Dale1990

After having a great time at Spring Mountain this summer, I'd like to start dabbling in HPDEs but the only sporty car I have is a 90 Vert.

I would guess the rules on allowing Verts would vary by whomever is hosting/organizing but does anyone know the general thoughts on if this is allowed? Would getting a factory hardtop maybe allow me to run as a coupe? I'd rather not hack up the car to install a roll bar since I'd be really lucky to run 2-3 events per year.

I'm also thinking about running with the local auto-xers since they don't seem to have a problem with Verts. The only problem there is that they run all but 2-3 events on Sundays and I have to work every Sunday

c4cruiser

The factory hardtop when installed properly using the the two heavy steel attaching brackets may work for track days that otherwise restrict entry. You might want to contact the groups that organize HPDE/track day events beforehand and ask.

The factory hardtop has a steel halo bar that is very similar to the one in the coupe. The two attaching brackets connect this bar to the body B-pillars. The top also has a metal U-shaped frame that attaches to the windshield frame using the two encapsulated bolts already there in 'verts.

Once the top is installed properly, the car is actually stiffer than the coupe body. The 'vert X-brace helps to make the car stiffer. That would be a great help in autocrossing a 'vert.

Feffman

Dale:

I think you'll find most HPDE groups insist the convertible Vette has a roll bar which passes the "broomstick test". Ohters allow convertibles with hard tops in place. Some organizations, namely some BMW clubs, won't allow any convertibles in their track events.

Feff

longdaddy

are you comfortable running in a convertible without a roll bar? you can always find someone who will alllow your car on the track, your first consideration should be your safety.

generally, most organizations will allow convertibles as long as there is "some" protection.

johninar

Dale,

I started out the way you did, with a Vert. I ran at Hallett for several years. As my speeds went up and my times went down, and reading many many many threads on this forum, I swapped for a Z06.

Auto-x is generally safe for verts. Although anything can happen. When you start tracking on a road course you are accepting some significant risk. Anything can, and does happen on a track.

We don't all start tracking a fully prepped race car. It's a gradual thing. Many folks on this forum that have all the bells and whistles didn't start out that way. Full Cage, fire suppression, nomex suit, 6 point harness, HANS etc. That being said, I had an experienced wheel to wheel guy come up and tell me I was going all the faster I needed to be going without some safety gear. I got the message. Swapped cars, and many updates to the car and my gear. HANS being the latest.

Only a few courses will let you out without some type of rollover protection. Hallett, being a relatively low speed course has been able to continue to allow convertibles. I don't think a "factory hardtop" will help much. Roll bars are great, but with many configurations, become a track only vehicle. Nothing fun about banging your head on a roll bar padded or not.

At the end of the day, you have to weigh your desires with budget and safety.

Good Luck,
John

rustyguns

I run a vert at HPDE's without a rollbar at 140 mph and i am still alive ...just got a roll bar and it does not require cutting on the vette so I can start doing race class and compete for hoosier tires

I have seen many car incidents on the track and never seen a roll over of a corvette,,,but it is possible. not probable.. but possible

seems cobras like to roll boing- boing- boing down the track

I come from an offroad racing background and wrecking was pretty much a daily event, if you didn't run off into the toolies or roll now and then you were not going fast enough but we usually just roll 'em back on the the wheels, bend everything back and get going again when I first started HPDE's at first i kinda thought these street guys were a buncha pussies afraid to wreck their shiny cars but you need rules to keep this sport alive...so i am in

Bill Dearborn

I believe all of the events in my area refuse to run Verts without properly installed rollbars. A friend of mine has a 94 with a bar that fits under his convertible top and does not hack up the top cover. If the event requires you to have an instructor they have a vote in the issue as well. I refused to ride in a guys Viper Coupe because he had a bunch of stuff intruding into the space where my head would be. I didn't feel like slamming my head against it if he took an off track excursion. He lost a bunch of track time until he got the equipment removed so an instructor could sit in the car safely.

Bill

Dale1990

Thanks for the comments, all!

The car was originally ordered with the hard top so all of the brackets and wiring are already in place. It would be (almost) a bolt-in and go.

I'd be a little nervous running the car w/o some protection which is why I mentioned the hard top as a possible option. Eventually, I'll be upgrading to a newer Vette and it will be a coupe.

So, it sounds like it's going to be a crap-shoot. Oh well.

Z11409

K&K Insurance Co. is the largest carrier for race tracks in USA.. They donot allow Verts per their policy.

longdaddy

it's always amusing to see people say that corvettes don't generally have roll over incidents. as if there is some magic pixie dust GM sprinkles over the roof that keeps the evil rollover spirits away. the truth is, rollover incidents are rare enough on the track to make any sort of generalizations pointless. the car going on the roof has a lot more to do with what kind of incident it is rather than a type of a car, as long as we keep high CG SUVs off the track, of course.

and yes, I know of a corvette driver that rolled over. at 150+ mph, 5 or 6 times. he had a roll bar, full containment seat, and hans. climbed out of a burning car and walked away.

c4cruiser

FWIW, there is a Corvette club in Oregon that does a track day at Portland Int'l Raceway and they do allow 'verts to run. They buy insurance from the track so there is a way to do it.

With K&K, you can get all sorts of riders to policies. K&K is more like a broker than a carrier. Policies through K&K are underwritten by a variety of companies. You just have to pay for whatever levels of coverage and specific riders to the policy that is needed.

vettehardt

If you are already thinking of getting a newer car in the future, why not try and trade the vert for a coupe of the same year now? They are fairly cheap right now and one can be had for next to nothing. Then you just throw in a harness bar and a 5-point harness and go at it.

Solo2GS

As many have said... Most tracks and organizers do not allow verts without roll over protection. The one's that do allow them on for "parade" laps at controlled speeds...

Sure some may feel safe in a vert on the high speed track, but when they get flattened, its the track/organizer that has to worry about being sued!

NCCC does not (even with hard top) as they use K&K I believe...

Some tracks will let you by with the factory hard top as they do not know any better!

There are many other verts that auto-x just fine. I wouldn't about it there.

In the long run... get the proper tool for the job and its not a vert for HPDE

vettehardt

NCCC doesn't allow a vert on the track durring a high speed event. If it is called a low speed event, then they are allowed. In a low speed event a stock vette, group 1 or 1S, isn't allowed to go over 80mph. Sometimes we hold a low speed event at Putnam Park for thoes who need another event to get their high speed liscense. We also allow a few of the workers that have convertibles to run the low speed. We just use two of the cut ins on the straights and a chicane on the back straight to keep the speed down.

For the normal autocross in a parking lot, a low speed event, a vert is not required to have a bar.

bb69

I don't know where you heard this, but it's flat not true. I use K&K and we allow convertibles.

Anyone who thinks they are safe on track simply because they have a hardtop is kidding themselves. Driving fast on a track is dangerous. So is hauling butt down your local two lane twisty with oncoming traffic, kids running in the street, gravel in the corners, etc, etc. Of course most people seem to believe it's perfectly acceptable to go to the Tail of the Dragon and start carving up a public road in a convertible, but God help you if you go on a track. The worst accident I have seen was on a two lane twisty road where a vert went off the road and hit a tree.

For the original poster, it seems like you understand the risk and are asking questions about it. To me, that is the safest thing you can do. My philosophy is you need to limit your driving style to your current situation. If you have a vert, you should be driving at a more controlled pace than someone with a roll bar/roll cage. If you don't have a HANS, you should be more controlled. And so on until you are a professional driver with more safety equipment than most of our cars are worth. If you don't have this type of self responsibility, then you shouldn't be on a track. It's the desire to stay alive that will save you, not a bolt in 4 point roll bar.

Ken

Dale1990

I thought about that but I'd rather not get rid of the 'vert. Here in AR, it makes a great DD as we have decent weather most of the year. Plus, I've had it for 7+ years now and done a lot of work to it that I would never recoup if I sold it. I know everything that is wrong with it

Part of the fun at Spring Mountain was being able to "test drive" a C6 on a track and I fell in love with how they perform - power, handling, comfort. I must have one . Unfortunately, as a non-balla, it's going to take a little time to save up for one.

I do have access to my Dad's 86 coupe (it's in my garage) and he said I could track it if I wanted but I don't feel comfortable using someone else's car for this.

Anyway, I appreciate the insight from everyone and I agree on the safety arguments against using a 'vert. I'll probably start out with the local autocrossers to get my feet wet. Maybe by the time I get used to that I'll be ready to step in to a newer coupe.

urtoslo

FWIW, I don't instruct as often now as in the past, but after flipping in my Spec Miata during a race a couple of years ago, I vowed to never get into any convertible that doesn't have a real rollbar installed. That includes convertibles with those factory hoop thingies and hardtop convertibles (those with the hardtop that folds/stows in the trunk).

The year after I flipped, I was instructing and barrel rolled 360deg in a convertible at an HPDE. It just happened to be another Miata, and it had a great rollbar! When sh_t happens, it happens fast. I hope I never flip in the Vette, but I've got the full cage, race seat, HANs, fire suit, etc, so I hope I've done everything possible to minimize damage to me.

I've seen a C4 convertible that flipped with the soft top in the up (raised) position, and it held up pretty well. The windshield didn't collapse and the soft top frame was bent, but it held up the car too. It flipped on the street and I have no other knowledge of the particulars of the incident. Those frames are stouter than they look, but I wouldn't trust a softop at track speeds, and I wouldn't trust the bolted-on hardtop either.

GettReal

I've been doing HPDEs for a few years in my vert but one of the first things I did after my first season was get a 6 pt roll bar welded in. I realized that at the speeds I was doing (150mph) that my safety has to come first for this kind of hobby. I have no regrets. I am now removing all the convertible hardware and installing an OEM Z06 hardtop. The track bug got me and its now converted over to pretty much a full time track car.

pologreen1

Ironic this came up, I just called for the 6 pt I bought from you to be installed. they want $425 up to $500 depending on if I take out the carpet.

urtoslo

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