varkwso

What happened to the the Vette-Viper Challenge in NASA? Has the SCCA STO class filled the hole?

Racer-38

STO is SCCA
Vette-viper has been replaced with ST1 & 2

AU N EGL

Did that not turn into Super Touring I and II plus Super Unlimited ?

Falcon

Yea, from what I understood, the Vette/Viper series wasn't active, so in 2007 the ST1-2 & SU classes were implemented to fill that void and, hopefully, higher participation. It seems to have worked very well.

Jaymz

ST1/2 rules are almost identical to the old VVC rules except there were three classes. VVC1, VVC2 and VVCx.

I used to run in that class when it was around as my old racecar was a cheater T1 car and I didn't want to start racing in a cheater car.

VVC1 power to weight was 8.7. Had the same basic class rules. The problem is that hardly noone ever came to race. ST seemed to cure that problem and I am glad to see it. (Even though it still is mostly Corvettes and Vipers)

varkwso

ST1, ST2 and SU I know very well - it makes sense it migrated to a broader base.

A cheater car? I did not know such a thing could exist.

Jaymz

Strange thing is... Both of the T1 cars I have bought have had the rulebook exploited..

The first car had the passenger seat in it but there was no metal in the seat at all..

wallyman424

not as bad as some of the "T1" cars I've seen sold.

One had an aftermarket clutch, 42lb injectors, was using DA shocks before it was legal... and the list goes on.

Jaymz

the first car also had milled heads a few other lightened pieces,,

When I bought the blue car it had gutted cats. (Back when cats were required)

Thats why I like the NASA rules.. No worry about what you have done to the car.

varkwso

Every used race car I have owned, or worked on, had some "surprises" in it. Ones with multiple owners have even more interesting "finds".

The NASA SU/TTR, ST2/TTS, ST1/TTU rules are very nice for setup, and enforcement, in most cases. The rest of the PT/TT can be interesting on the cars having passed through multiple hands.

mgg

All sanctioning bodies should outlaw variable boost cars. To rely on the driver not to increase boost in the spirit of fairness is a joke. Many know of what I am referring to. Anytime boost can be adjusted people will find a way in which to diguise it. Just my two cents.

Jaymz

I think the turbo cars should have their own class. It's so easy to adjust the boost to make more power. The issue with ST1/2 is that once someone starts exploiting that rule then all of the others will have to follow to be competitive and that will kill this class which it' only 3th year. It's growing at a good pace and doesn't need any class killers in it.

drivinhard

Isn't that SOP for any race class/series

I agree on the turbo cars having their own class in TT/PT/ST, etc. I'm amazed how slow my 367 RWHP C5Z pulls on heavier, brick aero "285 whp" boosted 4 bangers at times.

I gave a TT checkride for a guy that was actually showing me his ECU map toggle switches in his boosted AWD WRX. No temptation there right

JVetthead

I run TTU on the pointy end and had a TTB evo or watever out pulling me down the straits last year.... Called him out on it and got the "well I am a pro driver and it is my corner exit speed"
Have not seen him since.

varkwso

Policing boosted cars is tough but policing any race car can be tough. Unlike NA cars (unless it is Sperkins) boosted cars can really step it up with multiple tunes - NA cars can step it up a little also (Sperkins can explain how he can swap cams mid-session, as needed, to push Jason and Drivinhard). NASA now asks if there are multiple ECU maps in the car and switching method - does not prevent lying - but helps.

A "stock" boosted car running race gas gets my attention and I have seen it several times (race gas really should be available as a cologne). With data collection the "exit speed" issue can be addressed quickly. I do believe apex to exit the AWD cars have an advantage to a 295/275 limited C5/6 since four 245s can trump two 295s of equal grip.

Equalizing multiple makes and models in any series has to be tough.

RogueVette

Reminds me of the Patrick Lindsey ST2/TTS Audi S4 from 07 Nationals. Even the race director was vigorously defending him, untill data showed nearly the same velocity as Popp in his ST1 Vette. As well as a few EVO and STi's I've run across at VIR. I agree Turbo cars should have their own class.

Falcon

Uh Oh! I wasn't going to bring that up! That car was questionable in the '06 National Time Trials, and was even more evident in '07.

We never did hear how much horsepower that thing was making. The silence to that question was quite telling.

L98Terror

Well I'm not sure that is the answer otherwise you will have some cheating more than others, either you find a way to police them or make them all run SU. It';s sad that some feel they need to cheat, it's one thing to be a few HP off at the dyno and another to flat out cheat.

The problem is the "officials" have decided way ahead of time on who they think are stretching the rules and who aren't. Let's take the 2010 nationals for instance, there was a incident where the "officials" wanted to look at my video, as we were gettin to the point they wanted to see they were shown a car in my class (ST2) that entered the straight right in front of me with a ST1 car between us, the ST1 car pulled out to pass on a 3/4 mile front straight and had to pull back behind the ST2 car because he couldn't make the pass, both cars were pulling away from me. In a earlier qualifying race that same car entered the front straight right behind me pulled out passed me and pulled back in front of me before corner one.

I was asked if I thought he was cheating, my response was "that is not my job that is yours, I'm just showing you what I saw" I went on to say if you are going to dyno him or anyone else please don't wait till the championship race it's not fair to wait, if someone is going to be DQed do it so they can still race for the Championship everyone has traveled great distances to be here.

I was told that car is fine they dynoed earlier in the week ( on thier own dime, with no NASA official there)

That being said I thought my car must be down on power so I booked some Dyno time myself, I went and grabbed a tech "official" to take me to the dyno because my car was sealed and if I was down on power I wanted to unseal it make changes and then reseal it. The "official" was with me the entire time the car dynoed fine and I was very close to the limit. Less than an hour later I went and ran a TT session as soon as I came off the track I was pulled to be dynoed. The "official" that went with me Stated I was just dynoed and that he saw the results and I was legal, it didn't matter I was hauled off to the dyno anyways and actually dynoed 12 HP less the 2 hours earlier.

That was not the only time I was pulled to dyno.

I was dynoed in 2007, 2008 and three times in 2009 & not once was I even close to being over. Yet the guy who pull the fastest TTS (up to that point) lap out of no where got waved on through.

The point is if people want to cheat they will find a way, they won't be caught all the time but we as competitors need to self police and not accept the practice in NASA.

L98Terror

and you see where that got him, a pro ride

varkwso

This really does seem to be most effective - but you need to get an official to buy in at some point. It is difficult when there are many, many cars in the class - but does not relieve the responsibility of the officials.

But everyone knows the guys from the Midwest need to be dynoed.