Will GM leave Detroit?
09-10-2007, 10:38 PM
#1
Team Owner
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Will GM leave Detroit?
From CFOT:
So what's the racing section think?
Given the current state of Detroit, it's really hard to get good engineers to go there.
If they leave, it will be the last nail in the coffin for the city.
PS I used to live in the area and work at GM.
I was wondering if anyone else has seen or heard anything about this news article that I've seen posted on a couple different car forums? Before people jump down my throat about trying to "stir the pot" realize I'm asking if you guys think this article has any truth to it? And if it does, what do you think?
U.S. auto manufacturers Ford and GM have threatened to take their operations overseas if the United Auto Workers refuse to accept huge pay cuts. The threat is ominous for Detroit, which is struggling to weather a sharp downturn and manage the effects of the subprime mortgage implosion. For each vehicle manufactured, Ford and GM pay workers about $27 per hour and then pay another $44 per hour in pension and healthcare costs for retirees. The companies say they must reduce total per-vehicle costs by about 30%. If a deal is not reached, they claim they will be forced to relocate to Latin America or Asia. Dave Cole, chairman of the think tank Centre for Automotive Research: "This threat [of leaving Detroit] is very real and the UAW is aware of it. Both GM and Ford have made it clear to the union that you do whatever you have to do to stay in business." The UAW's only means of resistance might be a strike, which would bolster the union's standing with its own members but could kill both it and its employers. As 24/7 Wall Street noted, "Detroit cannot have its capacity off-line for any period that would allow the Japanese to pick up more market share."
http://seekingalpha.com/article/4565...nion-wont-bend
U.S. auto manufacturers Ford and GM have threatened to take their operations overseas if the United Auto Workers refuse to accept huge pay cuts. The threat is ominous for Detroit, which is struggling to weather a sharp downturn and manage the effects of the subprime mortgage implosion. For each vehicle manufactured, Ford and GM pay workers about $27 per hour and then pay another $44 per hour in pension and healthcare costs for retirees. The companies say they must reduce total per-vehicle costs by about 30%. If a deal is not reached, they claim they will be forced to relocate to Latin America or Asia. Dave Cole, chairman of the think tank Centre for Automotive Research: "This threat [of leaving Detroit] is very real and the UAW is aware of it. Both GM and Ford have made it clear to the union that you do whatever you have to do to stay in business." The UAW's only means of resistance might be a strike, which would bolster the union's standing with its own members but could kill both it and its employers. As 24/7 Wall Street noted, "Detroit cannot have its capacity off-line for any period that would allow the Japanese to pick up more market share."
http://seekingalpha.com/article/4565...nion-wont-bend
Given the current state of Detroit, it's really hard to get good engineers to go there.
If they leave, it will be the last nail in the coffin for the city.
PS I used to live in the area and work at GM.
09-10-2007, 10:49 PM
#2
Drifting
Brian:
Are you asking about manufacturing, corporate staffing, or engineering?
From the vehicle design and development perspective, southeastern Michigan is still the place to be for automotive engineering. Granted, the traditional Big Three and the traditional suppliers are trimming personnel. However, Toyota is expanding their Ann Arbor engineering operations. Hyundai has constructed their North American engineering center. Nissan is adding headcount at their Farmington Hills technical center. Tesla has their engineering center in Rochester Hills. And many of the internationally based suppliers have recently (in the past decade) established engineering centers.
This is not to minimize the pain of those who have been trimmed from the staffs of GM, Ford, and DaimlerChrysler (oops, Chrysler LLC) as well as Delphi, Visteon, etc. in the past couple of years. And this is not to minimize the pain of the hourly job losses.
When I think about it, if I'm a recent college graduate who wants to be in the automotive engineering field, and I had a solid job offer, Detroit might be a good place to be right now. This is especially true if someone has skills in the newer technologies.
Are you asking about manufacturing, corporate staffing, or engineering?
From the vehicle design and development perspective, southeastern Michigan is still the place to be for automotive engineering. Granted, the traditional Big Three and the traditional suppliers are trimming personnel. However, Toyota is expanding their Ann Arbor engineering operations. Hyundai has constructed their North American engineering center. Nissan is adding headcount at their Farmington Hills technical center. Tesla has their engineering center in Rochester Hills. And many of the internationally based suppliers have recently (in the past decade) established engineering centers.
This is not to minimize the pain of those who have been trimmed from the staffs of GM, Ford, and DaimlerChrysler (oops, Chrysler LLC) as well as Delphi, Visteon, etc. in the past couple of years. And this is not to minimize the pain of the hourly job losses.
When I think about it, if I'm a recent college graduate who wants to be in the automotive engineering field, and I had a solid job offer, Detroit might be a good place to be right now. This is especially true if someone has skills in the newer technologies.
09-10-2007, 11:12 PM
#3
Team Owner
remember the meaning of MAD?
09-10-2007, 11:19 PM
#4
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MAD or MAAD? 
I believe the article is talking about Union jobs, which when I left didn't include engineers.
I've looked at going back, especially with the cost of living there.
But all the recruiters I've talked to said "do expect much in terms of pay, with what's going on here"
I visited Detroit twice in the last two months.
Everyone seems to be bugging out.
I believe the article is talking about Union jobs, which when I left didn't include engineers.
I've looked at going back, especially with the cost of living there.
But all the recruiters I've talked to said "do expect much in terms of pay, with what's going on here"
I visited Detroit twice in the last two months.
Everyone seems to be bugging out.
09-10-2007, 11:55 PM
#5
Team Owner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction
Detroit is a city with a decling population and it was forecasted to be abandon on some TV show I watched.
Detroit is a city with a decling population and it was forecasted to be abandon on some TV show I watched.
09-11-2007, 05:55 AM
#6
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Brian:
Are you asking about manufacturing, corporate staffing, or engineering?
From the vehicle design and development perspective, southeastern Michigan is still the place to be for automotive engineering. Granted, the traditional Big Three and the traditional suppliers are trimming personnel. However, Toyota is expanding their Ann Arbor engineering operations. Hyundai has constructed their North American engineering center. Nissan is adding headcount at their Farmington Hills technical center. Tesla has their engineering center in Rochester Hills. And many of the internationally based suppliers have recently (in the past decade) established engineering centers.
This is not to minimize the pain of those who have been trimmed from the staffs of GM, Ford, and DaimlerChrysler (oops, Chrysler LLC) as well as Delphi, Visteon, etc. in the past couple of years. And this is not to minimize the pain of the hourly job losses.
When I think about it, if I'm a recent college graduate who wants to be in the automotive engineering field, and I had a solid job offer, Detroit might be a good place to be right now. This is especially true if someone has skills in the newer technologies.
Are you asking about manufacturing, corporate staffing, or engineering?
From the vehicle design and development perspective, southeastern Michigan is still the place to be for automotive engineering. Granted, the traditional Big Three and the traditional suppliers are trimming personnel. However, Toyota is expanding their Ann Arbor engineering operations. Hyundai has constructed their North American engineering center. Nissan is adding headcount at their Farmington Hills technical center. Tesla has their engineering center in Rochester Hills. And many of the internationally based suppliers have recently (in the past decade) established engineering centers.
This is not to minimize the pain of those who have been trimmed from the staffs of GM, Ford, and DaimlerChrysler (oops, Chrysler LLC) as well as Delphi, Visteon, etc. in the past couple of years. And this is not to minimize the pain of the hourly job losses.
When I think about it, if I'm a recent college graduate who wants to be in the automotive engineering field, and I had a solid job offer, Detroit might be a good place to be right now. This is especially true if someone has skills in the newer technologies.
The pain Detroit is feeling is primarily on the automotive manufacturing side (aside from the housing market - great time to buy!). Long gone are the days when an unskilled worker (i.e. floor sweeper) can earn big dollars and have top notch benefits. For years in Detroit it has been the dream of every unskilled or semi-skilled worker to land a job at an automaker because the pay level was so much higher than anywhere else locally, and the unions protected them from getting fired, even if they slacked off. I am talking probably double the pay of doing the same exact work at a smaller shop in the area.
Today the automotive business is global, and the American companies cannot compete if they have significantly higher labor costs. That is the real pain being felt and why there has been so much outsourcing and threats to move manufacturing operations overseas. If pushed, they will do it, and they should do it. People complain about jobs moving overseas, yet when it comes time for THEM to buy a car, they certainly don't want to pay more so some guy can keep his fat union salary.
As the owner of an automotive supplier purely on the engineering end, anyone in the business knows that to survive you also must become a global company and not depend solely on Detroit. Detroit is full of automotive engineering companies, as Al points out, and this keeps growing. As the automakers continue to outsource, suppliers continue to expand. The best place to do the engineering is right here in Detroit next to your customers. You can manufacture anywhere.
Fortunately on the engineering end our business is driven solely by new car development, not quantity sold, and stopping new car development for an automaker is equivalent to slitting their throats. The pain we do feel is that as a high tech company it is difficult to recruit good electrical and software engineers, who for some crazy reason seem to like California better.
Bob
09-11-2007, 03:57 PM
#9
Former Vendor
09-11-2007, 04:59 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction
Detroit is a city with a decling population and it was forecasted to be abandon on some TV show I watched.
Detroit is a city with a decling population and it was forecasted to be abandon on some TV show I watched.
09-11-2007, 05:26 PM
#11
Team Owner
that was it
09-11-2007, 10:43 PM
#12
Safety Car
It's tough for the rank and file to shoulder the burden of cost cutting when upper management pays themselves obscene bonuses even while hemoraging red ink. When a chairman leaves after messing the company (pick your favorite here) up further, he gets a golden parashute and laughs all the way to the bank.
Leadership begins at the top, and the top has lead with arrogance for 50 years or more. If the unions can squeaze more out of 'em, I say God bless 'em.
GM's last hope was when they bought EDS and got Ross Perot on the board. Wait...they paid him 700 MILLION for his seat TO GET RID OF HIM. Too bad for them, everything he criticized them for then is coming true now. Silly little man. /:\
Leadership begins at the top, and the top has lead with arrogance for 50 years or more. If the unions can squeaze more out of 'em, I say God bless 'em.
GM's last hope was when they bought EDS and got Ross Perot on the board. Wait...they paid him 700 MILLION for his seat TO GET RID OF HIM. Too bad for them, everything he criticized them for then is coming true now. Silly little man. /:\
09-12-2007, 12:01 AM
#13
Team Owner
It's tough for the rank and file to shoulder the burden of cost cutting when upper management pays themselves obscene bonuses even while hemoraging red ink. When a chairman leaves after messing the company (pick your favorite here) up further, he gets a golden parashute and laughs all the way to the bank.
Leadership begins at the top, and the top has lead with arrogance for 50 years or more. If the unions can squeaze more out of 'em, I say God bless 'em.
GM's last hope was when they bought EDS and got Ross Perot on the board. Wait...they paid him 700 MILLION for his seat TO GET RID OF HIM. Too bad for them, everything he criticized them for then is coming true now. Silly little man. /:\
Leadership begins at the top, and the top has lead with arrogance for 50 years or more. If the unions can squeaze more out of 'em, I say God bless 'em.
GM's last hope was when they bought EDS and got Ross Perot on the board. Wait...they paid him 700 MILLION for his seat TO GET RID OF HIM. Too bad for them, everything he criticized them for then is coming true now. Silly little man. /:\
Dead on there too not that it was something hard to see. Management is supposed to manage.
NAFTA
09-12-2007, 07:15 AM
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There is penty of blame to pass around from the top all the way to the bottom. While the workers are pointing fingers at management and management are pointing fingers at workers, the foreign companies are moving in. Perhaps they should all accept part of the blame. It is not any one problem that is bringing down Detroit.
Toyota was actually worried about surpassing GM because of the negative image it would create, or at least so they said...
Bob
Toyota was actually worried about surpassing GM because of the negative image it would create, or at least so they said...
Bob
Last edited by ATI Performance; 09-12-2007 at 07:17 AM.
09-12-2007, 08:06 AM
#15
Team Owner
also throw in currencies manipulation with the Japanese companies. Even there so called US made cars many components come here to be installed. With most cars built with some where near 30 man hours labor is far from the only problem.
09-12-2007, 11:08 AM
#16
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Reciently I asked a Toyota engineer (who had left GM) if GM could under any circumstance, retake it's prior position in the marketplace.
His answer? "Only if the UAW could aceed to major work rule revisions". He commented that in a Toyota plant when an assebbly line has a problem the engineers who designed the machine in question immediately go there and assess the situation by stepping in for the worker.
Try that in a UAW plant, and you'd have everyone in the parking lot in about ten minutes. From my perspective, the wage level is just part of the problem. What is most needed Grasshopper is a team effort of managers and workers.
Cire
His answer? "Only if the UAW could aceed to major work rule revisions". He commented that in a Toyota plant when an assebbly line has a problem the engineers who designed the machine in question immediately go there and assess the situation by stepping in for the worker.
Try that in a UAW plant, and you'd have everyone in the parking lot in about ten minutes. From my perspective, the wage level is just part of the problem. What is most needed Grasshopper is a team effort of managers and workers.
Cire
09-12-2007, 11:55 AM
#17
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OK my flame suit is on. Management has a huge responsibility here, but....... our "greatest" generation sold out the future of our companys, our children, and our country, and still are. The retirees ....thats right, they collected obscene wages while they "worked" and now are still sucking the companies dry when retired. You saw the numbers twice as much for retirees as for workers.
Delphi workers ten years ago voted in a split package were all future workers are paid at a far lower and probably fair rateand benefit pkg., but the retirees and near retirees got more.
Those who robbed there children will SCREAM foul and fight for thier union rights, well mr union...pigs get fat...hogs get slautered. Good by American worker
Delphi workers ten years ago voted in a split package were all future workers are paid at a far lower and probably fair rateand benefit pkg., but the retirees and near retirees got more.
Those who robbed there children will SCREAM foul and fight for thier union rights, well mr union...pigs get fat...hogs get slautered. Good by American worker
09-12-2007, 03:35 PM
#18
Le Mans Master
OK my flame suit is on. Management has a huge responsibility here, but....... our "greatest" generation sold out the future of our companys, our children, and our country, and still are. The retirees ....thats right, they collected obscene wages while they "worked" and now are still sucking the companies dry when retired. You saw the numbers twice as much for retirees as for workers.
Delphi workers ten years ago voted in a split package were all future workers are paid at a far lower and probably fair rateand benefit pkg., but the retirees and near retirees got more.
Those who robbed there children will SCREAM foul and fight for thier union rights, well mr union...pigs get fat...hogs get slautered. Good by American worker
Delphi workers ten years ago voted in a split package were all future workers are paid at a far lower and probably fair rateand benefit pkg., but the retirees and near retirees got more.
Those who robbed there children will SCREAM foul and fight for thier union rights, well mr union...pigs get fat...hogs get slautered. Good by American worker
Someday we will be the underdog and Asia (if they are not already) will be the world superpower and when we are weak, they will all strike their revenge for our many years of biased foreign policy.
Let's hope I am wrong
09-12-2007, 04:02 PM
#19
Team Owner
OK my flame suit is on. Management has a huge responsibility here, but....... our "greatest" generation sold out the future of our companys, our children, and our country, and still are. The retirees ....thats right, they collected obscene wages while they "worked" and now are still sucking the companies dry when retired. You saw the numbers twice as much for retirees as for workers.
Delphi workers ten years ago voted in a split package were all future workers are paid at a far lower and probably fair rateand benefit pkg., but the retirees and near retirees got more.
Those who robbed there children will SCREAM foul and fight for thier union rights, well mr union...pigs get fat...hogs get slautered. Good by American worker
Delphi workers ten years ago voted in a split package were all future workers are paid at a far lower and probably fair rateand benefit pkg., but the retirees and near retirees got more.
Those who robbed there children will SCREAM foul and fight for thier union rights, well mr union...pigs get fat...hogs get slautered. Good by American worker
Matt you are 100% right where Edith woks they just dumped another 50 workers and sent there jobs to India. We are talking technology jobs that pay very well on Wall Street.
09-12-2007, 05:38 PM
#20
Safety Car
You can't blame them, that was the only life they knew. Mostly uneducated American's trying to get a piece of the American dream! They couldn't predict the future and would never imagine a global economy the way it is today. It is only going to get worse. Our children will have a tough time and I really feel sorry for them. I love my 3 year old, but the future looks bleek and it unfortunately makes me rethink bringing more children into this world.
Someday we will be the underdog and Asia (if they are not already) will be the world superpower and when we are weak, they will all strike their revenge for our many years of biased foreign policy.
Let's hope I am wrong
Someday we will be the underdog and Asia (if they are not already) will be the world superpower and when we are weak, they will all strike their revenge for our many years of biased foreign policy.
Let's hope I am wrong
The American worker will adapt as will industry......we're a capitalistic society and there's none finer in competion. Unfortunately capitalism breeds constant change. But, change results in ingenuity. We 'll be okay.
