racebum

this is what i have for rear fill in my 4runner

https://www.rakuten.com/shop/dynamic...TRAINTEGRA602/

for the price they are really good. i would not think twice about using these to blend with the krx2. they are slightly more tame which is great for the rear fill. it allows them to blend and not be heard over the front.

racebum

did you build enclosures? the .39 qts on these REALLY lends itself to being in an enclosure rather than an infinite baffle design like most car doors.

in the correct enclosure that speaker should be able to take 25v @ 1khz. if it starts beating itself to death @ 80hz it likely needs an enclosure. morel changed the design of the elate and hybrid which are the car versions for this very reason. higher Q and the ability to recover under power without an enclosure.

what you have are a home hi-fi driver and those can work well in a car but the enclosures have to be correct and you need to do some experimenting with crossover points. if you already calculated the zobel that should help flatten the impedance spike. a simple 6db/oct coil at your prefered point would be my choice. minimizes phase issues you can run into with 12db+ oct xovers

Vet Interested

Please educate me. I need it! If the rear speakers are only for fill, why spend $$$ on them or even have them? Seems to me the true sound comes from the front doors. Why have the rear speakers at all?? And if you did replace the rear speakers, would you need an amp to drive them? (I replaced the head unit with a Kenwood DNX890 about three years ago which made a big difference in my crappy Bose system). Sorry for hijacking the thread...
Thanks for the info.

racebum

timing is one. rear speakers create presence. helps create a sound that's all around you. what you need is #1 a speaker that isn't annoying #2 can handle reasonable power and #3 is tuned correctly in the install.

in most cases people amplify the rear to have more control over the system. a good amp can get the front so loud you could not blend them well with deck power and you can not dsp them with deck power which means no time alignment

in a simple lower powered lower cost system with a 3ch amp you easily can run the rear off the deck. you just give up the before mentioned

rear speakers are great ! i love having them. it's just the front stage is more important. that however does not mean the rear isn't important

TorchRedFred

Thanks Racebum, I am putting these on the top of my list for now. I was surprised that the 5-1/4's were more than the 6.5's though. I will probably wait a week or so before I actually order anything.

TurboLX

I have very rigid door adapter plates for the mudbass and XTC rear baffles. This goes a long way toward controlling cone motion. The resulting "enclosure" is smallish, but not rigid. My experience has been that a slightly undersized mid bass enclosureis way better than none at all. I don't need the front mids to play too low since I have plenty of subwoofer capacity in the upper range.

The crossover is -12dB both ways with a zobel to match impedance and output to the tweeters. I have large format tweeters in the upper door location. The distance to the mid seems to make it no issue with the second order crossover network.

My sub is in the process of changing from a JL 10w6v2 to a Dayton 15" HO.

TorchRedFred

Some argue that rear fill is unnecessary and that might be true. It's basically a matter of preference if you want it or not. I prefer to have it and think that it does sound better. But I will tell you also, that I have been listening to my sound system with the rear speakers off lately because the rear speakers are not of the same quality as my fronts. And for now the rear speakers are doing more harm than good to the sound in my car. That's why, if you do use rear speakers, you want them to be of decent quality so that they don't add any negative or annoying sounds to the audio. A bad or cheap set of rear speakers will bring down the overall sound quality of your system and in that case you may be better off with out them. Many people do easily get by with running only a good set of front speakers and a sub, and can still create a great sound system. In my case, running only fronts and a sub right now, most people would tell me it sounds great and would have no idea that I am running only the fronts and no rear speakers. But I do think it would be even better with a decent set for the rears.

Vet Interested

I have considered adding an amp and remove the Bose thumpers but then i would probably need a sub (which might add interior heat) and I do not want to lose the rear cargo space since I do drive some long road trips between shows. (I have a rear divider which also shrinks the rear area some). I will adjust the rears in and out and see what it sounds like. If I don't have an amp to drive the rears it seems like a waste to replace them and run them off the Kenwood head unit but I could be wrong...again!

02BlownZ06

100% agree. Let's take a step back in time in the evolution of car audio. I stepped into the picture in the mid eighties. We were still just slapping a pair of 6 x 9's in the rear deck with an AM/FM cassette deck for a head unit and some would call that good. The next step was to add a 7 band equalizer/power booster. Man, when you had that you were uptown. You could hit the boost button on the power booster and impress all your friends with it. Set your EQ to a smiley face and crank the crap out of it. And we thought we had something! The point is a lot of early car audio actually emanated from the rear and rear only. Adding front speakers was an additional luxury. Then you started hearing about subwoofers and outboard amplifiers. I was one of the early ones in my town to put a pair of 10" subs in infinite baffle in the trunk behind the rear seat with an amp powering them and an amp on the 6x9's. I eventually added front speakers and a 7 band equalizer/preamp with a built in electronic X-over and the very first Alpine CD player, the 5900 which had Sony guts and was an add on between the head unit and your preamp. It was $600 at the time which was a boatload of money. Anyone remember those days??

Anyway, I come from a vintage era where you relished an immersive sound experience in your car which originally came from the rear in a lot of cars and I still like that immersive type of sound, albeit with a front soundstage and rear fill. Call me old fashioned but I still prefer it and for the reasons Racebum cited.

Vet Interested

Now that you mention it I remember my 69 Charger had 6x9's in the rear and a reverberator. Sounded like a echo chamber but we liked it!

racebum

smallish isn't always terrible in a car as it is in a room. in a room a speaker in a small sealed enclosure may have an f3 that's 10-20hz higher than a .707 volume. in a car, that goes out the window with cabin gain. what does happen however is you can raise the overall Q which somewhat defeats the purpose of using lower qts drivers in the first place.

a zobel doesn't match impedance, it flattens the curve. when someone says a nominal 4ohm mid it may well read 20ohms at one frequency and 4 at another. this has a wild effect on passive crossover design and is one reason theoreticals aren't accurate. a zobel attempts to correct the impedance spike that usually starts climbing into the resonance frequency as also slowly the other direction as the frequency climbs due to inductance. what does this really mean in practice? it means with a zobel you usually have a lower frequency coming out of the mid with the same passive crossover vs not using a zobel on a low pass design

speaker manufacturers actually measure sweeps when designing these. a theoretical 4ohm 2200hz linkwitz uses a 9.05uf cap and .58mh coil. at 5 ohms those values are 7.24uf and .72mh. pretty wild change with a single ohm isn't it? if you have the ability to do precise measurements you can figure out what values you need to get a certain drop at a certain frequency. 6db on the woofer lowpass and 12 on the tweeter high are the easiest to design, technically 6 on the tweeter would be as well but power handling is reduced

if you insist on using parts express, madisound, meniscus and the other hobbyist stores keep in mind it's an uphill battle. you can get better raw drivers for a better price than complete sets but you give up the engineering that's specific to autosound and spend a LOT of time tinkering with crossover design. going active is the single best thing you can do with hobbyist drivers as you get rid of the problems with phase shift and you get rid of the problem of trying to figure out just what frequencies your crossovers are actually working at.


ps. why would you give up a w6v2 which can be such an accurate sub for a dayton ho? you're giving up SQ for spl. use multiple w6s if you align them to .707 qtc sealed they are extremely accurate. if it's a space consideration a pair of 12w6 v3s will handily out perform a 15ho. off the top of my head i want to say the 12w6v3 hits .707 in 1.44cuft net, it's either that or 1.52, can't remember honestly.

a claimed 92.8db efficiency, small box and large cone scare me. that's usually a recipe for resonance

TurboLX

This is all great theory that gets screwed up in practice to some extent no matter how you slice it in the car. Unfortunately, even an autosound "optimized" crossover has to be built upon some assumptions for installation. Moving the mid and tweet further apart may have a bigger impact on their interaction than worrying about phase shift from a 6dB vs 12dB slope. Then dump in reflections, speaker orientation, and obstacles (passengers) in the way and lots of stuff is uglier than theory in the car. We end up just binning the final adjustments into the DSP/EQ/amp gains when we're done anyway.

See above, but at least I'm starting with good quality raw drivers and crossover components before the errors pile up from the terrible listening environment (compared to a home).

I tried a full active crossover network in this car before with the same speakers (both in conventional tweeter and HLCD layouts) and wasn't blown away. I honestly prefer the sound I got from my passive network this time around. It also let me bridge channels for more available power on the midbass vs needing dedicated channels for each driver.

I ran a Dayton 10" HO in my TBSS and loved it, so I'm not afraid to use their 15" HO in this car. The enclosure for two 12w6's would be much bigger and the drivers would cost 4x the Dayton. I don't think there's a good return on that investment here. I'll have about 2 ft^3 for the 15, so I can even add a port later if I want and make it work.

racebum

oh i agree. speaker placement and timing are really the big deals in car audio. more so than almost anything else when it comes to the speakers you choose. it's a battle i'm contemplating in my own daily driver. the 4runner has the tweeter and woofer about 18" apart and it creates a tweeter forward sound. i've tinkered to blend it where i can but the correct fix is a DSP and time correction on the tweeter specifically. the reflection problem i have would vanish. i mic'd the car and used the deck time correction on the 5 points but the front is measured as one rather than individually as it should be. with some tracks you hear the tweeter before the rest of the music. it's very subtle but it's there

TorchRedFred

I see the Morel Hybrid Integra 502 coaxial for $439 on Amazon. I have some Amazon points I could use. What do you think? Overkill for the rear?

racebum

i would be inclined to hit up dynamic autosound and see if they would do the 502 tempo ultra for 199 like they do the 6.5. very high chance the owner will say yes

hybrid is better. it's a bit more mellow. can take more power. just not sure if you would hear $240 of difference when used as a rear

02BlownZ06

Great point. I have tinkered using Parts Express a lot just for fun and have gotten some speaker builds to turn out OK but that's about it.

02BlownZ06

My humble opinion, that is not overkill. Think about it. The weakest link in a high end system is often the speakers, and even as rear fill you still hear them. Do you want to add additional substandard sound? I don't. If you have to skimp and add something cheaper they will hopefully add more than they will hurt but do you want to take that chance? Eliminate every possible weak link. It is the progression of our hobby and how you build a system over time.

02BlownZ06

The good old days!

Vet Interested

We were easy to please!

TorchRedFred

Ok, I know I should not of, but I splurged and ordered the Morel Hybrid Integra 502's for the rear. $439 shipped on Amazon. Definitely not cheap but that was definitely the best price I found online. Everywhere else they were over $500. I know the difference between these and the Morel Tempo Ultra's may not be worth the difference for the rear fill, but I just wanted to get a nice set that I could hold on to for the future if I ever sell my car I can pull these out. Also, I sold my original Focal Auditor's to a forum member, so that money is going towards these too. I know they are not the 602 components, but still looking forward to getting these installed and hearing them.