Goodwood

To our surprize, my older son and I both got put into the "B" group (I-A-B-C) this time at the CGI HPDE @Gingerman on Mon. We were both pretty nervous about our readiness for this step up to B run group with only a single day's prior track experience. That apprehension went away as soon as we found we actually fit well into this group, running as fast or a bit faster than many in it. I asked my previous instructor to do a session with me to help fine tune my technique, and got him to time me on a lap with a stopwatch. I did a 1:40 lap, but did have to wait for a signal to pass from 1 guy. Not too bad for a noob on street tires and inadequate brakes!

Speaking of brakes, I think this is an area that could use improvement first. With a fresh flush with ATE Super Blue before the HPDE 2 wks ago, and a fresh bleed before this event, my pedal was getting a bit soft, and travel a bit longer as the day wore on. Right now I'm running standard Z51 brakes with the pads 21st CMC put on. Don't know what brand they are. There was a cool English guy in the paddock near me who was running Wilwoods up front, but (I think) standard 2002 Z06 brakes in back on his 02 Z.

What do you all think would be the next significant step up in braking w/o "breaking the bank", bearing in mind, I'm not a track rat (yet), and don't yet know how often my car will see track duty. I also don't want to change over pads for tracking.

Shot of me, taken by my youngest son's friend, who came along to see what this DE stuff was all about. After a quick lesson on using my camera and panning technique, he did a good job:

TRACKMAN2

i always warn new guys that your first day is not going to be you most dangerous day , neither is your second or third,,,, but once you hit your fourth or fifth, you may think your mario andretti but your not.. and may get your self in trouble you dont know how to get out of..

i agree its always better to run in the highest group you can your not going to learn anything fallowing rookies around.. besides if if you make a big mistake would you like to be surounded by experienced drivers who have seen it all before.. or people who have no idea what there doing... keep you ah in comp mode and enjoy your first year......

keep your brakes stock for now it the fear of them being spongy may save you car....
good luck

Joe_G

I use Hawk HT-10 pads (Ecklers carries them for a cheap price) front and rear and I love them. Wilwood H pads are good too I understand. I drive to and from the track on them. IMHO DON'T bother with "combo" track/street pads. They s&ck on the street and ruin your wheels with dust and s&ck on the track too in my experience.

Pads are easy to change - 2 big screwdrivers to pull the caliper toward you (pushes the piston back in), top bolt on front calipers, bottom bolt on rears, swing caliper out of the way, swap pads, swing caliper back down, put bolt back in, bolt wheel on. I can swap mine in about 30 minutes taking my time. PUMP THE BRAKES back up before you move the car.

Put on some Zo6 front brake ducts - they are about $6 each from Gene Culley. Get some brake duct hose from too if you really want to do the job - although at my level I don't have any and I don't have any braking problems. The ducts REALLY help with cooling the brakes and should get rid of that long pedal. They did for me. I did a write up with pics on how to install them if you are interested. Do a search through the history.

I bought some cheap C5 97-99 wagon wheels and Nitto 555 RII tires for track use. Makes a night and day difference. They are awesome. Again, you can drive to and from the track on these until they get bald. You can run C5 Z06 wheels which are an inch wider but they stick out in back - not a problem from what I understand. I had the wagons lying around and I use them with no problems.

If you run C5 wheels you have to buy C5 front caliper brackets from Gene Culley ($20 each I think) and C5 rotors from Napa for $25 each. Which is a good option anyway since rotors crack with track use and you can't beat the price/performance ratio of the C5 rotors.

Rob Willis

You already said you have good fluid.

So, stainless steel lines (Stoptech) and some brake ducts. Like others have said, grab the $6 Z06 extensions from a forum vendor. Then grab some high-tech hose from somebody (Racer's Wholesale, LGM, etc) and a set of spindle ducts (Phoenix, LGM, or Adam Boca is working on something there).

Try that, and go from there.

Also might want to try and find out just what brake pads you DO have on there. Might be worth upgrading, depending on what they gave you.

Bill Dearborn

The long pedal is probably due to some significant pad taper on your street pads. The pad taper along with piston knock back is increasing the pedal travel since the pads have a longer distance to travel before they hit the rotor. You can continue to live with this for a while if you change your braking habits. First, let off the throttle just a few feet more from the corner; Second, when you first apply the brake just ease onto the pedal until the pads are seated against the rotor and then increase pressure; Third, as pedal travel starts to increase either double pump the brake pedal when you apply the brake or as you are running on the straight reach over with your left foot and tap the brake pedal a couple of times before you reach the braking zone. The first two steps will tend to reduce the amount of taper you get and the third step allows you to live with the taper until you get further along.

I ran my 97 for three seasons on stock pads. My first two day HPDE with the car I had no brake pedal at all by the end of the second day and the dealer warrantied the brake pads at all 4 corners (2700 miles). The second time I went the same thing happened and I started asking some Corvette Engineers associated with GM Racing how to get around the problem. They suggested doing step 2. Step 3 I learned from a Delphi brake engineer who also writes technical articles for Stop Tech. This is his article on knockback that is posted on the Stop Tech web site:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_knockback.shtml

After 3 seasons I went with racing brake pads (for the 97,98 seasons there weren't many available) but still had the taper issue as it is due to the caliper design. The only way to get rid of it is to go with an aftermarket caliper which is why I now have Wilwood calipers in the front of my 03Z.

Bill

Aardwolf

I ran one time having to double pump the brake from taper and don't want to do that agin. Also, it's dangerous for the street. You could try swapping the pads from side to side, if that is possible on your year. Some normal street driving will wear the taper down, and make the pad OK again. You can also sand them down with garnet paper. Some of the high speed double pumpers were !

Glad you had fun!

Goodwood

Thanks for all your thoughts on this guys, but I may have overstated the part about the long pedal travel. It was longer than normal due to it going a bit soft. It wasn't anything too dramatic or anything, but I was having to stand on them pretty hard trying to slow the car after the long straights. That said, I need to find out what brand and type of pads went on when 21st CMC did the Z51 brakes on the car, and possibly get something a little more aggressive for next time out like the Hawk HP+. If that still isn't helping, then I may have to look at some bigger brakes, in front at least.

Joe_G

Steve, I would strongly not recommend the HP +. I tried them for one track event and they were terrible. A waste of money. They actually faded on me, hard pedal and minimal braking. Worse that stock pads IMHO. Get a real track pad like the HT 10 or HT 14 or Wilwood H and you will much happier, trust me.

You don't need new calipers. Spend a couple of hundred on some real track pads and you won't believe your brakes.

Combine those with some Nitto 555RII track tires and it will feel like a new car.

"Wagon Wheels" are 97-99 stock C5 wheels. They come up frequently for sale on the C5 parts for sale forum, or you can post up and ask for some. I got mine, with a set of good treaded runflats that I ran on my C5, for $500 2 years ago. I would say $50 per wheel is about the going rate and they are strong and not so heavy.

rocsvette

Adam Boca and I both run Carbotech XP10s with stock calipers and they hold up well, even at a track like CMP which eats brakes. I wouldn't run out and buy new calipers, just upgrade the pads and bed them properly before going on the track.

yakisoba

Congrats on your new hobby! Very glad you have your family involved. It really helps to have the extra support, and we all hate to be pulled different directions on a weekend.

I'll cast another vote for Carbotech pads, specifically the xp10/xp8 combination. They seem to last relatively well (several weekends on a front set, more for the backs). My setup is a C5Z06 with SS lines and stock calipers. I run el-cheapo rotors. Everything seems to last pretty well, better than it did when I was just starting out. I change pads more than I change rotors, but I do run the rotors until they crack to the edge.

Your braking technique will change as you learn, so pad wear will be different. I've not had issues with tapering, or at least not too bad.

I don't change pads to go to the track, as I like to think of the pads/rotors as a system. If I changed one for street, I'd likely change the other.

Good luck and remember to use all the track!

NoOne

I've switched to the Wildwood H's and they have good taper characteristics.

They taper less than aother pads I've run and others have run.

My biggest worry would be the drilled rotors, its too bad you can't get cheap blanks for the front.

I would invest in some good solid cooling to go along with whatever pad you get because you'll be more likely to crack.

rustyguns

i went to khumo v710's and it feels like a formula one car !!!! nitto 555 RII's are Excellent too!

sounds like your running ceramic pads ... good semi metallics are so much nicer... lotsa dust but noooo faaaade!

rustyguns

The Spark

FWIW, I'm running HP+ and they worked good for me (at my level of 3 HPDE weekends). I have DRM brake ducts, SS brake lines, and Motul fluid.

My instructor was asking what I had done to my car during our first session. He commented "you've gone with much better brakes" before I could tell him. I didn't have any problems with brake fade the entire weekend.

I will try some of the other brakes that have been mentioned. As I said, I'm new so I don't have a lot to compare to.

Going to TX World Speedway 2.9 mile ROVAL next month. Friends have told me you can hit 130+ on the front straight - so I'd better have some good brakes coming off that to the infield.

rustyguns

you did good im doing same thing who needs ***** woody baers hahahaha

21STCENTURYMUSCLECAR

Hi Steve,

You found a truly addicting sport, been doing it for 15+ years and still enjoy it just as much.

This is what you need

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...t=21st+century

Best Regards,
John Page

21STCENTURYMUSCLECAR

Hi Steve,

You found a truly addicting sport, been doing it for 15+ years and still enjoy it just as much as when I started.

This is what you need

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...t=21st+century

Best Regards,
John Page

Cobra4B

Wilwood H's last forever and barely taper. My set that I just ran VIR w/ last weekend now have 8 weekends on them.

However they're rough on rotors.