[ANSWERED] Corvette Seat Care
09-14-2017, 11:09 AM
#1
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"Ask Tadge" Producer
[ANSWERED] Corvette Seat Care
The original question is here.
Maxie2U asked:
There is much debate among C7 owners whether the seats in addition to periodic cleaning need to have leather conditioners applied periodically to the leather portions of the seats and vinyl conditioners applied to the "leatherette" portions. Many owners say the seats have a protective coating so the seats only need to be cleaned occasionally but not treated with conditioners because these treatments will damage the protective coating.
What is the real story on interior care?
There is much debate among C7 owners whether the seats in addition to periodic cleaning need to have leather conditioners applied periodically to the leather portions of the seats and vinyl conditioners applied to the "leatherette" portions. Many owners say the seats have a protective coating so the seats only need to be cleaned occasionally but not treated with conditioners because these treatments will damage the protective coating.
What is the real story on interior care?
Tadge answered:
Corvette, like all GM products uses interior materials that are extensively engineered to meet some very tough requirements. Seats in particular need to be resistant to abrasion, wear, ultra-violet radiation, intense thermal cycling (it can approach 200 degrees inside the car when parked in the sun in the Arizona desert or Mid-East. We also have to consider the Canadian or Norwegian customer who's car may experience 40 degrees below zero) in addition to soiling and stain resistance. The materials we use are treated and coated to meet these requirements. Aggressive cleaners will make the car look better in the short term, but can damage the protections, so it will be more susceptible to wear and soiling over the long term.
Our recommendations are the same for leather and other leather-like materials. If at all possible, do the cleaning with a damp micro-fiber cloth. If that doesn't work, add a little of the mildest soap you can find. Do not use products like Fantastik, liquid detergents, or bar soap. GM offers a leather, vinyl and plastic cleaner (Part number 88861401) that has been validated to be compatible with our interior materials. Any car that is used regularly is going to get dirty. Staying ahead of it and avoiding build-up is the best strategy. If you clean more often, it is more likely that the least aggressive technique will work. Think about using the damp micro-fiber cloth on the interior every time you wash your car.
One final point: There are numerous companies that provide professional cleaning services for vehicle interiors. We can not make any specific recommendations here other than our cumulative customer feedback is mixed at best. We have seen many cases where customers' cars have been permanently damaged by caustic chemicals and aggressive cleaning methods. If you want to use one of these services, make sure you talk to previous customers and look at their cars after multiple times through the process.
Corvette, like all GM products uses interior materials that are extensively engineered to meet some very tough requirements. Seats in particular need to be resistant to abrasion, wear, ultra-violet radiation, intense thermal cycling (it can approach 200 degrees inside the car when parked in the sun in the Arizona desert or Mid-East. We also have to consider the Canadian or Norwegian customer who's car may experience 40 degrees below zero) in addition to soiling and stain resistance. The materials we use are treated and coated to meet these requirements. Aggressive cleaners will make the car look better in the short term, but can damage the protections, so it will be more susceptible to wear and soiling over the long term.
Our recommendations are the same for leather and other leather-like materials. If at all possible, do the cleaning with a damp micro-fiber cloth. If that doesn't work, add a little of the mildest soap you can find. Do not use products like Fantastik, liquid detergents, or bar soap. GM offers a leather, vinyl and plastic cleaner (Part number 88861401) that has been validated to be compatible with our interior materials. Any car that is used regularly is going to get dirty. Staying ahead of it and avoiding build-up is the best strategy. If you clean more often, it is more likely that the least aggressive technique will work. Think about using the damp micro-fiber cloth on the interior every time you wash your car.
One final point: There are numerous companies that provide professional cleaning services for vehicle interiors. We can not make any specific recommendations here other than our cumulative customer feedback is mixed at best. We have seen many cases where customers' cars have been permanently damaged by caustic chemicals and aggressive cleaning methods. If you want to use one of these services, make sure you talk to previous customers and look at their cars after multiple times through the process.
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09-14-2017, 10:20 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
OK, since the materials used in the C7 are treated and coated there is no need for conditioners. 
Last edited by Maxie2U; 09-14-2017 at 10:24 PM.
09-14-2017, 10:29 PM
#3
Pro
I read the response as saying the conditioner should not be used.
It is too bad they do not put this advice in the Owners Manual. They state the use of a dampened micro-fiber cloth, but it would be nice if they mentioned the 88861401 leather, vinyl, and plastic cleaner. I have GM cleaner with a different part number from a few years ago and also the accompanying conditioner. I will throw those away and get the new product.
It is too bad they do not put this advice in the Owners Manual. They state the use of a dampened micro-fiber cloth, but it would be nice if they mentioned the 88861401 leather, vinyl, and plastic cleaner. I have GM cleaner with a different part number from a few years ago and also the accompanying conditioner. I will throw those away and get the new product.
09-16-2017, 01:01 AM
#4
If you're into pig wrestling, and and then driving home in the same muddy clothes, perhaps the GM cleaner product might be of use. Otherwise, a monthly wipe-down with a damp, clean microfiber towel will suffice, and the cleaner is of no use.
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09-16-2017, 09:32 AM
#5
Pro
Seats do get stains that are near impossible to remove with a damp micro-fiber wipe down. When that happens it is good to have the proper cleaner as recommended by Tadge on hand. I ordered a bottle from my local dealer yesterday for less than $10. I will not use it unless a stain is really stubborn. My Corvette may never need that additional effort, but my XT5 that occasionally has grandchildren in their booster seats needs that extra effort more frequently.
09-17-2017, 04:32 PM
#6
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2004
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St. Jude Donor '09
A real good and simple cleaner is 1 part Woolite mixed with 10 parts water....It will remove any sweat stains from the leather seats, arm rest and steering wheel.....
09-20-2017, 08:38 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
This was a recent topic of discussion with some friends including a professional detailer who didn't even know the real answer. As a confirmed car cleaning addict, I was disappointed to learn that all my expensive, nice smelling leather conditioners are probably doing squat as far as helping the leather. 
Oh well. At least they smell good.
Oh well. At least they smell good.
09-21-2017, 12:33 PM
#10
Pro
Just picked up a bottle of 88861401 Leather, Vinyl and Plastic Cleaner as recommended by Tadge.
The label states "This cleaner should be used in conjunction with conditioner 88861402/6 to restore natural oils in the leather and vinyl materials".
I have cleaner and conditioner I purchased when my 2009 was new with the cleaner ending in "5" and the conditioner ending in "6". I will now use the new cleaner with the previously purchased conditioner.
It is unfortunate GM does not make the recommendation for this cleaner/conditioner in the owners manual. None of the dealers in the Milwaukee area carry the product and I found it at Lake Geneva which is 40 miles away. They had it in a box to return to GM because it was on the shelf for over a year without sales. Anyone in Southern Wisconsin can contact Lake Geneva Chevrolet quickly to get one of the few available in the area.
The label states "This cleaner should be used in conjunction with conditioner 88861402/6 to restore natural oils in the leather and vinyl materials".
I have cleaner and conditioner I purchased when my 2009 was new with the cleaner ending in "5" and the conditioner ending in "6". I will now use the new cleaner with the previously purchased conditioner.
It is unfortunate GM does not make the recommendation for this cleaner/conditioner in the owners manual. None of the dealers in the Milwaukee area carry the product and I found it at Lake Geneva which is 40 miles away. They had it in a box to return to GM because it was on the shelf for over a year without sales. Anyone in Southern Wisconsin can contact Lake Geneva Chevrolet quickly to get one of the few available in the area.
09-21-2017, 05:31 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
This was a short but good read. I'm assuming this recommendation goes for any higher end car. I'm worried even on our new ride and just sticking with a simple damp microfiber cloth and it seems to be working (that's what the manual states). Any specific recommendations for carbon fiber interior parts? It's for a 2017 R8 V10 plus+.
09-21-2017, 05:36 PM
#12
Pro
This was a short but good read. I'm assuming this recommendation goes for any higher end car. I'm worried even on our new ride and just sticking with a simple damp microfiber cloth and it seems to be working (that's what the manual states). Any specific recommendations for carbon fiber interior parts? It's for a 2017 R8 V10 plus+.
Any other manufacturer, it is best to follow their recommendations because interior materials are manufacturer specific.
09-30-2017, 11:59 AM
#13
Drifting
Info how to care for your leather seats, dashboard and door panels.
The three most common types of automotive leather are:
Aniline: Leather that has been dyed and coated with a pigment (colored urethane paint) to yield uniform color and then clear coated. This type of leather does not reveal scars, pores and blemishes and has an artificial uniform grain pattern embossed. It is typically the only real leather in the seat and located only in the center inserts of the seat. The sides, bolsters, etc., are vinyl painted with the same colored urethane paint so it matches the leather inserts perfectly giving the entire seat a "leather" look. This is what 99% of cars have including Corvette, Escalade, newer Ferrari and Lamborghini. To demonstrate this just put a drop of water on your seat and see if it soaks in. It will not soak in as the leather has a painted on urethane coating on it. If water can't penetrate the coating how can "conditioners" and "protectants?" Read on.....
Semi-Aniline: Leather that has been dyed and coated with a semi-transparent pigment then clear coated This type of leather may reveal some of the underlying scars and blemishes of the hide as well as some color and grain changes. Almost never seen in the past twenty years.
Synthetic (aka vinyl): Much of the leather, and in some, all of the leather in many of today's vehicles is entirely synthetic or engineered leather. It looks like real leather but is really entirely synthetic. This is in use in some high ticket brands like Lexus, MB and Infinity for example. It is often difficult to tell what is real leather and what is engineered leather.
The bottom line is 99.9% of cars sold today have leather only on the middle insert of the seat bottom and back. The sides are completely 100% vinyl. The color and texture of the vinyl matches the leather inserts perfectly as they are all sprayed with a colored urethane coating. A perfect way to demonstrate they are vinyl is the water drop test outlined above. Another way is pull some of the seat siding out from underneath the seat. Notice there is a very thin foam or cloth backing? Real leather (from real cows) doesn't have foam backing on it.
Have you noticed the change in new car window stickers when referring to the seats? They now call the interior "leather lined," or "leather trim." Just take a look at a new C7 Corvette window sticker. They don't say "leather seats" like they used to. Now the C7 window sticker says, "Trim, Leather." This is because only the center inserts are actually leather! The remainder of the seat is vinyl. Remember, vinyl has a thin foam or cloth backing on it.
Everyone seems to like the term "conditioner," but just what is conditioning? When leather professionals speak of “conditioning leather” they are usually speaking about leather hydration. Properly hydrated leather will be soft, plump and flexible making it resistant to creasing and cracking. Most traditional conditioners are typically oily or contain silicone, wax or things like Aloe or Neat's-foot or Mink oil. No protected, urethane coated, leather needs or benefits from these things. Conditioning products were initially designed for a much different type of leather like car seat who were 100% uncoated leather back in the 60's and 70's. Remember, none of these conditioners can absorb through the urethane coating making them useless.
Most conditioners leave a film on protected leather that can hasten the accumulation of soil. Dirt is attracted to the oil as it sits on top of the urethane coating and in the stitching. Your butt rubbing back and forth across this dirt acts like sandpaper and actually buffs the colored urethane coating off. This is frequently the cause of early bolster wear!
Conditioners do not penetrate the urethane painted top coat to condition the leather. True, some of the H2o in these conditioners evaporates and raises the relative humidity in the car cockpit which is beneficial as the leather will pick up the molecular H2o through the process of transpiration. Transpiration is the process by which moisture is carried through humidity to small pores on the underside of the leather/vinyl, where it changes to vapor and is released to the atmosphere. The leather/vinyl can absorb this through the untreated, underside of the material. However, a damp wipe down with a towel will do this as well and not leave that soil grabbing film.
Keep in mind that the colored urethane topcoat was added to the leather for the purpose of preventing spills and liquids from getting to the leather, as well as hiding the leather’s underlying scars, and blemishes, while making the leather more abrasion resistant. The urethane topcoat is colored so all of the surfaces of the seat match the door panels, dashboard, etc. If they did not contain coloring, every single piece of "leather" in your car would not match.
Leather conditioners do nothing to prevent stains or dye transfer. If your leather has developed cracks, using an oily conditioner may further degrade the adhesion of the painted topcoat around the crack and make the damage worse. Doesn't wet paper tear much easier than dry paper?
So how does this painted on protective urethane coating work and still allow the leather to stay hydrated? Much the same way as a rain coat would protect you from a driving rain. At the same time the rain is being repelled, you will begin to notice that your clothing is becoming damp due to the 100% humidity level. That's basically how your leather stays hydrated, at the molecular level. If you want to test this put a drop of water on your protected leather in an inconspicuous place and leave for 15-20 minutes and you will see that it does not soak in. That is the urethane top coat preventing the absorption of the liquid as it was designed to do. H2o is a small molecule when compared to an oily conditioner so if water is not being absorbed by the leather, the larger molecules of a conditioner certainly are not.
Ok, so for those who insist that their leather feels softer after using a conditioner I can suggest three reasons for this. The first is that the conditioner has left an oily film on the leather and it altered the "hand" or feel of the leather. It has not really done anything to the leather, as it can't get to the leather, but it makes the hand feel nice for a short time until it is rubbed off or evaporates.
The other reason is that the conditioner likely contains a good deal of water and that it is raising the humidity level in the proximity of the leather. If this happens, the leather may absorb the water molecules and plump up and feel softer. The thing about this is that a wipe down with a wrung out watered cotton towel would accomplish the exact same thing.
The third reason is that the term conditioner has no defined meaning. Who knows what is in the bottle labeled Leather Conditioner? What one company calls a conditioner another might call a protectant. Whatever your "conditioner" is will just give you the impression the leather is softer when you touch it since it is slick. It is certainly not "conditioned" since it cannot absorb into the leather or vinyl portion of your seats. Bottom line is the industry has too many vague definitions as to exactly what "conditioning" is.
Leather is made soft in the tanning process and then sealed. You cannot add oils back through the urethane topcoat of protected leather. Leather becomes hard if it loses its needed hydration. Dry leather shrinks and feels hard. Much the same way a chamois gets hard when it is dry. Rehydrate the chamois and it becomes soft again. Rehydrate unprotected leather seats and they should soften to the degree designed in the original tanning process. Think about it.
I never use products that contain neat's-foot, mink, or other oils, silicone, aloe, or any other odd, useless item, but often the labels doesn't tell you what is in the bottle. This includes Leatherique, Lexol, 303 Protectant, Armor All, Zaino, etc., etc. In my experience, these products do nothing but sit on top of the urethane top coating until your clothing wipes them off. In the meantime, they collect dust and dirt which is then ground into your seats and stitching as you slide across the seat getting in and out much like sandpaper. 90% of your seat damage comes from this!
In fact, page 212 of the C7 Corvette owner's manual makes it clear that the only way to clean and treat the seats or other "leather" areas is with water and a mild soap - no cleaners or conditioners! This includes dashboard, door inserts, etc. More specifically, the manual states, "Use a soft microfiber cloth dampened with water to remove dust and loose dirt. For a more thorough cleaning, use a soft microfiber cloth dampened with a mild soap solution. Wipe excess moisture from these surfaces after cleaning and allow them to dry naturally. Never use heat, steam, or spot removers. Do not use cleaners that contain silicone or wax-based products. Cleaners containing solvents can permanently change the appearance and feel of leather or soft trim, and are not recommended. Soaking or saturating leather, especially perforated leather, as well as other interior surfaces, may cause permanent damage."
Don't you think GM would recommend leather cleaners and conditioners if the material was in fact all leather?
The only real, non-coated leather I have seen in a non-exotic car in the past 20 years is a Ford "Big Ranch" Truck. That is it! Take a look at one someday that is a year or more old. The seats will be a complete mess! Being uncoated everything soaks into them such as beer, soda, spew, jizz, body oil, urine, grease, dirt, etc. You will be happy the leather in your car is "coated" after seeing this. Remember, the reason this stuff doesn't soak into your seat is the same reason "conditioners" will not soak in so don't use them!
I vacuum the leather in my C6, Ferrari 360 and Lambo Gallardo and wipe it down with a wrung out watered (damp) towel weekly. This includes dashboard, door inserts, etc. When they get dirty, I clean them with delicate soap like Woolite (10 to 1 ratio) or a highly diluted all-purpose cleaner, A very nice, gentle product is Leathermasters Foam Cleaner. You can buy it at AutoGeek, Amazon, EBay, etc. Leather Master Foam Cleaner is suitable for all leather types including Aniline, Protected, Synthetic (vinyl), Nubuck and Suede Leather.
After cleaning, and before the seats dry, get the cleaning product out/off the seats with a wet towel. Not a damp towel, a wet, but not dripping wet, towel. Finish by wiping off and sucking up the moisture from the wet towel with a dry towel. Use several dry towels if necessary. The key is to absorb as much of the cleaner as possible. This ensures all of the cleaner was removed. Just a damp towel for normal maintenance and cleaning. That is it! Your leather will look like brand new for many years to come! My C6 is ten years old and the seats still look like brand new!
You are going to read a lot of people who make comments disagreeing with me. Just conduct the two above tests and make your own decisions. Does a drop of water soak into the seat or just sit on top until it evaporates? Does the backing of your seat material on the side pieces (bolster) have foam or cloth on the back? Remember, your seats may feel softer after applying a "conditioner," but go back in a day or two and see if they still feel that way. Once the conditioner dries on the seats and on your hands, this softness is gone!
If Corvette seats are 100% leather, why has GM changed their description on MSRP window sticker as "Trim, Leather" and why do they recommend against use of leather cleaners and conditioners? Always keep in mind that you’re dealing with the finished coating on the leather and not with the leather hide itself.
Last example how leather needs nothing more than a simple wipe with a damp cloth. You know that fine leather and recliner couch you own? When was the last time you conditioned it with Lexol, Latherique, Zaino, etc.? Never! And I bet it still looks like brand new. How could this be if you need to smear leather conditioner and cleaners all over it all the time? Truth be known....do nothing and it will last forever!!!! Enuf said!
Read this if you are still skeptical: http://togwt1980.blogspot.com/2013/1...aning-and.html
The three most common types of automotive leather are:
Aniline: Leather that has been dyed and coated with a pigment (colored urethane paint) to yield uniform color and then clear coated. This type of leather does not reveal scars, pores and blemishes and has an artificial uniform grain pattern embossed. It is typically the only real leather in the seat and located only in the center inserts of the seat. The sides, bolsters, etc., are vinyl painted with the same colored urethane paint so it matches the leather inserts perfectly giving the entire seat a "leather" look. This is what 99% of cars have including Corvette, Escalade, newer Ferrari and Lamborghini. To demonstrate this just put a drop of water on your seat and see if it soaks in. It will not soak in as the leather has a painted on urethane coating on it. If water can't penetrate the coating how can "conditioners" and "protectants?" Read on.....
Semi-Aniline: Leather that has been dyed and coated with a semi-transparent pigment then clear coated This type of leather may reveal some of the underlying scars and blemishes of the hide as well as some color and grain changes. Almost never seen in the past twenty years.
Synthetic (aka vinyl): Much of the leather, and in some, all of the leather in many of today's vehicles is entirely synthetic or engineered leather. It looks like real leather but is really entirely synthetic. This is in use in some high ticket brands like Lexus, MB and Infinity for example. It is often difficult to tell what is real leather and what is engineered leather.
The bottom line is 99.9% of cars sold today have leather only on the middle insert of the seat bottom and back. The sides are completely 100% vinyl. The color and texture of the vinyl matches the leather inserts perfectly as they are all sprayed with a colored urethane coating. A perfect way to demonstrate they are vinyl is the water drop test outlined above. Another way is pull some of the seat siding out from underneath the seat. Notice there is a very thin foam or cloth backing? Real leather (from real cows) doesn't have foam backing on it.
Have you noticed the change in new car window stickers when referring to the seats? They now call the interior "leather lined," or "leather trim." Just take a look at a new C7 Corvette window sticker. They don't say "leather seats" like they used to. Now the C7 window sticker says, "Trim, Leather." This is because only the center inserts are actually leather! The remainder of the seat is vinyl. Remember, vinyl has a thin foam or cloth backing on it.
Everyone seems to like the term "conditioner," but just what is conditioning? When leather professionals speak of “conditioning leather” they are usually speaking about leather hydration. Properly hydrated leather will be soft, plump and flexible making it resistant to creasing and cracking. Most traditional conditioners are typically oily or contain silicone, wax or things like Aloe or Neat's-foot or Mink oil. No protected, urethane coated, leather needs or benefits from these things. Conditioning products were initially designed for a much different type of leather like car seat who were 100% uncoated leather back in the 60's and 70's. Remember, none of these conditioners can absorb through the urethane coating making them useless.
Most conditioners leave a film on protected leather that can hasten the accumulation of soil. Dirt is attracted to the oil as it sits on top of the urethane coating and in the stitching. Your butt rubbing back and forth across this dirt acts like sandpaper and actually buffs the colored urethane coating off. This is frequently the cause of early bolster wear!
Conditioners do not penetrate the urethane painted top coat to condition the leather. True, some of the H2o in these conditioners evaporates and raises the relative humidity in the car cockpit which is beneficial as the leather will pick up the molecular H2o through the process of transpiration. Transpiration is the process by which moisture is carried through humidity to small pores on the underside of the leather/vinyl, where it changes to vapor and is released to the atmosphere. The leather/vinyl can absorb this through the untreated, underside of the material. However, a damp wipe down with a towel will do this as well and not leave that soil grabbing film.
Keep in mind that the colored urethane topcoat was added to the leather for the purpose of preventing spills and liquids from getting to the leather, as well as hiding the leather’s underlying scars, and blemishes, while making the leather more abrasion resistant. The urethane topcoat is colored so all of the surfaces of the seat match the door panels, dashboard, etc. If they did not contain coloring, every single piece of "leather" in your car would not match.
Leather conditioners do nothing to prevent stains or dye transfer. If your leather has developed cracks, using an oily conditioner may further degrade the adhesion of the painted topcoat around the crack and make the damage worse. Doesn't wet paper tear much easier than dry paper?
So how does this painted on protective urethane coating work and still allow the leather to stay hydrated? Much the same way as a rain coat would protect you from a driving rain. At the same time the rain is being repelled, you will begin to notice that your clothing is becoming damp due to the 100% humidity level. That's basically how your leather stays hydrated, at the molecular level. If you want to test this put a drop of water on your protected leather in an inconspicuous place and leave for 15-20 minutes and you will see that it does not soak in. That is the urethane top coat preventing the absorption of the liquid as it was designed to do. H2o is a small molecule when compared to an oily conditioner so if water is not being absorbed by the leather, the larger molecules of a conditioner certainly are not.
Ok, so for those who insist that their leather feels softer after using a conditioner I can suggest three reasons for this. The first is that the conditioner has left an oily film on the leather and it altered the "hand" or feel of the leather. It has not really done anything to the leather, as it can't get to the leather, but it makes the hand feel nice for a short time until it is rubbed off or evaporates.
The other reason is that the conditioner likely contains a good deal of water and that it is raising the humidity level in the proximity of the leather. If this happens, the leather may absorb the water molecules and plump up and feel softer. The thing about this is that a wipe down with a wrung out watered cotton towel would accomplish the exact same thing.
The third reason is that the term conditioner has no defined meaning. Who knows what is in the bottle labeled Leather Conditioner? What one company calls a conditioner another might call a protectant. Whatever your "conditioner" is will just give you the impression the leather is softer when you touch it since it is slick. It is certainly not "conditioned" since it cannot absorb into the leather or vinyl portion of your seats. Bottom line is the industry has too many vague definitions as to exactly what "conditioning" is.
Leather is made soft in the tanning process and then sealed. You cannot add oils back through the urethane topcoat of protected leather. Leather becomes hard if it loses its needed hydration. Dry leather shrinks and feels hard. Much the same way a chamois gets hard when it is dry. Rehydrate the chamois and it becomes soft again. Rehydrate unprotected leather seats and they should soften to the degree designed in the original tanning process. Think about it.
I never use products that contain neat's-foot, mink, or other oils, silicone, aloe, or any other odd, useless item, but often the labels doesn't tell you what is in the bottle. This includes Leatherique, Lexol, 303 Protectant, Armor All, Zaino, etc., etc. In my experience, these products do nothing but sit on top of the urethane top coating until your clothing wipes them off. In the meantime, they collect dust and dirt which is then ground into your seats and stitching as you slide across the seat getting in and out much like sandpaper. 90% of your seat damage comes from this!
In fact, page 212 of the C7 Corvette owner's manual makes it clear that the only way to clean and treat the seats or other "leather" areas is with water and a mild soap - no cleaners or conditioners! This includes dashboard, door inserts, etc. More specifically, the manual states, "Use a soft microfiber cloth dampened with water to remove dust and loose dirt. For a more thorough cleaning, use a soft microfiber cloth dampened with a mild soap solution. Wipe excess moisture from these surfaces after cleaning and allow them to dry naturally. Never use heat, steam, or spot removers. Do not use cleaners that contain silicone or wax-based products. Cleaners containing solvents can permanently change the appearance and feel of leather or soft trim, and are not recommended. Soaking or saturating leather, especially perforated leather, as well as other interior surfaces, may cause permanent damage."
Don't you think GM would recommend leather cleaners and conditioners if the material was in fact all leather?
The only real, non-coated leather I have seen in a non-exotic car in the past 20 years is a Ford "Big Ranch" Truck. That is it! Take a look at one someday that is a year or more old. The seats will be a complete mess! Being uncoated everything soaks into them such as beer, soda, spew, jizz, body oil, urine, grease, dirt, etc. You will be happy the leather in your car is "coated" after seeing this. Remember, the reason this stuff doesn't soak into your seat is the same reason "conditioners" will not soak in so don't use them!
I vacuum the leather in my C6, Ferrari 360 and Lambo Gallardo and wipe it down with a wrung out watered (damp) towel weekly. This includes dashboard, door inserts, etc. When they get dirty, I clean them with delicate soap like Woolite (10 to 1 ratio) or a highly diluted all-purpose cleaner, A very nice, gentle product is Leathermasters Foam Cleaner. You can buy it at AutoGeek, Amazon, EBay, etc. Leather Master Foam Cleaner is suitable for all leather types including Aniline, Protected, Synthetic (vinyl), Nubuck and Suede Leather.
After cleaning, and before the seats dry, get the cleaning product out/off the seats with a wet towel. Not a damp towel, a wet, but not dripping wet, towel. Finish by wiping off and sucking up the moisture from the wet towel with a dry towel. Use several dry towels if necessary. The key is to absorb as much of the cleaner as possible. This ensures all of the cleaner was removed. Just a damp towel for normal maintenance and cleaning. That is it! Your leather will look like brand new for many years to come! My C6 is ten years old and the seats still look like brand new!
You are going to read a lot of people who make comments disagreeing with me. Just conduct the two above tests and make your own decisions. Does a drop of water soak into the seat or just sit on top until it evaporates? Does the backing of your seat material on the side pieces (bolster) have foam or cloth on the back? Remember, your seats may feel softer after applying a "conditioner," but go back in a day or two and see if they still feel that way. Once the conditioner dries on the seats and on your hands, this softness is gone!
If Corvette seats are 100% leather, why has GM changed their description on MSRP window sticker as "Trim, Leather" and why do they recommend against use of leather cleaners and conditioners? Always keep in mind that you’re dealing with the finished coating on the leather and not with the leather hide itself.
Last example how leather needs nothing more than a simple wipe with a damp cloth. You know that fine leather and recliner couch you own? When was the last time you conditioned it with Lexol, Latherique, Zaino, etc.? Never! And I bet it still looks like brand new. How could this be if you need to smear leather conditioner and cleaners all over it all the time? Truth be known....do nothing and it will last forever!!!! Enuf said!
Read this if you are still skeptical: http://togwt1980.blogspot.com/2013/1...aning-and.html
10-11-2017, 02:55 PM
#14
Instructor
Corvette seat care
Info how to care for your leather seats, dashboard and door panels.
The three most common types of automotive leather are:
Aniline: Leather that has been dyed and coated with a pigment (colored urethane paint) to yield uniform color and then clear coated. This type of leather does not reveal scars, pores and blemishes and has an artificial uniform grain pattern embossed. It is typically the only real leather in the seat and located only in the center inserts of the seat. The sides, bolsters, etc., are vinyl painted with the same colored urethane paint so it matches the leather inserts perfectly giving the entire seat a "leather" look. This is what 99% of cars have including Corvette, Escalade, newer Ferrari and Lamborghini. To demonstrate this just put a drop of water on your seat and see if it soaks in. It will not soak in as the leather has a painted on urethane coating on it. If water can't penetrate the coating how can "conditioners" and "protectants?" Read on.....
Semi-Aniline: Leather that has been dyed and coated with a semi-transparent pigment then clear coated This type of leather may reveal some of the underlying scars and blemishes of the hide as well as some color and grain changes. Almost never seen in the past twenty years.
Synthetic (aka vinyl): Much of the leather, and in some, all of the leather in many of today's vehicles is entirely synthetic or engineered leather. It looks like real leather but is really entirely synthetic. This is in use in some high ticket brands like Lexus, MB and Infinity for example. It is often difficult to tell what is real leather and what is engineered leather.
The bottom line is 99.9% of cars sold today have leather only on the middle insert of the seat bottom and back. The sides are completely 100% vinyl. The color and texture of the vinyl matches the leather inserts perfectly as they are all sprayed with a colored urethane coating. A perfect way to demonstrate they are vinyl is the water drop test outlined above. Another way is pull some of the seat siding out from underneath the seat. Notice there is a very thin foam or cloth backing? Real leather (from real cows) doesn't have foam backing on it.
Have you noticed the change in new car window stickers when referring to the seats? They now call the interior "leather lined," or "leather trim." Just take a look at a new C7 Corvette window sticker. They don't say "leather seats" like they used to. Now the C7 window sticker says, "Trim, Leather." This is because only the center inserts are actually leather! The remainder of the seat is vinyl. Remember, vinyl has a thin foam or cloth backing on it.
Everyone seems to like the term "conditioner," but just what is conditioning? When leather professionals speak of “conditioning leather” they are usually speaking about leather hydration. Properly hydrated leather will be soft, plump and flexible making it resistant to creasing and cracking. Most traditional conditioners are typically oily or contain silicone, wax or things like Aloe or Neat's-foot or Mink oil. No protected, urethane coated, leather needs or benefits from these things. Conditioning products were initially designed for a much different type of leather like car seat who were 100% uncoated leather back in the 60's and 70's. Remember, none of these conditioners can absorb through the urethane coating making them useless.
Most conditioners leave a film on protected leather that can hasten the accumulation of soil. Dirt is attracted to the oil as it sits on top of the urethane coating and in the stitching. Your butt rubbing back and forth across this dirt acts like sandpaper and actually buffs the colored urethane coating off. This is frequently the cause of early bolster wear!
Conditioners do not penetrate the urethane painted top coat to condition the leather. True, some of the H2o in these conditioners evaporates and raises the relative humidity in the car cockpit which is beneficial as the leather will pick up the molecular H2o through the process of transpiration. Transpiration is the process by which moisture is carried through humidity to small pores on the underside of the leather/vinyl, where it changes to vapor and is released to the atmosphere. The leather/vinyl can absorb this through the untreated, underside of the material. However, a damp wipe down with a towel will do this as well and not leave that soil grabbing film.
Keep in mind that the colored urethane topcoat was added to the leather for the purpose of preventing spills and liquids from getting to the leather, as well as hiding the leather’s underlying scars, and blemishes, while making the leather more abrasion resistant. The urethane topcoat is colored so all of the surfaces of the seat match the door panels, dashboard, etc. If they did not contain coloring, every single piece of "leather" in your car would not match.
Leather conditioners do nothing to prevent stains or dye transfer. If your leather has developed cracks, using an oily conditioner may further degrade the adhesion of the painted topcoat around the crack and make the damage worse. Doesn't wet paper tear much easier than dry paper?
So how does this painted on protective urethane coating work and still allow the leather to stay hydrated? Much the same way as a rain coat would protect you from a driving rain. At the same time the rain is being repelled, you will begin to notice that your clothing is becoming damp due to the 100% humidity level. That's basically how your leather stays hydrated, at the molecular level. If you want to test this put a drop of water on your protected leather in an inconspicuous place and leave for 15-20 minutes and you will see that it does not soak in. That is the urethane top coat preventing the absorption of the liquid as it was designed to do. H2o is a small molecule when compared to an oily conditioner so if water is not being absorbed by the leather, the larger molecules of a conditioner certainly are not.
Ok, so for those who insist that their leather feels softer after using a conditioner I can suggest three reasons for this. The first is that the conditioner has left an oily film on the leather and it altered the "hand" or feel of the leather. It has not really done anything to the leather, as it can't get to the leather, but it makes the hand feel nice for a short time until it is rubbed off or evaporates.
The other reason is that the conditioner likely contains a good deal of water and that it is raising the humidity level in the proximity of the leather. If this happens, the leather may absorb the water molecules and plump up and feel softer. The thing about this is that a wipe down with a wrung out watered cotton towel would accomplish the exact same thing.
The third reason is that the term conditioner has no defined meaning. Who knows what is in the bottle labeled Leather Conditioner? What one company calls a conditioner another might call a protectant. Whatever your "conditioner" is will just give you the impression the leather is softer when you touch it since it is slick. It is certainly not "conditioned" since it cannot absorb into the leather or vinyl portion of your seats. Bottom line is the industry has too many vague definitions as to exactly what "conditioning" is.
Leather is made soft in the tanning process and then sealed. You cannot add oils back through the urethane topcoat of protected leather. Leather becomes hard if it loses its needed hydration. Dry leather shrinks and feels hard. Much the same way a chamois gets hard when it is dry. Rehydrate the chamois and it becomes soft again. Rehydrate unprotected leather seats and they should soften to the degree designed in the original tanning process. Think about it.
I never use products that contain neat's-foot, mink, or other oils, silicone, aloe, or any other odd, useless item, but often the labels doesn't tell you what is in the bottle. This includes Leatherique, Lexol, 303 Protectant, Armor All, Zaino, etc., etc. In my experience, these products do nothing but sit on top of the urethane top coating until your clothing wipes them off. In the meantime, they collect dust and dirt which is then ground into your seats and stitching as you slide across the seat getting in and out much like sandpaper. 90% of your seat damage comes from this!
In fact, page 212 of the C7 Corvette owner's manual makes it clear that the only way to clean and treat the seats or other "leather" areas is with water and a mild soap - no cleaners or conditioners! This includes dashboard, door inserts, etc. More specifically, the manual states, "Use a soft microfiber cloth dampened with water to remove dust and loose dirt. For a more thorough cleaning, use a soft microfiber cloth dampened with a mild soap solution. Wipe excess moisture from these surfaces after cleaning and allow them to dry naturally. Never use heat, steam, or spot removers. Do not use cleaners that contain silicone or wax-based products. Cleaners containing solvents can permanently change the appearance and feel of leather or soft trim, and are not recommended. Soaking or saturating leather, especially perforated leather, as well as other interior surfaces, may cause permanent damage."
Don't you think GM would recommend leather cleaners and conditioners if the material was in fact all leather?
The only real, non-coated leather I have seen in a non-exotic car in the past 20 years is a Ford "Big Ranch" Truck. That is it! Take a look at one someday that is a year or more old. The seats will be a complete mess! Being uncoated everything soaks into them such as beer, soda, spew, jizz, body oil, urine, grease, dirt, etc. You will be happy the leather in your car is "coated" after seeing this. Remember, the reason this stuff doesn't soak into your seat is the same reason "conditioners" will not soak in so don't use them!
I vacuum the leather in my C6, Ferrari 360 and Lambo Gallardo and wipe it down with a wrung out watered (damp) towel weekly. This includes dashboard, door inserts, etc. When they get dirty, I clean them with delicate soap like Woolite (10 to 1 ratio) or a highly diluted all-purpose cleaner, A very nice, gentle product is Leathermasters Foam Cleaner. You can buy it at AutoGeek, Amazon, EBay, etc. Leather Master Foam Cleaner is suitable for all leather types including Aniline, Protected, Synthetic (vinyl), Nubuck and Suede Leather.
After cleaning, and before the seats dry, get the cleaning product out/off the seats with a wet towel. Not a damp towel, a wet, but not dripping wet, towel. Finish by wiping off and sucking up the moisture from the wet towel with a dry towel. Use several dry towels if necessary. The key is to absorb as much of the cleaner as possible. This ensures all of the cleaner was removed. Just a damp towel for normal maintenance and cleaning. That is it! Your leather will look like brand new for many years to come! My C6 is ten years old and the seats still look like brand new!
You are going to read a lot of people who make comments disagreeing with me. Just conduct the two above tests and make your own decisions. Does a drop of water soak into the seat or just sit on top until it evaporates? Does the backing of your seat material on the side pieces (bolster) have foam or cloth on the back? Remember, your seats may feel softer after applying a "conditioner," but go back in a day or two and see if they still feel that way. Once the conditioner dries on the seats and on your hands, this softness is gone!
If Corvette seats are 100% leather, why has GM changed their description on MSRP window sticker as "Trim, Leather" and why do they recommend against use of leather cleaners and conditioners? Always keep in mind that you’re dealing with the finished coating on the leather and not with the leather hide itself.
Last example how leather needs nothing more than a simple wipe with a damp cloth. You know that fine leather and recliner couch you own? When was the last time you conditioned it with Lexol, Latherique, Zaino, etc.? Never! And I bet it still looks like brand new. How could this be if you need to smear leather conditioner and cleaners all over it all the time? Truth be known....do nothing and it will last forever!!!! Enuf said!
Read this if you are still skeptical: http://togwt1980.blogspot.com/2013/1...aning-and.html
The three most common types of automotive leather are:
Aniline: Leather that has been dyed and coated with a pigment (colored urethane paint) to yield uniform color and then clear coated. This type of leather does not reveal scars, pores and blemishes and has an artificial uniform grain pattern embossed. It is typically the only real leather in the seat and located only in the center inserts of the seat. The sides, bolsters, etc., are vinyl painted with the same colored urethane paint so it matches the leather inserts perfectly giving the entire seat a "leather" look. This is what 99% of cars have including Corvette, Escalade, newer Ferrari and Lamborghini. To demonstrate this just put a drop of water on your seat and see if it soaks in. It will not soak in as the leather has a painted on urethane coating on it. If water can't penetrate the coating how can "conditioners" and "protectants?" Read on.....
Semi-Aniline: Leather that has been dyed and coated with a semi-transparent pigment then clear coated This type of leather may reveal some of the underlying scars and blemishes of the hide as well as some color and grain changes. Almost never seen in the past twenty years.
Synthetic (aka vinyl): Much of the leather, and in some, all of the leather in many of today's vehicles is entirely synthetic or engineered leather. It looks like real leather but is really entirely synthetic. This is in use in some high ticket brands like Lexus, MB and Infinity for example. It is often difficult to tell what is real leather and what is engineered leather.
The bottom line is 99.9% of cars sold today have leather only on the middle insert of the seat bottom and back. The sides are completely 100% vinyl. The color and texture of the vinyl matches the leather inserts perfectly as they are all sprayed with a colored urethane coating. A perfect way to demonstrate they are vinyl is the water drop test outlined above. Another way is pull some of the seat siding out from underneath the seat. Notice there is a very thin foam or cloth backing? Real leather (from real cows) doesn't have foam backing on it.
Have you noticed the change in new car window stickers when referring to the seats? They now call the interior "leather lined," or "leather trim." Just take a look at a new C7 Corvette window sticker. They don't say "leather seats" like they used to. Now the C7 window sticker says, "Trim, Leather." This is because only the center inserts are actually leather! The remainder of the seat is vinyl. Remember, vinyl has a thin foam or cloth backing on it.
Everyone seems to like the term "conditioner," but just what is conditioning? When leather professionals speak of “conditioning leather” they are usually speaking about leather hydration. Properly hydrated leather will be soft, plump and flexible making it resistant to creasing and cracking. Most traditional conditioners are typically oily or contain silicone, wax or things like Aloe or Neat's-foot or Mink oil. No protected, urethane coated, leather needs or benefits from these things. Conditioning products were initially designed for a much different type of leather like car seat who were 100% uncoated leather back in the 60's and 70's. Remember, none of these conditioners can absorb through the urethane coating making them useless.
Most conditioners leave a film on protected leather that can hasten the accumulation of soil. Dirt is attracted to the oil as it sits on top of the urethane coating and in the stitching. Your butt rubbing back and forth across this dirt acts like sandpaper and actually buffs the colored urethane coating off. This is frequently the cause of early bolster wear!
Conditioners do not penetrate the urethane painted top coat to condition the leather. True, some of the H2o in these conditioners evaporates and raises the relative humidity in the car cockpit which is beneficial as the leather will pick up the molecular H2o through the process of transpiration. Transpiration is the process by which moisture is carried through humidity to small pores on the underside of the leather/vinyl, where it changes to vapor and is released to the atmosphere. The leather/vinyl can absorb this through the untreated, underside of the material. However, a damp wipe down with a towel will do this as well and not leave that soil grabbing film.
Keep in mind that the colored urethane topcoat was added to the leather for the purpose of preventing spills and liquids from getting to the leather, as well as hiding the leather’s underlying scars, and blemishes, while making the leather more abrasion resistant. The urethane topcoat is colored so all of the surfaces of the seat match the door panels, dashboard, etc. If they did not contain coloring, every single piece of "leather" in your car would not match.
Leather conditioners do nothing to prevent stains or dye transfer. If your leather has developed cracks, using an oily conditioner may further degrade the adhesion of the painted topcoat around the crack and make the damage worse. Doesn't wet paper tear much easier than dry paper?
So how does this painted on protective urethane coating work and still allow the leather to stay hydrated? Much the same way as a rain coat would protect you from a driving rain. At the same time the rain is being repelled, you will begin to notice that your clothing is becoming damp due to the 100% humidity level. That's basically how your leather stays hydrated, at the molecular level. If you want to test this put a drop of water on your protected leather in an inconspicuous place and leave for 15-20 minutes and you will see that it does not soak in. That is the urethane top coat preventing the absorption of the liquid as it was designed to do. H2o is a small molecule when compared to an oily conditioner so if water is not being absorbed by the leather, the larger molecules of a conditioner certainly are not.
Ok, so for those who insist that their leather feels softer after using a conditioner I can suggest three reasons for this. The first is that the conditioner has left an oily film on the leather and it altered the "hand" or feel of the leather. It has not really done anything to the leather, as it can't get to the leather, but it makes the hand feel nice for a short time until it is rubbed off or evaporates.
The other reason is that the conditioner likely contains a good deal of water and that it is raising the humidity level in the proximity of the leather. If this happens, the leather may absorb the water molecules and plump up and feel softer. The thing about this is that a wipe down with a wrung out watered cotton towel would accomplish the exact same thing.
The third reason is that the term conditioner has no defined meaning. Who knows what is in the bottle labeled Leather Conditioner? What one company calls a conditioner another might call a protectant. Whatever your "conditioner" is will just give you the impression the leather is softer when you touch it since it is slick. It is certainly not "conditioned" since it cannot absorb into the leather or vinyl portion of your seats. Bottom line is the industry has too many vague definitions as to exactly what "conditioning" is.
Leather is made soft in the tanning process and then sealed. You cannot add oils back through the urethane topcoat of protected leather. Leather becomes hard if it loses its needed hydration. Dry leather shrinks and feels hard. Much the same way a chamois gets hard when it is dry. Rehydrate the chamois and it becomes soft again. Rehydrate unprotected leather seats and they should soften to the degree designed in the original tanning process. Think about it.
I never use products that contain neat's-foot, mink, or other oils, silicone, aloe, or any other odd, useless item, but often the labels doesn't tell you what is in the bottle. This includes Leatherique, Lexol, 303 Protectant, Armor All, Zaino, etc., etc. In my experience, these products do nothing but sit on top of the urethane top coating until your clothing wipes them off. In the meantime, they collect dust and dirt which is then ground into your seats and stitching as you slide across the seat getting in and out much like sandpaper. 90% of your seat damage comes from this!
In fact, page 212 of the C7 Corvette owner's manual makes it clear that the only way to clean and treat the seats or other "leather" areas is with water and a mild soap - no cleaners or conditioners! This includes dashboard, door inserts, etc. More specifically, the manual states, "Use a soft microfiber cloth dampened with water to remove dust and loose dirt. For a more thorough cleaning, use a soft microfiber cloth dampened with a mild soap solution. Wipe excess moisture from these surfaces after cleaning and allow them to dry naturally. Never use heat, steam, or spot removers. Do not use cleaners that contain silicone or wax-based products. Cleaners containing solvents can permanently change the appearance and feel of leather or soft trim, and are not recommended. Soaking or saturating leather, especially perforated leather, as well as other interior surfaces, may cause permanent damage."
Don't you think GM would recommend leather cleaners and conditioners if the material was in fact all leather?
The only real, non-coated leather I have seen in a non-exotic car in the past 20 years is a Ford "Big Ranch" Truck. That is it! Take a look at one someday that is a year or more old. The seats will be a complete mess! Being uncoated everything soaks into them such as beer, soda, spew, jizz, body oil, urine, grease, dirt, etc. You will be happy the leather in your car is "coated" after seeing this. Remember, the reason this stuff doesn't soak into your seat is the same reason "conditioners" will not soak in so don't use them!
I vacuum the leather in my C6, Ferrari 360 and Lambo Gallardo and wipe it down with a wrung out watered (damp) towel weekly. This includes dashboard, door inserts, etc. When they get dirty, I clean them with delicate soap like Woolite (10 to 1 ratio) or a highly diluted all-purpose cleaner, A very nice, gentle product is Leathermasters Foam Cleaner. You can buy it at AutoGeek, Amazon, EBay, etc. Leather Master Foam Cleaner is suitable for all leather types including Aniline, Protected, Synthetic (vinyl), Nubuck and Suede Leather.
After cleaning, and before the seats dry, get the cleaning product out/off the seats with a wet towel. Not a damp towel, a wet, but not dripping wet, towel. Finish by wiping off and sucking up the moisture from the wet towel with a dry towel. Use several dry towels if necessary. The key is to absorb as much of the cleaner as possible. This ensures all of the cleaner was removed. Just a damp towel for normal maintenance and cleaning. That is it! Your leather will look like brand new for many years to come! My C6 is ten years old and the seats still look like brand new!
You are going to read a lot of people who make comments disagreeing with me. Just conduct the two above tests and make your own decisions. Does a drop of water soak into the seat or just sit on top until it evaporates? Does the backing of your seat material on the side pieces (bolster) have foam or cloth on the back? Remember, your seats may feel softer after applying a "conditioner," but go back in a day or two and see if they still feel that way. Once the conditioner dries on the seats and on your hands, this softness is gone!
If Corvette seats are 100% leather, why has GM changed their description on MSRP window sticker as "Trim, Leather" and why do they recommend against use of leather cleaners and conditioners? Always keep in mind that you’re dealing with the finished coating on the leather and not with the leather hide itself.
Last example how leather needs nothing more than a simple wipe with a damp cloth. You know that fine leather and recliner couch you own? When was the last time you conditioned it with Lexol, Latherique, Zaino, etc.? Never! And I bet it still looks like brand new. How could this be if you need to smear leather conditioner and cleaners all over it all the time? Truth be known....do nothing and it will last forever!!!! Enuf said!
Read this if you are still skeptical: http://togwt1980.blogspot.com/2013/1...aning-and.html
10-11-2017, 03:00 PM
#16
Instructor
Thanks for the Info on Seat Care Rob 4092xx I have used leather conditioner in the past, thinking ( but not very wisely) that this would keep seats looking better longer. Your article makes a lot of sense and will help a lot of people in not what to do when cleaning Synthetic Leather seats.