Best approach to catch oversteer?
01-08-2007, 12:43 AM
#41
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What is the best method to catch an oversteer due to too much gas in a turn? I've seen too many times when countersteering in an oversteer situation just snaps the car in the other direction when it hooks up again. Is that caused by too much countersteering, letting up on the gas or both?
Same approch to be used with AH/TC on and off?
Same approch to be used with AH/TC on and off?
Correction - Pause - Recovery.
The tail swings out, you countersteer. That's the Correction phase.
The car responds to your steering input and the tail stops its momentum. It's now poised to swing back the other way. That moment is the Pause. And it's your cue to begin
The Recovery. You need to get the steering wheel back to straight.
That's the basic way to look at it. This is covered in GREAT DETAIL in the book "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez/Skip Barber. Anything you ever wanted to know about car control, finding the fastest line, lift-off oversteer and throttle-on oversteer and just about everything you will encounter on the track, is covered in this book. Sounds like not many here have read it.
Well I didn't either until I totalled my Z06.Regarding saving over-rotation caused by power-on oversteer... your first try should just be *don't lift*, just keep steady on the throttle with a countersteer-pause-recovery. If that's not enough, try countersteering and breathing the throttle back to about 70%.
If you can't afford a driving school or aren't near to one... this book is the best $29.95 you'll ever spend.
01-08-2007, 03:43 AM
#42
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Nothing wrong with learning this "by the book."
Correction - Pause - Recovery.
The tail swings out, you countersteer. That's the Correction phase.
The car responds to your steering input and the tail stops its momentum. It's now poised to swing back the other way. That moment is the Pause. And it's your cue to begin
The Recovery. You need to get the steering wheel back to straight.
That's the basic way to look at it. This is covered in GREAT DETAIL in the book "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez/Skip Barber. Anything you ever wanted to know about car control, finding the fastest line, lift-off oversteer and throttle-on oversteer and just about everything you will encounter on the track, is covered in this book. Sounds like not many here have read it. Well I didn't either until I totalled my Z06.
Regarding saving over-rotation caused by power-on oversteer... your first try should just be *don't lift*, just keep steady on the throttle with a countersteer-pause-recovery. If that's not enough, try countersteering and breathing the throttle back to about 70%.
If you can't afford a driving school or aren't near to one... this book is the best $29.95 you'll ever spend.
Correction - Pause - Recovery.
The tail swings out, you countersteer. That's the Correction phase.
The car responds to your steering input and the tail stops its momentum. It's now poised to swing back the other way. That moment is the Pause. And it's your cue to begin
The Recovery. You need to get the steering wheel back to straight.
That's the basic way to look at it. This is covered in GREAT DETAIL in the book "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez/Skip Barber. Anything you ever wanted to know about car control, finding the fastest line, lift-off oversteer and throttle-on oversteer and just about everything you will encounter on the track, is covered in this book. Sounds like not many here have read it.
Well I didn't either until I totalled my Z06.Regarding saving over-rotation caused by power-on oversteer... your first try should just be *don't lift*, just keep steady on the throttle with a countersteer-pause-recovery. If that's not enough, try countersteering and breathing the throttle back to about 70%.
If you can't afford a driving school or aren't near to one... this book is the best $29.95 you'll ever spend.
This forum, and the amazing level of experience and expertise of it's members are why I keep coming back over and over.
No matter what I think I know, there are always others here that can tell me otherwise in a respectful manner. For that reason I am thankful to be a part of this forum, regardless of capacity.
01-08-2007, 09:49 AM
#43
Le Mans Master
A comment was made about driving less than 10/10 on a track being useless. That may be the case for someone working on competitive driving, but a DE is Driver's Education, and running at 8/10 (or 6/10, or whatever level) should be set by the driver's comfort level. Most of us (at least me) have to take the car home at the end of the day.
One thing's for sure: if I ever move away where I can't run at our local autocross facility (Mineral Wells), I'm going to be in for a rude awakening. It may not be the same as running a track, but it's sure not slow!
Have a good one,
Mike
01-08-2007, 10:49 AM
#44
Le Mans Master
works like a charm...even in a DD Tahoe in the rain trying to haul a__ across town like I was 5 min. ago. 
...and people try to say this has no application in the real world.
Last edited by Lancer033; 01-08-2007 at 10:57 AM.
01-08-2007, 12:23 PM
#45
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The opposite is trailing throttle oversteer which is not controlable if the back of the car is trying to swap ends. Outbraking is usually accomplished via trail braking.
Then when the throttle is applied again, the car needs to go neutral or slight and I mean very slight understeer. This will allow early throttle application on corner exit.
If the car has power on over steer, then the driver has to be perfect on the timing to apply power or he has to lift to tidy the back end up.
So there is the answer to the original question. Throttle control to stop oversteer is a major part of the driving equation. The tires have only so much traction available. So if they are spinning or sliding with throttle application on corner exit, then you either have to reduce the power on or reduce the side load from the corner.
No fast race car brakes only in a straight line. So stability under braking while turning is essential.
Later,
Lou Gigliotti LGM
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Last edited by LG Motorsports; 01-08-2007 at 12:27 PM.
01-08-2007, 07:13 PM
#46
Safety Car
Not favor trailing throttle understeer? That is exactly what the F1 teams strive for. Off throttle control so they can trail brake or out brake with the most control.
The opposite is trailing throttle oversteer which is not controlable if the back of the car is trying to swap ends. Outbraking is usually accomplished via trail braking.
Then when the throttle is applied again, the car needs to go neutral or slight and I mean very slight understeer. This will allow early throttle application on corner exit.
If the car has power on over steer, then the driver has to be perfect on the timing to apply power or he has to lift to tidy the back end up.
So there is the answer to the original question. Throttle control to stop oversteer is a major part of the driving equation. The tires have only so much traction available. So if they are spinning or sliding with throttle application on corner exit, then you either have to reduce the power on or reduce the side load from the corner.
No fast race car brakes only in a straight line. So stability under braking while turning is essential.
Later,
Lou Gigliotti LGM
The opposite is trailing throttle oversteer which is not controlable if the back of the car is trying to swap ends. Outbraking is usually accomplished via trail braking.
Then when the throttle is applied again, the car needs to go neutral or slight and I mean very slight understeer. This will allow early throttle application on corner exit.
If the car has power on over steer, then the driver has to be perfect on the timing to apply power or he has to lift to tidy the back end up.
So there is the answer to the original question. Throttle control to stop oversteer is a major part of the driving equation. The tires have only so much traction available. So if they are spinning or sliding with throttle application on corner exit, then you either have to reduce the power on or reduce the side load from the corner.
No fast race car brakes only in a straight line. So stability under braking while turning is essential.
Later,
Lou Gigliotti LGM
Lou - thanks for the explanation it's greatly appreciated
. I think I now understand the points you've made.But, I still have to differ on MS's setup requirements. When Berger and Alesi took over at Benneton they were unable to drive MS's car at full tilt (10/10ths). At 9/10ths no problem with turns. 10/10ths it swapped ends and off they went. Neither Alesi, nor Berger, could drive it.
Isn't that trailing throttle oversteer?
joel
01-08-2007, 07:25 PM
#47
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Lou - thanks for the explanation it's greatly appreciated . I think I now understand the points you've made.
But, I still have to differ on MS's setup requirements. When Berger and Alesi took over at Benneton they were unable to drive MS's car at full tilt (10/10ths). At 9/10ths no problem with turns. 10/10ths it swapped ends and off they went. Neither Alesi, nor Berger, could drive it.
Isn't that trailing throttle oversteer?
joel
. I think I now understand the points you've made.But, I still have to differ on MS's setup requirements. When Berger and Alesi took over at Benneton they were unable to drive MS's car at full tilt (10/10ths). At 9/10ths no problem with turns. 10/10ths it swapped ends and off they went. Neither Alesi, nor Berger, could drive it.
Isn't that trailing throttle oversteer?
joel
Go to Youtube and search "Michael Schumacher Driving style", and you can watch a great documentary that shows a data trace of Schumacher vs his team mate. both were great drivers, but Shui made small corrections and kept his corner speed up as he made the corrections. It is a great video that you will love watching.
I get goosebumps watching this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk2p2...elated&search=
It also helps explain how two world Class drivers can be so different. So just think how far back the rest of us are.
Then watch this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUEKm...elated&search=
Thanks
LG
Last edited by LG Motorsports; 01-08-2007 at 07:46 PM.
01-08-2007, 08:43 PM
#48
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... In an oversteer I intuitively countersteer the car, but many times the car just snaps into an opposite slide, fishtail, and then I countersteer the other direction, then the car hooks again and fishtails. ...
...I think I'm too late with straigthening the steering wheel that causes me to dart off the other way or should I keep on the gas to prevent unloading the rear?
...I think I'm too late with straigthening the steering wheel that causes me to dart off the other way or should I keep on the gas to prevent unloading the rear?
So the trick is timing when the rears regain traction in relation to your counter steer input. You control when that happens by modulating the throttle. Allow the rear tires to regain traction when they are inline with the fronts and you'll prevent the hook. I think almost everyone knows intuitively what needs to be done, it's just the timing that takes practice.
Last edited by 96CELT4; 01-08-2007 at 08:52 PM.
01-08-2007, 09:26 PM
#49
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Nothing wrong with learning this "by the book."
Correction - Pause - Recovery.
The tail swings out, you countersteer. That's the Correction phase.
The car responds to your steering input and the tail stops its momentum. It's now poised to swing back the other way. That moment is the Pause. And it's your cue to begin
The Recovery. You need to get the steering wheel back to straight.
That's the basic way to look at it. This is covered in GREAT DETAIL in the book "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez/Skip Barber. Anything you ever wanted to know about car control, finding the fastest line, lift-off oversteer and throttle-on oversteer and just about everything you will encounter on the track, is covered in this book. Sounds like not many here have read it. Well I didn't either until I totalled my Z06.
Regarding saving over-rotation caused by power-on oversteer... your first try should just be *don't lift*, just keep steady on the throttle with a countersteer-pause-recovery. If that's not enough, try countersteering and breathing the throttle back to about 70%.
If you can't afford a driving school or aren't near to one... this book is the best $29.95 you'll ever spend.
Correction - Pause - Recovery.
The tail swings out, you countersteer. That's the Correction phase.
The car responds to your steering input and the tail stops its momentum. It's now poised to swing back the other way. That moment is the Pause. And it's your cue to begin
The Recovery. You need to get the steering wheel back to straight.
That's the basic way to look at it. This is covered in GREAT DETAIL in the book "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez/Skip Barber. Anything you ever wanted to know about car control, finding the fastest line, lift-off oversteer and throttle-on oversteer and just about everything you will encounter on the track, is covered in this book. Sounds like not many here have read it.
Well I didn't either until I totalled my Z06.Regarding saving over-rotation caused by power-on oversteer... your first try should just be *don't lift*, just keep steady on the throttle with a countersteer-pause-recovery. If that's not enough, try countersteering and breathing the throttle back to about 70%.
If you can't afford a driving school or aren't near to one... this book is the best $29.95 you'll ever spend.
Can't believe no one had read this!!!! I am not a fan of T/C on the track. If the car slips and the T/C comes on, I have a hard time correcting for it. In my experience, it transfers a lot of weight.
I don't have AH so I leave the T/C off.With the active handling in full on mode, you will learn how to be smooth in this car. The smoother you are the more slip angle you will be able to use, then progress to the Comp mode.
It is very difficult for an instructor at a DE to feel comfortable with you driving at the limit of the car, much less your skill limit. Because of the performance limit of our cars, as our skill sets increase we begin to carry tremendous amounts of speed. I try to make it clear where we will likely have issues as speed is picked up and what to do if that happens. Most of all, just make sure you or the student is not driving over their head.
Last edited by Westwopper; 01-08-2007 at 09:32 PM.
01-08-2007, 10:40 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
I didn't think you could even drive a C5 with the TC on at the track. On the other hand, I don't have a problem driving with AH if you're smooth. I make all my students run with Competition mode.
01-08-2007, 11:22 PM
#51
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and a late model LX 5.0, punched out. No T/C for those guys.
01-12-2007, 10:49 AM
#52
Le Mans Master
Lou, those videos are very interesting and I think it demsonstrates a lot of Schumacher's talents but (obviously) that first video with him at Benetton is rather old. I have seen comparison data (in "Racecar Engineering", I believe) between Schumacher and Barrichello. Apparently Schumacher's Ferrari setups are a bit different than at Benetton. He actually maintained 15% throttle while braking to reduce pitching (I think it's safe to guess for other reasons as well). That alone would allow a different setup than what would normally be considered safe or fast.
01-14-2007, 06:52 PM
#53
Instructor
Whoa, Sparky!
...me f$cking around in my old Supra back in the day at Motorsport Ranch.....
http://www.boostaholic.com/supra/med...-MSR-Drift.wmv
That's the best, most responsible way to learn car control.
Me? I learned by f$cking around and powersliding that Supra everywhere on the street... and parking lots..... every time it rained, etc........ But hey, I was 19 and owned the Dallas highway races at the time too. At least I lived through it. And now, thanks to my past, I'm a badass at car control, and I can go race totally smooth and not-sideways or flip a switch in my head and go win a drift contest.
I'm just trying to tell y'all the safer way to do it (track day) where you'll still actually learn something.
Somebody suggested a driving school. Umm... a driving school won't teach you car control. They'll teach you the by the book $H!T and then they'll get scared when you get sideways because (a) they don't know you, and (b) sideways is slow. I've been a student and I've been an instructor, so take it from me. My point is, schools do have their purpose too, but it's a different one... go to a school to learn how to sit in the car, the racing line, how to heel & toe, how to go fast, etc.
Go to a track day and just screw around alone and feel around for the limit if you want to learn car control. That, and maybe a also try a wet parking lot. Preferably one without light poles or curbs or other cars.
Most importantly, make sure ALL the electronic $H!T is turned off. I don't mean that homo competitive mode. I mean the AH/TC OFF mode. The one where you hold the button down for 5 seconds in a c6 or press it once in a c5.
Andi
P.S. Sorry for the tome.
http://www.boostaholic.com/supra/med...-MSR-Drift.wmv
That's the best, most responsible way to learn car control.
Me? I learned by f$cking around and powersliding that Supra everywhere on the street... and parking lots..... every time it rained, etc........ But hey, I was 19 and owned the Dallas highway races at the time too. At least I lived through it.
And now, thanks to my past, I'm a badass at car control, and I can go race totally smooth and not-sideways or flip a switch in my head and go win a drift contest. I'm just trying to tell y'all the safer way to do it (track day) where you'll still actually learn something.
Somebody suggested a driving school. Umm... a driving school won't teach you car control. They'll teach you the by the book $H!T and then they'll get scared when you get sideways because (a) they don't know you, and (b) sideways is slow. I've been a student and I've been an instructor, so take it from me. My point is, schools do have their purpose too, but it's a different one... go to a school to learn how to sit in the car, the racing line, how to heel & toe, how to go fast, etc.
Go to a track day and just screw around alone and feel around for the limit if you want to learn car control. That, and maybe a also try a wet parking lot. Preferably one without light poles or curbs or other cars.
Most importantly, make sure ALL the electronic $H!T is turned off. I don't mean that homo competitive mode. I mean the AH/TC OFF mode. The one where you hold the button down for 5 seconds in a c6 or press it once in a c5.
Andi
P.S. Sorry for the tome.
Spring Mountain indeed teaches extreme car control. One exercise is done through a series of cones with the AH off and the instructors specifically push you beyond the limits of control. I had a ball(sideways mostly and steering with the throttle) and the novices got the chance to experience this first in a safe place without risking their car or the lives of others. Another exercise focused on avoidance and skid control with all nannies turned off including ABS. They make you do these until you demonstrate that you can control a car in an emergency, then they teach you to drive fast! (And they're
F$CKIN GOOD at it, too)
Cheers from Arizona
