Wicked Weasel

I hear different things from full bar to just hoops (not that I think hoops provide any protection). From the guys that are doing it what is really needed to attend HPDEs.


thanks

Jason

From someone that spent years beating my head against this particular wall:

Every club has their own rules.
Every track has their own rules.

You will have to comply with whichever of these is stricter.

Most will quote the "broomstick" rule, but I never saw it enforced. That doesn't mean that the first place you go won't pull it out. And tell you you can't run. And that your entry fee in non-refundable.

No rollbar that allows the top to function will pass the broomstick rule unless you are 3.5' tall.

The advice I was given, and ignored, and that I now give, and see ignored:

Sell the vert, get a Z06.

GettReal

I have a vert and as mentioned.. different rules all over.. some say roll bar, some say removable hardtops and others say just show up and you're fine. I have a 6pt welded in roll bar in mine with a functioning roof and it WILL pass the broomstick rule (I'm 6'1 with sidemounted raceseats) however I have never been asked to do it.

In the next week or so I am pulling my vert parts out and installing an OEM Z06 roof though.

longdaddy

all comes down to how much you value your head/neck. Rules can be broken/avoided/circumvented, the value you place on your safety tends to stay constant.

if you don't believe you will ever roll your car, don't bother with roll bars - if you look hard enough you will find someone who will let you on the track. if you believe you may at some point roll your car, how much are you willing to spend to ensure you survive the experience? enough for a car with a roof or a full cage for your convertible?

GM designed the A-pillar to withstand a rollover at 35 mph. Make your own conclusions.

davidfarmer

car roll over very seldom......I've only seen one in nearly 20 years. However, it only takes once.

In general, most clubs require a full 4-point bar that clears the broomstick test, OR a full cage (broomstick not required). I think the local cobra club has events that let convertible run with nothing, and some groups (NASA apparently since I instructed in a stock miata recently) allow OEM mini-hoops.

As stated, there is no way to get a convertible Corvette with functioning top to pass a broomstick test, so my advice is to leave the Vert at home........

GettReal

My C5 Vert does pass the test. With me strapped in my car I have over 2" ... Im 6'1

AU N EGL

Always best to ask the club that person want to run with.

Hoops are out for corvettes. A good four point bar, above the drivers head. Which may mean removal of the tonal cover.

We use the SCCA Solo I Tech rules.

Charley Hoyt

I agree with everything stated above. Convertibles are not the best cars for taking to the track. There really isn't a great way to put a roll bar in a vert....Here is the compromise I use. Some groups may not allow it...but, the group I run with does. This was the safest compromise that I could come up with. This should hold me until I can afford a dedicated race car.....I did just purchase a tow vehicle, so I am getting closer to my goal

Charley

kwhiteside

I ran my first year in a 2002 Vert. Without exception my instructors were always bothered. No kidding when you hear that these guys are safety focused. It's a great sport, but the dangers are real. If you're just gonna poke around and have some fun you should be fine. But if you really like it and want to push things a little harder you will find ALL the guys you talk to that also push pretty hard take safety real serious.

I sold my 02 Vert daily driver and bought both a Z06 and a daily driver with the same funds (Buy Vettes in the winter). Now the Z just sits in the garage most the time. Of course every time I pass by she taunts me, "Hey buddy, when we going to the track?" or "If were not going to the track this weekend, lets do a mod."

AU N EGL

Charley

That looks good. Only thing I see missing is the FIA roll bar padding

Wicked Weasel

Thanks for the replies guys. It is not for me but I am always asked what is needed by vert owners and my answer is roll bar so I wanted to double check to make sure I was giving the correct answer.

WNeal

Being a track provider, there are several concerns that I am faced with:

1. I DO NOT want anyone to get hurt at a 10/10ths event. It is simply not worth it.

2. I have to comply with track rules. VIR for example has it in my contract that convertibles are not allowed without some type of protection.

3. I pay a large sum of money for insurance and must also comply with their rules.


As others have said above, you must make the decision and some clubs will allow it. You car above appears to be just fine from what I can see, especially due to the bar coming from the main hoop to the front.

Nothing I hate worse than turning folks away but some things just have to be prioritized.


You also bring up a very good point about various club rules. It is difficult sometimes because of the various group rules when deciding on your track days. This sport is lacking some consistent standards but I don't think that will change anytime soon. Lots of different passing rules is a good example, not that it is a bad thing, just pay attention at the drivers meeting. Some of them seem to be menusha but it always pays to attend these meetings and pay attention.


I personally think the biggest safety feature of all our events has been the high standard of drivers. We demand good sportsmanship and common sense driving, while at the same time, giving drivers some freedoms on the track. It has worked very well so far. I have only had to ask 1 driver to pull it in for the day in 3 years but will not hesitate to do so if needed.

In any event, have fun and stay safe

Wicked Weasel

WNeal this is my issue too - there is no set of standards. What may pass at one track could fail at another or passes at the track but fails with the organizer or passes by everyone except for the state.

Just seems a standard guideline would be helpful.

Here are the NJ guidelines to anyone interested.


http://www.nj.gov/njsp/info/pdf/racing_regulations.pdf

AU N EGL

That is why for the NCM events, we use the SCCA Solo I tech rules for vert roll bars.

This will pass ANY clubs and insurance provideds requirements.

Now many other clubs, PCA notable will also require race seats, with race harness, properly routed though the seat and arm retrains.

Some tracks will allow a "Lites" class for verts. But there must be a pace car, no passing and a speed limit of 80 mph.

Many instructors, crazy as we may be, will not get in a novice persons car, which is a vert with out proper roll over protection.

With all these safety additions and requirements, it is almost less expesive to purchase a used C5 coupe and mode that for track use.

Some thing else, each club is slightly different. But must clubs do follow the PCA / BMW rules as they are the biggest two orgainzations that do track events.

PLUS remember, it is THEIR event, so it is THEIR rules. If some one does not like THEIR rules, you dont get to play. Arguing is a moot point.

GeorgeZNJ

So now I have the perfect reply to" I can put my top down and feel the sun on my face and the wind in my hair"......"yeah well I can get on a roadcourse at any time"

Bill32

SCCA Time Trials and PDX (HPDE) Rules:
11.1. PDX (LEVEL 1)
At PDX (Level 1) events, any car that is street legal will NOT require a roll bar/roll cage, except for Convertibles and Targa* top automobiles. These cars must have either a roll bar meeting the requirements of this section of the TTR, a non-mechanical factory roll bar/roll over protection (i.e. no pop-ups), or a factory hard top using the factory mounting hardware and mounting points. Owners of cars equipped with factory roll bars/roll over protection must present documentation stating that the device is a roll bar or roll over protection at the time of vehicle tech inspection (a factory issued Owner’s or Shop Manual will fulfill this requirement.) Targa top (and T-top) automobiles may forgo the roll bar requirement under the condition that the Targa bar meets the height requirements set forth in 11.1.1.B. For the purposes of this determination only, street legal will be defined as a car which meets local requirements for inspection (if applicable) and the car in question must possess CURRENT, VALID registration. If this street legal requirement is not met, then the roll bar requirement as stated in this section shall apply.
* Targa top, targa for short, is a semi-convertible car body style with a removable roof section and a full width fixed B-pillar and roof section. The rear window can be fixed or removable.
11.1.1. Basic Design Considerations
A. The basic purpose of the roll bar is to protect the driver in case the vehicle rolls over or runs into an obstacle such as a guardrail or catch fence. This purpose should not be forgotten.
B. The top of the roll bar shall not be below the top of the driver’s helmet when the driver is in normal driving position, and shall not be more than six inches behind the driver. It is strongly suggested that the roll bar extend at least three inches above the driver’s helmet. In case of two driver cars, both drivers must be within the roll bar height requirement, however only one driver must be within six inches of the roll bar. In a closed car equipped with a roll bar/cage, it must be as close as possible to the interior top of the car.
C. The roll bar must be designed to withstand compression forces resulting from the weight of the car coming down on the roll structure, and to take fore-and-aft loads resulting from the car skidding along the ground on the roll structure.
D. The two vertical members forming the sides of the hoop shall not be less than fifteen inches apart (inside dimension). It is desirable that the roll bar extend the full width of the cockpit to provide maximum bearing area in all soil conditions during rollovers. The roll bar vertical members on formula cars and other single seat cars with a center driver position must be not less than fifteen inches apart, inside dimension, at their attachment points to the uppermost main chassis member.
E. An inspection hole of at least 3/16 inch diameter must be drilled in a non-critical area of a roll bar member to facilitate verification of wall thickness. This should be at least three inches from any weld or bend.
F. It is recommended that steel gusset plates be used at all welds. Gussets should be at least two inches long on each leg and 3/16 inches thick.
G. It is recommended that roll bars be coated only with a light coat of paint. If, however, a roll bar should be chrome-plated, it is recommended that the structure be normalized.
H. Post or tripod types of roll bars are not acceptable

Years ago, I was instructing at an all Corvette event, went out in a Vert with a novice. He lost it in a faster corner, we spun backwards at 80mph towards a 6 foot drop off.
For me, no rollbar, no instructor.

0RAAMaudio

When I bought our C6 Vert last summer I figured roll bars were available, I guess I should of checked or I may of not bought it but my new wife and I love it so keeping it.

I have been advised that it is not a viable option to build a roll bar that is legal and safe I have spent a great deal of time on a design that I believe is, it is just not easy to do right. I like a challenge and have found a way to build one that is correctly done(though I have a huge desire to make it a double hoop which is slowing the process greatly) I am 5'8" and can get the proper clearance to put up the top and have it over my helmet by at least 2", I have shorter legs, longer torso, leaning the seat back, etc, works for me just fine. I have a race seat I can drop in for another 2" or more clearance as well.

The double hoop is for appearance, sure would look better on the street on our cars. I have to go over the rules again because as posted here it is not as I have seen elsewhere, single versus more than one seat cars. It has been done and approved for a different car, basically two single hoop bars(used in racing all the time as a one hoop, one side bar) tied together properly to support each other.

The only thing it gives up is on soft ground, 10" of the middle section but has 4 uprights compared to 2, smaller triangulation, more bracing, etc...it would be very very strong.

To brace it properly I will have to notch the rear deck a bit but nothing dramatic but it would be done correctly and would include sleaves inside the frame rails to keep the rails from crushing.

A single hoop, pretty easy, double, style, safety, etc, not really an issue, rules, meant to be pushed when you have to but I would not every use the double hoop design unless I was absolutely sure it would be safe.

CERTAINLY not less safe than the coupes factory bar, that is not a roll bar in reality compared to what I intend to so and they are certainly used all over the place on the track

Most anything can be done with some ingenuity and effort.

BUT, I have so much to do and another race car as well as building a Studevette that will be fully caged, etc......never enough time

Rick