96CollectorSport

Alright I just thought I would throw this out there to see what you guys think.
I have a 96 that is a street / track car and it would be a tough car to sell because it's really turned more into a track car than a street car. I love the way the car looks and feels, my only issues are that it has no cage, the brakes are gone after a day and (like you didn't see this coming) I wish it had more HP.

I'm thinking of just writing the car off and stripping it down putting in a cage, an LS based motor, and a BBK and making it into my own little project race car. Sure it will take time and $$$ but it will be worth it when it's all done. It will be a really fast C4 that will hang with the C5's and C6's.

Or do I just say **** on it and sell the 96 the way it is and buy a C5 that's already got all of the stuff on it. (Cage, BBK, suspension etc.)

We all go to a bunch of DE's and you see the same old thing over and over C5's and C6's in various states of modification but you don't see that many C4's that are really hauling the mail. Sure it would be a stripped down race car but I would love to get a point by from a C6Z in my "old C4".

One other aspect is that I would like to advertise my business a little with whatever car I choose. We do track prep and performance work to C5's and C6's mainly but are a full service Corvette shop from restoration of C1's-C3's to the above mentioned performance work.
I'm not sure what kind of message it sends if I just buy a car that is already done.

Randy (DRM) I'm really hoping you weight in on this.

Aardwolf

I like having projects to do but you may get enough of that at work!

96CollectorSport

Come on Andrew I know you would love the C4 project it would be like having your own test mule that someone else pays for! Plus there would be a lot of parts that I will need to get rid of.
I mean it's not like I could/would do everything at once it would be more of a long term project doing things as I could afford the time and $$$ to do them.
That way it will be well thought out over time so nothing goes wrong

rustyguns

c4 will do it as well as a c5. just depends on how much $ you want to spend!

Z06_BluByU

I really liked the feel of the C5 chassis better.. I was pointed by a C6Z06 during my last HPDE in my old C4. It was his first HPDE so his instructor was holding him back a lot... but it still felt nice..

I miss the C4 but the C5 (and of course the C6) are just more developed cars.. (due in large part to the things learned in teh earlier generations like the C4's)..

However, the C4's are so cheap right now you really get a lot of car for the $$$ .. The LT1 (and especially the LT4) cars really can be modded to run with the LSx motors!! (much cheaper than dropping in an LSx I would think)..

I have to admit it.. i;'ve been thinking about getting another C4 just for track days.. especially after seeing a few of these Z06's on the wrecker!!


either way.. you cant go wrong.. it will still be a vette!!

mwvettec5

It could be pretty costly to build a C4 that would hang w/ a new C6 Z, or, you could buy a C4 that's already been prepped like this:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=2026609

the blur

you can wreck your C4, and not take a financial hit. Although C5's are pretty cheap these days. It's all subjective to your pocketbook.

I own an LT4, but drove a C5 Z06, and C6 Z06 on track extensively.
The biggest difference I felt immediately was the MOTOR.
The LT4 has more than enough power, but the useable RPM range on both Z's were incredible, especially the C6.

mrc24x

I'll add my 2 cents. If that's your dyno chart in "my photos" then you shouldn't need to add any power. It looks perfect if you plan on running a hp/wt class like ST2 or TTS w/ NASA. Spend your time and money getting the cage and weight down to ~2800 lbs and have some fun.


If you wad it up there are plenty of $3000 C4's to buy and transfer parts.

Solo2GS

Its a tough call, having a C4 and tracked it a lot, I purchased a C5 to beat up on the track as to keep my C4 looking good. Sadly the stock C5 outdid the modded C4 easily enough on the track. I am sure there are C4's that can whoop a C5 out there, but I still think if you put that same experienced C4 driver into that C5 you are going to see significant improvements in lap times.

Its all a matter of money though... If you already have a purpose built C4 race car, making the jump to C5 and spending a lot of money "again" may not be the way to go!

I went back to doing a lot of Solo2 and there just aren't many (if any) C4's out there competing anymore in my area.

BrianCunningham

Stripped down C4's are really fast cars. I've seen what the SpeedVision ( now SpeedGT ) cars can do 1st hand.

Take a look at the TCC website, lots of good stuff
http://www.tccracing.com/gettingstarted.htm

ScaryFast

I have a lot of experience in the "buy a race car" or "convert a street car" area. I chose the conversion route, my buddy / teammate saw the headaches and wend the buy route. Turns out that it's a toss up.

I was thoroughly convinced after my project that it really is better to buy an already built car than to build, but just like anything in life there are no guarantees. The "turn key" racer that we purchased has been in the shop since April with a myriad of unforseen issues. The previous owner has been right in there helping to fix it, so it's not like he pulled a snow job on us, he really thought it was ready to go. Just a case of bad luck.

I will tell you that you can make a C4 competitive. With equal effort in a C5 I think it will be faster, but I should be competitive enough for it to be fun in a C4.

WNDOPDLR

I participate in a C4 that holds it's own with the C5's and some C6's. All depends on their level of modification and driver skill. It is sort of like the old west...there is always a faster gun. I chose the C4 for the same reasons you are considering. It was cheap initialy, but by the time it was done, I could have bought a much newer car, but I knew that before I started. I enjoy being competative in an older car and it suits my contrarian nature. I also enjoy working on my cars and my time off track is almost as enjoyable as the time I spend on track. It has also been a great father/son project and I can't begin to put a price on that.

There is no right or wrong in this sport, it is just what fits your budget, preference, and trips your personal triggers. Weigh your decisio and make your choice. Once made, don't look back.

96CollectorSport

I guess what it comes down to is... Am I ready to write off my 96 CE and make it a race car?
Part of the fun for me is going to be doing all the work myself and at my shop, it really wouldn't look all that good if I set up other peoples cars and then when it came time for me to buy/build I buy a car ready to go. I think the C4 will be a learning experiance that will help me professionally as well as be a ton of fun once it's done.
I also like the fact that I can build the car up at my own pace.

When it comes down to fast C5's and C6's vs the fast C4's the drawback to the C4 is that we can't get LS7 power out of our cars and that's where the LS motor will come into play. I have an idea for the 1/2 shafts that will allow the use of C5 style CV joints/shafts, and besides the 1/2 shafts I think the ZF and the Dana 44 will handle plenty of power. I know you don't need that kind of power but come up to Road America and see what 350 whp will get you. I think that the C4 project will be the route I will go with and I will keep you guys in the loop as to how things go.
I'm starting with a 96 CE that has a bunch of mods already and in street/track form it ran a 2.39.xx at Road America and I would like to make a car that (with me behind the wheel) will get in the high/mid 2.20's. A couple hundred pounds and a few extra hp and I think that it will be doable.

The car already has a 32mm front VB&P sway bar and poly bushings but the shocks and springs are stock 96 Z51, I'm not sure if I want to go coil overs or use the new VB&P spring with adjustable ride height. My car is already lowered. The rear has all of the VB&P adjustable pieces back there, with a 24mm bar and again stock shocks and springs.
Now does anyone sell adjustable end links for C4 sway bars??
Cooling I have a DeWitts aluminum radiator and a stand alone oil cooler. Brakes are stock 96 CE but I really want to get a BBK of some kind (I really like StopTech for the C5's but they have nothing for the C4's and I do have some Wilwood SL6 calipers laying around here.
I already have a R&D crossbar and 5 points with the stock seats but I will have to get some racing seats to save some weight. What seats fit in a C4 and can you get sliders so they are adjustable front and back?
I see Exotic Muscle has a bunch of lightweight parts, I was eyeing up a hood, roof, and plexi rear window.
Everything else I think I have a handle on, I would install the cage over winter and run the LT-4 this year and possibly next as I buy and tweak the LS motor and get all the ducks in a row before I put that in.
I'm all to any helpful hints along the way.

My goal would be to have the brakes and suspension sorted out and the car pretty well stripped down for the NCM event at Road America.

Aardwolf

Must be nice! I think you have 100 more HP then my L98. My plan has been to rebuild as a 383 or more, once this engine gives. You could wait till it blows or rebuild sooner. There are some very good 383 builds in C4 tech.

Like WNDOPDLR I too really enjoy having shop projects. Plus it keeps my kid busy helping out or drawing on boxes.

Shedding weight is excellent, if you need ideas you can look over my car. I have been removing all sorts of things. I just put in a Braille light weight battery, it's eleven pounds. The stock battery was 32. I'd enjoy seeing the project and you know I can test some of those nice car parts on mine! I really love to drive so mine will be staying a street and track car.

From what I remember the 32 bar wasn't the best match as it's to big and promotes understeer. Have you thought of tubular bars for less weight? I tried the EM adjustable heim links and they did not fit well. I recommend Guldstrand.com also there is a forum member making some suspension parts. (astock165)

You definitely need a BBK to reach that goal! I just put Corbeau A4 seats in mine and they just barely fit. I don't have a parking brake either, so don't go wider then the A4. (19.5" wide) Each seat is 25 pounds for the shaved models I got. I would have liked lighter seats but must maintain the recline feature. The brackets and sliders were eight pounds each. 33 total vs 40 for the stock electric seat and base. I have a pair of single locking sliders that they sent and didn't want back after sending the correct double locking sliders. If you'd like them LMK.

My thread is here on the seats:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=2047083

I've been prepping mine for the upcoming NCM event too.

MarkBychowski

Hi 96collectorsport,
Logically speaking, I'd say go with a C5 (for reasons already given). That being said, I'm still modifying the crap out of my '96 LT4 and have no interest at all in moving to a newer car because I have a lot of fun with the whole process. So I really like your idea of trying to max out the C4.
Some random thoughts...
DRM and EM both sell adjustable heim joints for C4 sway bars.
I have Ultrashield 17.5" aluminum seats and they just barely fit. Mine are solid-mounted, but I was toying around with mounting them to the factory sliders, which would work by fabbing up a simple adaptor, but also would raise them up more than I wanted. (I love the seats)
The SL6's would work very well. I have the older GN3's which I love, but they are a little heavy.
I'm really eying one of Gary's Penske coilover setups. I think he's still working out the prototype C4 install with BrianCunningham, though.
You can search for NitrousSam's posts in C4 Tech on weight reduction. His car is set up for drags, but most of the weight reducttion stuff still applies to us.
The EM lightweight hoods are very cool. To save $ you can cut off quite a bit of weight by removing hardware and the support braces from your stock hood and pinning it .
I'd seriously consider sticking with the LT platform for your motor, though. You can make 500HP pretty reasonably and much more if you don't care about streetability.
A dry sump can definitely be done with an LT motor in a C4. I'll be posting about mine pretty soon It would be MUCH easier to install in a car without all of the accessory crap mine still has!

Good luck with your decision!

0Vector Vette

Here are a few C4's that can run with the C5's!







Of course, they may not keep up with my new C6.







Hopefully, this is all they will see!

ScaryFast

Hey VV, where were you guys at Grattan? I was left to run ST2 by myself.

Sure, two wins is nice, but first out of one is not real impressive.

eogel

Joel,
If you do not buy the C4 hood from Vector Vette (performanceafx.com), then I recommend Exotic Muscle. The rules I compete under do not allow me to use a hood with the features in the Vector Vette hood. I must stay with the stock design.
I purchased a carbon fiber hood from Exotic Muscle and am very pleased with it. Excellent quality. Base car is an ’86. Stock hood weighed 86 lbs and hood hinges weighed 7 lbs. EM hood weighed 17 lbs plus the pins used to mount it.
He has several options. I chose the pin on type and removed the stock hinges.
Something to consider in your weight reduction efforts: If you are racing with NASA in ST1 or ST2, keep in mind your power to weight ratio. You could remove so much weight that you will have to add it back to comply with the ratio. The good point of that is you can choose where to put the weight back on. The bad thing is you could spend a LOT of money on lightweight part and then have to buy lead and mount it. Just suggesting that you consider the costs involved.
Ed

0Randy@DRM

Sorry Joel for the delayed reaction. To C5 or not. Well this is my thoughts on it. You need to look at what you can sell your car for. Then see what you can get into a C5 for. Did you see the deal Ron B got on his FRC

Then add up the cost of running the two.

Then the building of your dream car and it's cost over time. You don't have to spend everything at once, it's best but not needed.

I love the C4s still to this day and will always love them. They are great cars, and with the right nut behide the wheel can FTD. One of the quickest cars up here is a C4 making 425 to the wheels. It is a well drivin, well setup car. They do have some draw backs, wheel bearing cost and the u-joint and lack of LS power. Don't worry about the u-joints beside you will have to replace them often with more power. But you can buy a lot of u-joints for a couple hunderd bucks. They have less room in them after they are done with a cage. It maybe a bitch in and out, but once you are in, there shouldn't be a problem. The C4s have almost dropped 100 percent out of aftermarket world compared to the C5s. This can be a problem, but what bolt on part fits anyways??? At Blackhawk you would be very hard to beat, at Road America, my money is on the C5s.

Well the rain has stopped and it is late. I'll be back.

Randy

eogel

If you gut the door and put in NASCAR style bars, entering and exiting is a breeze. Replaced my straight bars with them and it is now very easy.
Ed