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[ANSWERED] Thoughts on C&D ZR1 vs GT2RS

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[ANSWERED] Thoughts on C&D ZR1 vs GT2RS

Old 09-28-2018, 12:09 PM
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jvp
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Default [ANSWERED] Thoughts on C&D ZR1 vs GT2RS

The original question is here.

keagan asked:
I would like to know what are your thoughts on the outcome of C&D test against the GT2RS. They mentioned the A8 not being very fast and Ive read that the tires for the car tested were fairly used. This is not the Vettes first rodeo like this. The last time we were out of alignment with rear caster. How do you stop these hiccups from getting to the Halo car on the world stage?
Tadge answered:
As you know, Corvettes get quite a lot of automotive media attention. It is a broadly available car that serves as a benchmark against which others are measured. The media have challenging schedules to manage, especially with rare cars and fixed publishing deadlines. The Editors have to be quick on their feet to spot story ideas and comparison tests that will spark readers' interest. Corvettes are not advertised much -- our customers are way too savvy to be swayed by a TV or print ad. So we depend on third-party reviews to get the story of the cars out to interested customers. Bottom line is that we like to be included whenever we can and we don't always get a lot of lead time to prep cars. As the story itself references, we were juggling cars for Lightning Lap and this comparo... and that is just Car and Driver. Many other media outlets have been (and are) urgently requesting access to Corvettes and the ZR1 in particular.

Should we have put new tires on the car? Probably. We looked at them and decided they still had sufficient wear left for this test. In addition, we shipped a fresh set to C/D, but the timing didn't work out for them to be installed and tested. Tight deadlines, as I mentioned.

What about the trans? It is true that the response time for a manually commanded shift on our torque-converter 8-speed automatic takes longer than the 7-speed DCT. That is a fair criticism. On the positive side, our trans is generally smoother and more refined in daily driving. These are trade-offs between transmission types. On the track, left to their own shifting intelligence, the transmissions' shift speeds and overall performance are very close between the two.

As for the rest of the article? My take is that it was fair. It was a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. Philosophically, the ZR1 is closer to a highly contented 911 Turbo than the GT2 RS. Of the 20-odd 911 models, the RS cars are the most extremely track-oriented. Exotic features like fixed seat backs and water injection (GT2 RS) require unusual accommodation by the owner. For the most part, their only concessions to street driving are legally mandated ones. The car is also expensive, rare and difficult to acquire. As Car and Driver noted about the car, "It is not a daily driver." The ZR1, like all Corvettes, is a well-rounded machine -- capable of incredibly fast laps on the track while remaining perfectly livable on the street. We can't win them all, and as the article said the GT2 RS won a narrow victory this round...
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Old 09-29-2018, 12:29 PM
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A good Saturday read and very diplomatic. Have to admit, I am bit surprised and Tadge's take on media in the sense that he expressed high interest in their coverage and I thought otherwise. If he says fair than I go with that. Nice way of pointing out these are two different cars.
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Old 09-29-2018, 02:01 PM
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Great response as always. I understand that GM has a limited test fleet but I'd have some fresh tires mounted on wheels and ready to go. Especially for any media event that has a timed lap component.
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Old 09-29-2018, 03:17 PM
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I thought that was a fair assessment but think that GM needs to more proactive in ensuring that the testers have fresh tires to work with; no excuses. IMHO PDK is the best automated manual in the business and that includes Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:05 PM
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Here's a thought. A tester comes back from the media, it immediately gets new brake pads and tires, goes on the alignment rack, then receives a full service What are we talking here? Day? Day and a half to do this? The cost is minimal and you're not getting bad press about showing up with a tired set of tires on the car. Just do it
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Old 09-30-2018, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bcmarly View Post
I thought that was a fair assessment but think that GM needs to more proactive in ensuring that the testers have fresh tires to work with; no excuses. IMHO PDK is the best automated manual automatic in the business and that includes Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren.
Fixed it for you.
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Old 09-30-2018, 11:56 AM
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Very good response, but I agree with Poor-sha and bcmarly, if you rely on auto mags to promote your car, then you make sure that every time they get one to test, you have brand new tires applicable for the test conditions; not tires that seem like they still have enough miles on them(?).

Last edited by Too-Fast; 09-30-2018 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 09-30-2018, 08:28 PM
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Thanks Tadge! Great answer! I like how he has stated they won this round... Bring on the next gen vette! I wonder if the New vette and high end Porsche’s will be on par performance wise or edge them out.

Last edited by keagan; 10-01-2018 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 10-02-2018, 07:54 PM
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The reality is the ZR1 has great track capability, but it is not a purpose built track car that is street legal like the RS is. Porsche is making just 1,000 of them and they are all sold to those on the "list", while GM will make at least 3,000 ZR1's, and at an MSRP of 60-70% less, and pretty much anyone with at least $125k to spend on a car can have one if they choose to.
It is interesting that the Porsche real advantage is hp to weight ratio and the added traction a rear engine car has off the line.
In the Lightning Lap, the ZR1 lost more due to the new Michelin race spec PS tires it had compared to the ZR1's PS2's.
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Speednet View Post
Fixed it for you.
Do you not understand the difference?
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Old 10-05-2018, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by LIStingray View Post
The reality is the ZR1 has great track capability, but it is not a purpose built track car that is street legal like the RS is. Porsche is making just 1,000 of them and they are all sold to those on the "list", while GM will make at least 3,000 ZR1's, and at an MSRP of 60-70% less, and pretty much anyone with at least $125k to spend on a car can have one if they choose to.
It is interesting that the Porsche real advantage is hp to weight ratio and the added traction a rear engine car has off the line.
In the Lightning Lap, the ZR1 lost more due to the new Michelin race spec PS tires it had compared to the ZR1's PS2's.
lol. More lame assed excuses from Corvette owners. The ZR1 suddenly isn't a track car! Really? Are you kidding me? That ugly *** wing is for the parking lot at Walmart??? What a pathetic statement. Of course it's a track car. The Z06 was to be an all out track car, and the ZR1 even more so. As for production numbers, Porsche is building as many GT2RS cars as demands wish - no limits on production.

What really should be noted here is the fact that the Porsche beat the Corvette by nearly 2 seconds with a 55 hp DISADVANTAGE.

The Corvette did beat the rest of the field, including a 720S and Ford GT, which is admirable, but for the love of God, pay Porsche the respect that they deserve and leave it at that. As for the transmission : admit that you should use the ZF 8 speed unit that tons of other manufacturers are using to compete with the PDK.
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Old 10-05-2018, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by AZ Car Guy View Post


Do you not understand the difference?
I think the "correction" guy was attempting to make the point that the PDK is a dual-clutch transmission, as opposed to the automated manual transmission (also known as F1 transmission) used in the Ferrari F430, for example, as well as the 2002-06 Maserati Coupe/Spyder and 2001-06 BMW M3. The dual-clutch transmissions have proven to be more durable and reliable than the single-clutch automated manuals were.
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Old 10-09-2018, 01:44 PM
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The GT2RS, as Tadge points out, is pretty distant from a comp to the ZR1. They are merely both the "top" models for each line. The 911 Turbo is definitely the comparable car you can live with. ZR1 is pretty much a gas and oil maintenance type of car anyone can buy. I think the ZR1 is really comparable to a working mans Mclaren at this stage, in that they are highly capable yet also strangely civil when asked to do so.

Good answer from Tadge, but I am definitely perplexed as to how these press cars are notoriously under-managed. I think it's just GM's mark on how they view the Corvette...it's a Silverado, a Malibu, or any other money maker in the lineup. If anything, I feel the Corvette team themselves often fight for more, but on the corporate end and especially the marketing side...GM doesn't want to build that legacy as powerfully as Porsche does. Were Corvette its own brand, maybe...but...that's a whole different theoretical conversation at that point. Maybe someday.

Last edited by K.I.T.T.; 10-09-2018 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:52 PM
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Very perspective considerations and I think it comes down to sales models differences which I covered a while back.
I think both brands know what they are doing.

The "germans" like Porsche and Mercedes rely on the export model which implies higher marketing budgets and focus especially for the US "luxury segment" which is still their #1 market. So admittedly, their "story is better" but they do pass those cost to customers...

I think Corvette has figure out "the story" is important up to a certain point and at a certain cost (see nurburing times...) and let the car itself do the selling...
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DDSLT5 View Post
lol. More lame assed excuses from Corvette owners. The ZR1 suddenly isn't a track car! Really? Are you kidding me? That ugly *** wing is for the parking lot at Walmart??? What a pathetic statement. Of course it's a track car. The Z06 was to be an all out track car, and the ZR1 even more so. As for production numbers, Porsche is building as many GT2RS cars as demands wish - no limits on production.

What really should be noted here is the fact that the Porsche beat the Corvette by nearly 2 seconds with a 55 hp DISADVANTAGE.

The Corvette did beat the rest of the field, including a 720S and Ford GT, which is admirable, but for the love of God, pay Porsche the respect that they deserve and leave it at that. As for the transmission : admit that you should use the ZF 8 speed unit that tons of other manufacturers are using to compete with the PDK.
There's no Porsche disadvantage here. The ZR1 is an embarrassingly overweight sportscar. Do the math. The Porsche has a lower weight to power ratio than the ZR1 does. Additionally, that extra 55 horsepower in the ZR1 is academic/useless the moment you hit the brakes approaching the corners and while you're traversing the corners.

I'm no Porsche fan, but the reality is the ZRI could use some time at fat camp.
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Old 10-11-2018, 01:17 AM
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You like them skinny then...what prevents you from putting a ZR1 on a diet...?
Also, the weight delta between a ZR1 and GT2RS is less than let out to be...
Get a 1ZR package and take out infotainment/OnStar, A/C, put in skinny seats. 3K max.... 1.5K if you do the work yourself...
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Telepierre View Post
You like them skinny then...Absolutely. what prevents you from putting a ZR1 on a diet.?..Skill-wise? Nothing. Cash-wise, other toys soaking up my money.
Also, the weight delta between a ZR1 and GT2RS is less than let out to be...
Get a 1ZR package and take out infotainment/OnStar, A/C, put in skinny seats. 3K max.... 1.5K if you do the work yourself...
My '69 is 2750#, without gutting the car. It retains p/s, p/b, t&t column, radio, factory interior, etc. It's a factory non-A/C car, and I understand A/C is a must with most buyers, so my car has a slight weight advantage there, and I don't have all the current air bags (weight) in my car, but I also don't have the luxury of an aluminum frame (yet) or carbon fiber and magnesium components.

Weight has a snowballing effect on things. Once you add extra weight to a car, you then need heavier structures, heavier springs, bigger/heavier brakes to stop the heavier car, bigger/heavier tires to control the car, and bigger/more hp engine to move all that extra mass.Weight is the enemy.
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Old 10-11-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by K.I.T.T. View Post
Good answer from Tadge, but I am definitely perplexed as to how these press cars are notoriously under-managed.
I don't know how GM doles out their press fleet cars, but I worked for a few years on the press side in the automotive industry, and I know MOST major manufacturers don't do their own in-house management of the press fleet vehicles. They're farmed out to third parties that take care of the cars when returned by journalists. Most of these third parties manage multiple brands, I know in my area there's only 3 major fleet management companies and they manage like 50 different automotive brands between them.

I also don't know if GM has their own internal team managing the Corvette, as I suspect it's unlikely. Typically the marketing team or someone on the marketing team would ping the third party fleet management company to find out where the car is and who has it, and then they (the fleet management) would schedule for when the car would return, service, and send to a magazine like C&D for test.

In the past, I would communicate with the marketing manager of a specific make and model for a car, say "hey, I've got some free cycles and want to review this car." Then they would work their magic, and 2-3 weeks later I would get an email from the fleet management company to come pick up the car for review. And they'll tell me "you've got 3 days with the car. We'll need it back by this time because so-and-so magazine has dibs next." Or sometimes I'd get sent to a location where they've gathered multiple cars as managed by the fleets, and the manufacturer would send marketing reps and engineers to that same spot to walk us through various functions and features of the car, but the cars themselves are handled by the third party.

There ARE a few exceptions. At one event I attended, Lotus sent their own cars and engineers and marketing guys. The cars all came in a trailer with their people, and they did all the touching and handling. Unfortunately that was also a cluster, as 2 out of the 3 Lotus Exige 240Ses stopped working after about 3 hours on track. But I suspect that's independent of whether or not third party fleet management companies handled the car, as those Lotus Exige Ses ran great while working, but they're finicky and has typical British built quality. I suspect the smaller manufactures like Lotus don't go through the third party fleets.
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