TedDBere

The SCCA July Fastrac lists the C6 Z06 in SS for 2007! The Viper was also added FWIW.

Jason

Damn.

gonzalezfj

I had heard about this unofficially. Nice to hear it has been confirmed.

I guess that means I will have to prepare my C6Z and put the C5Z out to pasture as my daily driver.

Viper-size rubber (345 rears) is not available at this time, so if they have to run with 325s in the rear they will be at a disadvantage.

Will the C6Z be faster than a C5Z around an autocross course? SCCA doesn't think so. We'll see.

Rod McGeorge's ASP C6Z was fast at the Peru National Tour, but then again it had been breathed upon by Danny Popp.

Frank Gonzalez

AU N EGL

I also read for CLub racing there is discussion to move the Touring classes T1, T2 & T3, down one class i.e. make Current T1 to T2, to make room for more High HP showroom stock cars. ZO6, Viper Comp Coupe, 997

and some World Challange Cars to Production B and D classes ??

talon95

Particularly since the national SCCA autox courses are getting slower, tighter, and busier, the Elise is likely the fastest SS car right now anyway. Kinda irrelavent if the C6Z goes in.

Dave G.

RAFTRACER

Corvettes will not be able to be competitive is Solo 2 if they continue their course speed/size degradation. Really a shame, maybe Chevrolet should sponsor some SCCA events and things could change (since the SCCA is highly politically motivated). I am finding that I am having less and less fun @ SCCA National Events and I firmly believe that the Solo 2 National Championships in Topeka this year is going to SUCK. I still remember fondly my first Nationals trip to Salina, 3rd gear in the '72 LT-1 car doing 90 +, having a big 'ole time. It is a shame that the SCCA Solo2 program has turned into what it has

XPC5R

Course design issues aside, I'm glad they are letting SS be what it was envisioned for, the fastest (even if pricey) street cars available.

I think the Porsche GT3 has the best shot against the Elise, it is not a large car, and with a short wheel base and great drive off the corners, it will be tough to beat in good hands. The C6Z may be too handicapped with the small front wheels, at least the viper has 18x10's I think.

TedDBere

At least at Devens they tried to make a high speed course on day 1. I think Frank's comments last year paid off...unfortunately it rained and that cancelled out the high speed stuff.

BTW Danny I'm finally going to get to meet you at the DC Pro. Aaron moved us to SM2. Like it wasn't bad enough getting beat by Pat in SS now we have to get clubbed by Danny in SM2!

I'm afraid now that the Elise is allowed in SM2 that the vette is running out of places to play. But I did hear they may actually be contemplating moving the non-Z06 C5 to AS...so Frank, don't get rid of your FRC yet!

RAFTRACER

[The in-car video I saw from someones car on sccaforums didn't look very Corvette friendly................................ .I think I'll buy a shifter kart if I am going to continue to play the Solo 2 game, at least that way I can be on the throttle alot more

RX7 KLR

Not sure if weather played a part but the SS Elise did beat ASP.

Solofast

The C6Z isn't as big an issue, since it will likely be pretty competitive with the C5Z. Really the exta power isn't going to matter all that much, since we can't use all of the power we have on these chinzy slow courses anyway.

I have a lot more of a problem with the Elise competing against the Corvettes. What we have in that case is a fundamental problem of two very different types of cars. While it is possible for two different cars to run similar lap times on a particular course, the actual results now become course dependent. On a open course with several slow corners the Corvette will be faster. On a constant speed course that demands agility or a narrow car, the Lotus will rule... The best and historically successful classing comes when SIMILAR cars are classed together. I don't have a problem with the Vipers running against the C5 and C6Z's, they are all big powerful cars and that makes it simply a matter of the better, but similar car having an advantage. In any case the advantage won't be that big and it won't depend on the weather or the type of course.

Car classing by the SCCA is more art than science, and, frankly the club gets it wrong more often than right. I don't think it is wise to run a small very limiited production nimble car against a bigger heavy, more powerful car. I am saying that keeping in mind that I have been on the good end of that kind of deal in the past, so I know exactly what I am talking about here. I am so sick and tired of SCCA saying that cars of "similar performace" are classed together based on results... yada yada yada... when the truth is that different courses produce different results in different cars. You don't do this to get to nationals and find out that "oh, by the way, your car is completely outcalssed on this course, you should have stayed home"....

What will happen is that within a year or so, nobody will bother with any of the Corvettes or Vipers in SS and the class numbers will crash. The Elise, as nice as it is, is not a relatively popular car, after all, it is essentially a minimalist track car, and the fast Corvette drivers will just go to other classes or back to NCCC. Note that Erik is gone from the class, he can see the writing on the wall here....The Stupid Car Club of America has done this kind of Class Demolition on numerous occasions, and now it is doing it in SS. Look what happened in ESP last year. We had fundamentally different cars running against each other, pony cars and rally cars. On many days they may have had similar lap times. Then it rained and the rally cars kicked the crap out of the pony cars. That was only the most recent example of stupid misclassing that the SEB has come up with. So what did they do, because they were fast in the rain, they move the rally cars to BSP. Ok, now if it rains in Topeka, which would you rather be in on that surface, A BSP C4, or a rally car? Let's see, 4WD vs an overpowered RWD car, in the rain??? What they really need to do, assuming that there are sufficient numbers, there should be a class for high performace rally cars. They are different enough from other cars to represent a severe problem in fair classing based on the effects of weather or course design, and therefore should run together. There are over 1,000 cars at nationals, a couple of new classes won't make any difference, but it will be better for the competition and the sport if we make sure that similar cars run against each other.

Most people won't say anything to the SEB or the SCCA, they will just vote with their feet... Fair classing is using cars of similar size, and configuration, not cars that a group of guys sitting in a hotel room decide are "about as fast as each other"...

The final word that you will hear ad nausem from the club is "the SCCA doesn't guarantee that every car will be competitive, there aren't enough classes for that". That is true, but... if you look at the entry numbers in a given class, it makes no sense to destroy a healthy class with a low production car like the Elise, when they could have simply left it in ASP where it was.

talon95

IMO, voting with your feet is the best way to get them to listen. All they care about is participation. Class participation goes down, then they listen. I'm going to run my car this year (C5Z) at nationals, but that'll probably be the last time.

And I agree 100% with what you guys are saying. I've made similar comments about the Elise being in the same class as the Vette's and other similar cars. I have no interest in showing up to an event only to see I have no chance because of the course design. Course dependency will always exist to some extent between different cars, but it's night and day with the Elise.

Also, Danny, I watched that Devens video. Looked like slalom, turn, slalom, turn, repeat... to me. I'm planning to go out to Denver and give them another chance to put out a decent balanced course. And honestly, I can't stand busy courses like that in any car. Drove a Miata for 4 years, complained about them then, still do now...

Dave G.

RAFTRACER

No , but the course sure did. Narrow cars with good speed maintainence was advantageous

RAFTRACER

Solofast is wise beyond his years..........Very good insight to what is going on lately. This coupled with courses that are at least in this part of the country "tighter than crap" have made playing with a Corvette a whole lot less fun. The C6z next year will not enjoy any advantage because it will never be able to use its primary benefit over the C5,Elise,GT3 whatever....... If your car is big and heavy and you just weave through the cones without over accelerating or braking (for more than 1 sec.), and the gates are at or near minimum were car size is paramount, you will be at a distinct disadvantage. Rally cars in BSP is almost as dumb as in ESP. Just as Solofast said , as soon as it rains it is no longer a competition , if the rally car does not win something is wrong . Topeka 's new facility ought to be alot of fun this year for the BSP and SS Corvettes with other cars in their class that are fundamentally different , in such away that they put power down signicantly better ( I here the new place is REALLY slick). I am sure I won't have too much fun in SM2 either.............Thank God there are other sanctioning bodies and other venues to go play at, I honestly believe it is going to get worse before it gets better with the SCCA.

gonzalezfj

I never had an FRC. It was a 98 Coupe and it's history: traded in on the C6Z.

Frank

talon95

The new site isn't too bad once some rubber is down (nothing like Forbes when it was rubbered in though). You just don't want to run 1st heat on Tue/Wed.

Dave G.

JiminVirginia

Well, we're mixing three different issues in this thread: the addition of the C6ZO6 and Viper, course design trends, and SCCA Solo management issues.

I'm only in my third year in this sport, so I'll defer to the veterans on the course design and SCCA Solo management issues. It is certainly true that it can be depressing to drive up to an event in the morning and immediately see that the course design is dictating the winner before the first heat is underway. I've most often been running a MINI S is STX, rather than my C5 ZO6, so I see this from the other side of the issue from time to time--welcoming the chance to compete on a course that isn't quite so wide open. Even when running the MINI S, believe it or not, there are still courses that are just too tight to favor me. I guess there are lessons in this for course designers everywhere: design for mutliple car types.

As far as the C6 ZO6 is concerned, though, I will be running my C5 ZO6 with increasing frequency in the future, and I can only welcome the C6 counterpart and the Viper to SS. Variety makes it interesting. And it's still up to me to drive well. So let's have fun out there.

XPC5R

GM could have solved this by producing the Stingray concept on the Solstice/Sky Kappa platform. A small, high powered roadster (basically a 3/4 scale C6) would work really well.

TedDBere

Here's a link to Grant's videos. http://www.derangedkiwi.net/index.php?view=autoxvid11

Day one was in the rain, and that was the more open course, unfortunately for the Z06s. They did a good job setting up two completely different courses, not the typical "run the course backwards". Even with that the first course didn't have any spots to significantly slow the Elise down so it would have probably done well anyway.

I've posted, for a long time, my feelings that both the 1900 lb Elise and the GT3 should be in ASP, not SS. The results this year have so far demonstrated that when the Elise or GT3 win SS they also beat ASP! On the courses that have resulted in Z06 victories in SS, ASP has beaten SS. Which tells me that any course not favoring HP and torque will be an Elise/GT3 course. Which BTW represent the majority of local courses!

To me putting the Elise in SS was comparable to putting shifter carts in SS. They're too dissimiliar to be in the same class and yes there are courses where the Z06 can beat a shifter cart, it doesn't mean they should be in the same class.

gonzalezfj

IMHO, that was due to the driver more than the car. He was top dog in PAX by a considerable margin. That should tell you something.

Not to imply the Elise is not a fast SS car, but there were other SS Elises there, one driven by a former SS National Champion, and they did not beat the ASP Z06's time.

Also consider that this was only Rod McGeorge's third national event in the car. I think he is still on the learning curve; but he is a superb driver and given a little time he will figure out how to make the car go faster.

Frank Gonzalez