rustyguns

http://www.modernperformance.com/all/schroth.shtml


know a good spot to bolt the rear tie to?

AU N EGL

most clubs will not allow a 4 point belt system

stock DOT belts, 5 or 6 point in a seat designed for a harness system

rustyguns

the scroth is DOT approved NASA will accept it


i don't want to get a race seat without a roll bar

Feffman

I have the Schroth 4-points in my CTS-V and have had no trouble at PCA or Audi events.

Feff

no spin

So would a Jet Pilot harness and stock seat be considered unacceptable at an NCM event?

AlwaysInBoost

I just purchased the Rallye 4 ASM belts for use in my EVO. From the research I've done these are the only DOT approved belts that are safe on the street and at the track. The ASM (anti-submarine) technology is what makes it stand out from traditional 4 point hanresses.

If you don't want to put a cage in your car these seem like the next best alternative. Can't wait to try them out for the first time.

AU N EGL

That may be a regional.

Most 4 points are not DOT acceptable except in the BMW Mini.

Just because some company says THEIR 4 point belt is DOT approved, does not make them acceptable IN YOUR CAR. And definitively NOT IN A CORVETTE.

Dont forget to look at how the belts are mounted. Shoulder harness must go though the seat backs, not around, and must mount with in +/-5* of your shoulder level.

rustyguns

yes rules are different club to club. For now NASA accepts it and i read SCCA does and not but I do not run with SCCA and I hear their a bunch of rice burner loving rule making nut cases anyway

i am tying to find someone who might have installed the schroth harness.

AU N EGL

Most clubs are going with the PCA rules as far as harnesses, 5 or 6 point in a seat designed for harnesses. 4 point only in the BMW Mini, no other cars.

Harness still must pass though the seat back and not wrap around the seat back

ScaryFast

Gents, this is not something to argue about. Trying to get something sketchy to pass a club's rules is irrelevant.

Listen to AU N EGL, this is your safety we're talking about. Just because you made something safety related pass tech (that potentially shouldn't have) doesn't make you savvy, just stupid. The rules aren't there to be a pain in the ***, they're enforced to save your life. Haven't you seen the 20 "HPDE crash" videos that have been posted here in the last few months? This ain't driving up to the Piggly Wiggly for groceries.

Read the guidelines for how to install safety harnesses on the SCHROTH website. You'll learn a lot and potentially save your skin.

Scooter70

I have the ASM4 in my GTO. I think it does a better job of holding me in the seat on track than the OE 3-point belt. That said, I don't think it does a $150 better job. I have already paid for and installed it, so I'm going to continue to use it on track.

If the harness has attained a DOT certification, the US Department of Transportation has said that it is safe. Is it as good as a 5/6 point harness (with the cage and seat to go with it)? Obviously not. Is it as good as a 3 point belt? The DOT says "yes".

That's my 2 cents.

rustyguns

a
ok then...i stay stock. pull 1.5 g turns at 120 mph and hold on the steering wheel to hold me in the seat. helluva workout!

AU N EGL

I can understand where the two of you are coming from. However What car has a 4 point harness stock from the manufacture?

It is the installed 3-point belt that is approved by the DOT. Not any after market belt

If some one shows up at my event at VIR in 4 days with a four point, they have an option; use the stock 3 point which is what your car was designed to use, or you cant go on the track.

Or if someone has a a harness system and the shoulder harness are wrapped around the seat back. Sorry cant use that either. Must use the stock belts.

Am I being a Hard ARZ? YES, but it is for some hard headed ppls safety.

Dont like the rules, dont come.

When any car club says NO. then your argument is MOOT. Play by the Clubs rules or dont play at all.

PPL spend 10s of thousand on making their car faster and adding more HP. But skimp on saftey. I just dont understand that

Come on guys just go get a harness bar, and decent seats. Then install a 5 point or 6 point harness and everyone is happy.

ScaryFast

It's still quite simple. If you've outgrown as a driver what your stock 3 pt belts can handle then you should have 5 or 6 pt harnesses. I suppose the $300 for a harness-accomodating seat would be better spent on some horsepower mods so people can go faster down the straights.

I can't figure out why we're arguing about this. Aren't you interested in being as safe as possible? Do you have a family that might be a bit bummed if you got hurt? I'm not suggesting you gut your car and put in a 12 point roll cage, this is a simple and fairly inexpensive suggestion.

There was just a thread a few weeks back about a guy with a 4-pt harness that was KILLED in an HPDE wreck because it didn't hold him in properly.

Your vehicle's stock safety system is designed to work together (belts, airbags, pretensioners, crush zones, blah blah blah) in a collision. If you change one aspect you're affecting the system performance. It's not your 3 pt belt that's going to save your life, it's the belt combined will all that other stuff.

For example, when you get in a frontal collision, the airbag is designed to deply at the exact millisecond that your upper body will rotate forward and into that area. It will slowly (relatively speaking) decelerate your skull to prevent severe g loading on your brain. The stock seat is designed to keep you from sliding under the belt, and the pretensioners in the belt will take out all the slack to help keep you in place.

If you add 4 pt belts you're changing your body's reaction during the crash and running the risk of a mismatch in what will happen to it. You're also removing the pretensioners from the equation altogether. Millions of dollars are spent crashing a vehicle in many different configurations to ensure that the safety system is working together. No testing is done by the OEM with aftermarket harnesses...

Newer 4 pt belts with anti-submaringing technology are definately an improvement over the old stuff. But you still run the risk, if worn improperly, that you will pull the lap belt too high on your pelvis when you tighten the shoulder straps. This will cause you to slide down and under the belt in a severe frontal crash and rip your guts to shreds.

6 pt belts and racing seats are designed to replace the stock system and work together as their own complete safety system. That's why 5 and 6 pt belts are typically not recommended with stock seats - they can not be configured properly in the vehicle.

FWIW, I'm not regurgitating info I read on the internet. I work in automotive safety and I've seen at least 50 crashes live and thousands on video. You'd be blown away by what happens to a human body in a crash that we as racers would consider SLOW (40 mph). Next time you see one of those commercials on TV about how safe a car is pause it. Watch the 2 second crash clip in slow motion (I guess you need TiVo for this ). Watch what that poor dummy goes through and all the things that happen in that vehicle. Then think of the same crash at 3 times the speed.

rustyguns

I agree but here is my point. you get a harness and race seats you need a roll bar because you will be crushed in the stiff seat you and you cannot roll to one side to stay away from the collapsed roof. then you need to get a Hans device to save your neck because in a collision you body says in the belts but you neck ans head keep going

i know it is not written down anywhere with millions of dollars in testing and i would gladly test it if i had the $. But in practice the schroth installed properly would work with the airbags.

Am i going to do this? "NO" i am going to stay stock until i can afford to buy two hans devices and helmets, 2 racing seats and 2 mounts , two harnesses and a roll cage and the money for the installation. everyone here says it is cheap. i don't think its cheap

So i am going to the gym and work on upper body strength so i can hold on to the wheel in high G turns. Goofy damn Lawyers

at least i will be able to win at arm wrestling

thanks for the input from people that actually have the Scroth!

AU N EGL

nasty circle isn't it ?


answer, two cars, One for the street and a full built race car with cage for the track.

AlwaysInBoost

I see where you are coming from AU N EGL, but the Schroth ASM 4 point harnesses myself and scooter70 are talking about are DOT approved. they perform just like any factory installed 3 point belt system in an accident (allowing your inboard shoulder to move forward so you don't submarine, thats why they are called AntiSubMarine).

watch this:

http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/SchrothASMII.wmv

also here are some quick snips from a google search

http://www.redlinetimeattack.com/street_rules.htm

Factory restraints are permitted for any vehicle in street class. If an aftermarket harness is installed in the vehicle, the harness must also include a submarine belt. Exception: The Schroth brand of 4-point harnesses with ASM Technology is permitted to be used without an anti-submarine belt. The aftermarket harness must pass the Redline Time Attack safety inspection.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f100...rnesses-57669/

Just got this email from them:
NEW 4-pt. SEAT BELT RULES
Speed Ventures is no longer allowing drivers to run 4-pt. seat belts other than properly-installed Schroth 4-pt. belts with ASM (anti-submarine) technology. Factory/OEM 3-pt. belts are still allowed, as are 5 and 6 point harnesses. If you have any questions regarding your safety belts, please contact us

http://www.soloracer.com/harnschrothfaq.html

1. Are the Schroth Rallye line of harness belts really street legal AND how can I prove it?
Located on the plastic ASM mechanism on the inboard shoulder belt of each harness, you will see the letters/numbers "FMVSS 209". The DOT created this Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) 209 and Schroth has certified that the Schroth Rallye belts meet or exceed that standard, and therefore are street legal.

AU N EGL

Take it up with the PCA. They are the leaders in saftey for HPDEs. Almost all other clubs follow the PCA tech rules. Why? the PCA puts on twice as many students though HPDEs then any other club. Plus the PCAs have seen the most lawsuits, ( non related to harness)

again, it is a moot point to argue. If a club does not allow a 4 point, sans BMW Mimi, you cant use them.

and I and my event co-promoter will not allow them.

ScaryFast

Interesting. I'll have to check out the testing done by Schroth. The ability for the shoulder to rotate is certainly an improvement. But still nowhere near as good as a legitimate anti-sub strap. And you are bypassing the pretensioners as I mentioned above.

AlwaysInBoost

Scaryfast I would certainly appreicate your opinion, since like you said, you have experience in the automotive safety industry.

obviously any safety device is only as good as the end user. if you don't follow the manufactures instructions to the TEE you could be putting yourself in harms way. what I mean by that is that people with factory installed 3 point belts have been known to "twist" their belts to they stay tight and don't loosen up around turns. Also the CG-Lock is a pretty popular device, I wonder how safe that is in an accident if it doesn't let the belt retract.