLY, what that is.
Many people have spoken about Corvette as a BRAND, but money, fleet fuel mileage standards, and a bunch of other factors then play in.
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In my opinion, and I say this without knowing ANY of the numbers behind it, I believe a "performance" brand, under the blanket of GM, focusing on global sales/dealer network has potential. Something that has a "HALO" (mid engine) 150k-250k, a upper tier 55k-100k (Corvette continue share with Cadillac CTS-V), 30k-75k (Trans/Am and leave Camaro Chevrolet, continue share with ATS) and 25k-45k (Yet to be determined, rwd 4cyl turbo and naturally aspirated...something, potentially share with Cadillac). It would create the RWD performance brand that Bob Lutz somewhat hinted towards Pontiac becoming. In my opinion, it'll take at least another decade to pull something like that off and Chevrolet needs to have their feet firmly planted to do it, otherwise it'll be an SRT episode.
You have valid points. But then again GM announced their target production of 2014 Corvettes was somewhere around 25K to 27K total units, which would have been 10k less than what they actually produced. Had they stuck with their original plans there would still be a strong demand for the car. Their initial estimate, I am sure, showed a profit being made.
Corvette doesn't need its own brand, it sells fine as a model under Chevrolet. Corvette provides a benefit to Chevrolet greater than most people know. It draws people to the brand. It demonstrates new technology that is later implemented in other models. Corvette clubs around the world are advertising for Chevrolet.
What got GM in trouble was over production of low quality cars. Quality is much improved in the Corvette, but it is being over produced. It's not entirely Chevrolet's fault, it's winter, our economy has dipped, there is no longer a middle class, etc...
What good is my C7's paint if the garbage panel tolerances cause my paint to crack/chip off?
I'd love it if orange peel was the only the paint problem I was having.
And yes, orange peel is on many cars, including perceived higher end cars. I could give a chit about orange peel. I'm just worried about keeping the paint on my car.
Last edited by \Boost Monkey/; 02-22-2016 at 04:14 PM.
In the past 45yrs , I have been fortunate to be able to buy new cars from every American brand except Lincoln and Buick....and new cars from Toyota , Mercedes, and Subaru......NONE of 'em had perfect paint...some had AWFUL paint! My 2012 GS is a beautiful torch red....and if I look carefully, I can find the paint "errors," BUT...if i were that concerned, then I would take it to a custom shop and have it painted "perfectly" , cost be @#!&*! Paint quality REALLY has come a long way....but it's not going to go much further UNLESS we are willing to pay a lot more and even then the question becomes.....if you pay that much for the paint/finish....do you really want to drive it?? I think Corvette is doing as good as, or better, job on paint as any other manufacturer producing cars in this price bracket.
When did the new process for silver go into effect? I have been shopping C7s and some of the 2014s have noticeable blotchiness. Did it happen for the 2015s or new 2016s only? It's between white and silver for me.
As an owner of a 2015 Silver ZO6 I would also like to know when the improved Silver went into effect. What specifically was changed between the old and the new?
As an owner of a 2015 Silver ZO6 I would also like to know when the improved Silver went into effect. What specifically was changed between the old and the new?
If I were to guess I'd say after the 2016 production started. Reason being is because we have an earlier build 2016 coupe and a recent build 2016 Z06 in Blade Silver and I can see the difference that Tadge is talking about.
The silver paint now darkens at certain angles more than ever before which really highlights the edges of the car. The paint also has a warming glow to it in direct light. Most wouldn't notice the difference unless you had them sitting side by side.
If I were to guess I'd say after the 2016 production started. Reason being is because we have an earlier build 2016 coupe and a recent build 2016 Z06 in Blade Silver and I can see the difference that Tadge is talking about.
The silver paint now darkens at certain angles more than ever before which really highlights the edges of the car. The paint also has a warming glow to it in direct light. Most wouldn't notice the difference unless you had them sitting side by side.
Sounds like a nice enhancement to the paint. Thanks!
Great answer by Tadge. 99 percent of us vette junkies are delighted to have the best street supercar in the world at a fabulous price point. The 1 percent who want a custom paint job to achieve their goals, can open their wallets and take it to their favorite shop.
02-19-2016, 12:30 PM
[ANSWERED] Has Corvette/GM considered improving the paint finishing process?
I think Corvette is doing as good as, or better, job on paint as any other manufacturer producing cars in this price bracket.
