[ASKED] Manual trans vs auto
02-10-2017, 03:21 PM
#21
I'm another one! There must still be a bunch of us out here. I remember when this issue first turned up in the forum. One of the posts drew a reply from Tadge, who stated that he would suggest the M7 for road racing due to just what we're discussing in this thread! It's an easy fix for us - just shift a few RPM earlier. Works like a champ! I'd imagine that Chevrolet would not discontinue the M7. There really are quite a few of us who like that special connection with our Corvettes! In the end, whatever method you use to shift, enjoy this stunning car!
02-10-2017, 04:28 PM
#22
Safety Car
So here's your market signal. Porsche 911 sells for half a million bucks used because it's a manual first and foremost:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...on-dollar-car/
That's what happens when you take away manual from the enthusiasts. Lots of rich folks are sticking to older GT3s.
Does GM really think Corvette buyers won't stick to their manual C7 instead of buying auto?
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...on-dollar-car/
That's what happens when you take away manual from the enthusiasts. Lots of rich folks are sticking to older GT3s.
Does GM really think Corvette buyers won't stick to their manual C7 instead of buying auto?
02-10-2017, 04:34 PM
#23
Safety Car
I'm another one! There must still be a bunch of us out here. I remember when this issue first turned up in the forum. One of the posts drew a reply from Tadge, who stated that he would suggest the M7 for road racing due to just what we're discussing in this thread! It's an easy fix for us - just shift a few RPM earlier. Works like a champ! I'd imagine that Chevrolet would not discontinue the M7. There really are quite a few of us who like that special connection with our Corvettes! In the end, whatever method you use to shift, enjoy this stunning car!
Reason #2: it has a lower thermal load, aka does not require second heat exchanger. This is the reason M7 cars run much cooler, we can run two radiators for the engine if we don't need the second transmission radiator. Otherwise you will be always sacrificing heat dissipation for the engine to cool the trans.
Reason #3: it still has lower driveline loss
Reason #4: lighter
The whole raison d'etre for C7 was to separate engine cooling up front from trans/diff in the rear. Nothing says we failed the design like running lines from the back of the car to the front to cool the automatic in a desperate attempt. Few remember the A8 Z06 launched with a lag of a few months to carry this out. I cut in line what must have been hundreds of A8 orders since they produced all M7s first.
02-10-2017, 09:32 PM
#24
Just put a DCT in the back of the Corvette and the rear mounted cooler will work fine, perhaps with a minor tweak, no need to run lines to the front, as it is just a manual really, and does not generate heat like an auto. What you get is a solenoid shifted manual with shift forks just like a manual with a stick, advantage being super fast shifts, which you can shift manually with paddles or let the computer shift if you want to run it in auto mode. It's a win/win and no need to ever use a regular automatic again. Keeps your left foot steady on the dead pedal or left-foot brake if you like.
GM has to be working on a DCT. Of course they are, read this:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/10/...it-in-with-gm/
GM has to be working on a DCT. Of course they are, read this:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/10/...it-in-with-gm/
02-11-2017, 06:03 PM
#25
Safety Car
Just put a DCT in the back of the Corvette and the rear mounted cooler will work fine, perhaps with a minor tweak, no need to run lines to the front, as it is just a manual really, and does not generate heat like an auto. What you get is a solenoid shifted manual with shift forks just like a manual with a stick, advantage being super fast shifts, which you can shift manually with paddles or let the computer shift if you want to run it in auto mode. It's a win/win and no need to ever use a regular automatic again. Keeps your left foot steady on the dead pedal or left-foot brake if you like.
GM has to be working on a DCT. Of course they are, read this:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/10/...it-in-with-gm/
GM has to be working on a DCT. Of course they are, read this:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/10/...it-in-with-gm/
Didn't GTRs overheat and break the DCT?
http://www.autonews.com/article/2015...e-favor-in-u.s.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 02-11-2017 at 06:04 PM.
02-12-2017, 07:58 AM
#26
The only people in the world who drive almost all automatics are in North America. The rest of the world greatly favors manuals. So the article you listed shows that in the US, people are not used to the hard shifting a DCT gives compared to an automatic, but in the rest of the world, DCT's are not as much of a shock, literally.
https://www.thezebra.com/insurance-n...-vs-automatic/
Article says in the US, 96% of cars sold are automatics, while in Europe and Japan, only 20% are automatics, so it is much easier to transition consumers to DCT's.
But that is all about mass market cars. This is about sports cars, and in that market, the manuals are losing out because the DTC is simply better performing. They make the cars go faster, which is what sports cars are about. DCT's are less engaging for some, but I can drive either a manual or a DCT, and I like both. But for going fast, DCT wins hands down, as it lets you use the concentration you used for shifting to better select your corner entry and braking. The manufacturers of high end sports cars have or are getting rid of manuals, at least in the most part. Of course they are more costly and complex, and they need more cooling than a manual but less than an automatic. I assume when Corvettes get fitted with DCT's, they will be good.
GTRs did overheat their DCT's for the first generation, and needed an add-on cooler for hard core track use, just like every Corvette needed add-on cooling. GTR's got a fix up and so did Corvettes for cooling, as both manufacturers underestimated what use the cars would be put to on track by customers. My Z51 manual transmission overheated every time I took it on track, pinning the transmission temp gauge, and also overheated the engine coolant. My GTR transmission is over 9 years old and has never failed or missed a shift, and it has seen a ton of track use. Only the early ones broke when people used an undocumented and warranty voiding launch mode. The manufacturer changed the software and eliminated the problem. I knew it was a stupid thing to do so I never did it. GTR's DCT is clunky, while AMG GTS's is really smooth. Technology keeps improving.
https://www.thezebra.com/insurance-n...-vs-automatic/
Article says in the US, 96% of cars sold are automatics, while in Europe and Japan, only 20% are automatics, so it is much easier to transition consumers to DCT's.
But that is all about mass market cars. This is about sports cars, and in that market, the manuals are losing out because the DTC is simply better performing. They make the cars go faster, which is what sports cars are about. DCT's are less engaging for some, but I can drive either a manual or a DCT, and I like both. But for going fast, DCT wins hands down, as it lets you use the concentration you used for shifting to better select your corner entry and braking. The manufacturers of high end sports cars have or are getting rid of manuals, at least in the most part. Of course they are more costly and complex, and they need more cooling than a manual but less than an automatic. I assume when Corvettes get fitted with DCT's, they will be good.
GTRs did overheat their DCT's for the first generation, and needed an add-on cooler for hard core track use, just like every Corvette needed add-on cooling. GTR's got a fix up and so did Corvettes for cooling, as both manufacturers underestimated what use the cars would be put to on track by customers. My Z51 manual transmission overheated every time I took it on track, pinning the transmission temp gauge, and also overheated the engine coolant. My GTR transmission is over 9 years old and has never failed or missed a shift, and it has seen a ton of track use. Only the early ones broke when people used an undocumented and warranty voiding launch mode. The manufacturer changed the software and eliminated the problem. I knew it was a stupid thing to do so I never did it. GTR's DCT is clunky, while AMG GTS's is really smooth. Technology keeps improving.
02-12-2017, 02:20 PM
#27
As far as I can tell history shows DCTs have had a hard time driving smoothly on the road, especially at low speeds. They tend to have a much higher failure rate than manuals. They are much more expensive to buy and to service. Some of them do overheat, even in expensive cars. I rarely hear of manuals overheating. There's got to be more to it.
Didn't GTRs overheat and break the DCT?
http://www.autonews.com/article/2015...e-favor-in-u.s.
Didn't GTRs overheat and break the DCT?
http://www.autonews.com/article/2015...e-favor-in-u.s.
Here is an excerpt of Tadge's reply that I was referring to above. I will try to track his message down in the forum and post a link, as it is a rather sizeable message about running two ZO6s at Atlanta for the press, using 3 professional drivers. Here's the excerpt:
"...After multiple laps at speed he came in with a hot warning message. Although the car had been out on track all week, that was the first and only incident. In Corvette's 60 year history, we have never put automatics on track for media and never encouraged people interested in track usage to buy automatics. ..."
As mentioned earlier, I'd try to track down the full version of Tadge's post. This link takes you to the thread. Plenty to take in!
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1589285890
Last edited by jmk; 02-12-2017 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Added link to the message excerpt thread.
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SBC_and_a_stick (02-15-2017)
02-15-2017, 06:04 PM
#28
Safety Car
The only people in the world who drive almost all automatics are in North America. The rest of the world greatly favors manuals. So the article you listed shows that in the US, people are not used to the hard shifting a DCT gives compared to an automatic, but in the rest of the world, DCT's are not as much of a shock, literally.
https://www.thezebra.com/insurance-n...-vs-automatic/
Article says in the US, 96% of cars sold are automatics, while in Europe and Japan, only 20% are automatics, so it is much easier to transition consumers to DCT's.
But that is all about mass market cars. This is about sports cars, and in that market, the manuals are losing out because the DTC is simply better performing. They make the cars go faster, which is what sports cars are about. DCT's are less engaging for some, but I can drive either a manual or a DCT, and I like both. But for going fast, DCT wins hands down, as it lets you use the concentration you used for shifting to better select your corner entry and braking. The manufacturers of high end sports cars have or are getting rid of manuals, at least in the most part. Of course they are more costly and complex, and they need more cooling than a manual but less than an automatic. I assume when Corvettes get fitted with DCT's, they will be good.
GTRs did overheat their DCT's for the first generation, and needed an add-on cooler for hard core track use, just like every Corvette needed add-on cooling. GTR's got a fix up and so did Corvettes for cooling, as both manufacturers underestimated what use the cars would be put to on track by customers. My Z51 manual transmission overheated every time I took it on track, pinning the transmission temp gauge, and also overheated the engine coolant. My GTR transmission is over 9 years old and has never failed or missed a shift, and it has seen a ton of track use. Only the early ones broke when people used an undocumented and warranty voiding launch mode. The manufacturer changed the software and eliminated the problem. I knew it was a stupid thing to do so I never did it. GTR's DCT is clunky, while AMG GTS's is really smooth. Technology keeps improving.
https://www.thezebra.com/insurance-n...-vs-automatic/
Article says in the US, 96% of cars sold are automatics, while in Europe and Japan, only 20% are automatics, so it is much easier to transition consumers to DCT's.
But that is all about mass market cars. This is about sports cars, and in that market, the manuals are losing out because the DTC is simply better performing. They make the cars go faster, which is what sports cars are about. DCT's are less engaging for some, but I can drive either a manual or a DCT, and I like both. But for going fast, DCT wins hands down, as it lets you use the concentration you used for shifting to better select your corner entry and braking. The manufacturers of high end sports cars have or are getting rid of manuals, at least in the most part. Of course they are more costly and complex, and they need more cooling than a manual but less than an automatic. I assume when Corvettes get fitted with DCT's, they will be good.
GTRs did overheat their DCT's for the first generation, and needed an add-on cooler for hard core track use, just like every Corvette needed add-on cooling. GTR's got a fix up and so did Corvettes for cooling, as both manufacturers underestimated what use the cars would be put to on track by customers. My Z51 manual transmission overheated every time I took it on track, pinning the transmission temp gauge, and also overheated the engine coolant. My GTR transmission is over 9 years old and has never failed or missed a shift, and it has seen a ton of track use. Only the early ones broke when people used an undocumented and warranty voiding launch mode. The manufacturer changed the software and eliminated the problem. I knew it was a stupid thing to do so I never did it. GTR's DCT is clunky, while AMG GTS's is really smooth. Technology keeps improving.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-con...arbox-is-ours/
"And the U.S. market (okay, and Canada) is the only one in which the three-pedal M5 will be offered."
"On the previous-gen, V-10–powered M5 (E60), a six-speed manual was hastily added to the North American order sheet after customers and some magazine editors who shall remain us complained about the herky-jerky SMG automated manual."
But alas fewer and fewer enthusiasts can afford these luxury barges and therefore automatics/dct will prevail.
You question whether slow cars can be sports cars, I question whether luxury barges weighing close to 4,000lbs can be sports cars. None of the Bentley road cars are sports cars in my book.
I disagree that sports cars are about going faster. A V6 Camry is faster than many entry level sports cars but it doesn't make it a sports car.
Did you really overheat the manual in the Z51 or did you just run it on red?
02-15-2017, 08:27 PM
#29
It just ran red, pinned the gauge every single session, with no idea how hot it really got, but obviously below the 325 F limit I read about in the manual, and it took forever to get back down to normal. I drove it off the track to get gas for 15 minutes at 50 mph and video taped the temp gauge to show the service manager at my GM dealer so he could relay the info back to the brand manager. I call that overheating, and so did GM because now they fit the Z06 transmission cooler on the newer models.
I agree with you about sports car not necessarily being about going faster. You can have a great time in a Miata or a Lotus Elan, with manual transmissions, no DCT will make those cars better. But for fast sports cars, DCT's are better, and that is why virtually every fast sports car manufacturer has dumped the manuals. There is a very small group of people who really care about manuals, and Porsche for example is trying to cater to that very limited market with a very limited supply of manual cars, as does BMW it seems. I had 5 sports cars recently, three with manuals and two with DCT's, and I sold two of the manuals and will be selling the remaining manual to end up with 2 DCT equipped sports cars. The DCT cars are just more modern in ways not related to the type of transmission, but rather to the overall package of which the DCT is a part, and I drove every one of the 5 cars on track, hard core. I can heel and toe with the best of them, but not having to do that when diving into a corner just lets you drive better. You never lose brake pedal pressure as you go into the corner and can trail brake really smoothly without your brake pressure varying as you downshift one or two gears, and you can shift up or down in the middle of a corner, which is not something easily done with a manual, since the DCT shifts so quick it doesn't upset the car or chirp the tires. I get the manual thing, it connects you with the mechanicals via the stick like a DCT can never do. Flipping paddles is never as engaging or skill requiring as stick shifting is. But for every review I read, like the latest one in MT comparing the Corvette GS with a 991.2 Porsche where the American journalist whines that they couldn't get one to review with manual, I say get with the program, the DCT equipped cars are phenomenal. The Porsche with less power trounces the manual Corvette in acceleration and would easily equal it on track with the same tires. But of course it costs a lot more. I figure as long as there is a market for manuals, a few manufacturers will offer products, but the likes of Ferrari, McLaren and Lamborghini have dropped the manual forever in favor of the DCT. and just look at the lap time put down at the Ring by the new AMG GTR, 7:10 I think it was. That would have been slower with manual, as every shift in a manual takes more time, and there are a lot of shifts in a 7 minute lap. So if it doesn't win everyone's heart, it will win with tick of the stopwatch.
I agree with you about sports car not necessarily being about going faster. You can have a great time in a Miata or a Lotus Elan, with manual transmissions, no DCT will make those cars better. But for fast sports cars, DCT's are better, and that is why virtually every fast sports car manufacturer has dumped the manuals. There is a very small group of people who really care about manuals, and Porsche for example is trying to cater to that very limited market with a very limited supply of manual cars, as does BMW it seems. I had 5 sports cars recently, three with manuals and two with DCT's, and I sold two of the manuals and will be selling the remaining manual to end up with 2 DCT equipped sports cars. The DCT cars are just more modern in ways not related to the type of transmission, but rather to the overall package of which the DCT is a part, and I drove every one of the 5 cars on track, hard core. I can heel and toe with the best of them, but not having to do that when diving into a corner just lets you drive better. You never lose brake pedal pressure as you go into the corner and can trail brake really smoothly without your brake pressure varying as you downshift one or two gears, and you can shift up or down in the middle of a corner, which is not something easily done with a manual, since the DCT shifts so quick it doesn't upset the car or chirp the tires. I get the manual thing, it connects you with the mechanicals via the stick like a DCT can never do. Flipping paddles is never as engaging or skill requiring as stick shifting is. But for every review I read, like the latest one in MT comparing the Corvette GS with a 991.2 Porsche where the American journalist whines that they couldn't get one to review with manual, I say get with the program, the DCT equipped cars are phenomenal. The Porsche with less power trounces the manual Corvette in acceleration and would easily equal it on track with the same tires. But of course it costs a lot more. I figure as long as there is a market for manuals, a few manufacturers will offer products, but the likes of Ferrari, McLaren and Lamborghini have dropped the manual forever in favor of the DCT. and just look at the lap time put down at the Ring by the new AMG GTR, 7:10 I think it was. That would have been slower with manual, as every shift in a manual takes more time, and there are a lot of shifts in a 7 minute lap. So if it doesn't win everyone's heart, it will win with tick of the stopwatch.
