Track day with pending rain/cold, Which tires???
12-02-2011, 09:28 AM
#1
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Track day with pending rain/cold, Which tires???
Well i have a track day at MSR cresson coming up tomorrow and Saturday. It is off and on rain today with rain in the forecast for the whole weekend. Sunday is only supposed to be up to 41 for a high so its never going to get warm on Sunday. Saturday is a high in the 60s.
Typically i have Toyo R888s on stock rims that i switch to for the track but i don't know if those should be driven in the rain or the cold or if i should just take my street tires out there.
Also i have ceramic brake pads in there right now for daily driving, should i switch to my cobalt race pads.
I really need some help here guys.
I know rain is a good teacher, but am just wondering
FYI Car is 6.6L LS2 500rwhp. Z51 package but nothing really else for suspension, just the Toyo R888s for traction. -engine broke first so that got upgraded before the other stuff.
Typically i have Toyo R888s on stock rims that i switch to for the track but i don't know if those should be driven in the rain or the cold or if i should just take my street tires out there.
Also i have ceramic brake pads in there right now for daily driving, should i switch to my cobalt race pads.
I really need some help here guys.
I know rain is a good teacher, but am just wondering
FYI Car is 6.6L LS2 500rwhp. Z51 package but nothing really else for suspension, just the Toyo R888s for traction. -engine broke first so that got upgraded before the other stuff.
12-02-2011, 10:15 AM
#3
I run Hoosiers if there are no puddles (light rain). But I had a very bad experience on Hoosiers on a 41 degree day. The Hoosiers were like driving on ice at that temp. It was a $20,000 lesson in tire choice. If it's wet and cold, I'd suggest street tires.
12-02-2011, 10:57 AM
#5
Melting Slicks
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My rule of thumb is below 50 degrees...stay home.
Add rain and I'd add stay home and watch tv.
There are 100 things that can happen in the cold and rain when you're driving a Z06...and 99 of them are bad.
Yes you can learn in the rain, but unless you're going for a championship in the next few months you won't learn anything important...except maybe the limits of your insurance policy. IMHO
Add rain and I'd add stay home and watch tv.
There are 100 things that can happen in the cold and rain when you're driving a Z06...and 99 of them are bad.
Yes you can learn in the rain, but unless you're going for a championship in the next few months you won't learn anything important...except maybe the limits of your insurance policy. IMHO
Last edited by TedDBere; 12-02-2011 at 01:22 PM.
12-02-2011, 11:57 AM
#6
Melting Slicks
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1. Hoosier Wets.
2. Go slow with street tires.
3. Stay home.
Honestly, without proper tires, these cars are not fun in cold, wet conditions. Both times my car has been damaged have been in the rain. For me, it's just not worth it UNLESS I have a GREAT set of tires designed for the wet like Hoosiers or Pirelli's.
As Dirty Harry said: "A man's got to know his limitations."
2. Go slow with street tires.
3. Stay home.
Honestly, without proper tires, these cars are not fun in cold, wet conditions. Both times my car has been damaged have been in the rain. For me, it's just not worth it UNLESS I have a GREAT set of tires designed for the wet like Hoosiers or Pirelli's.
As Dirty Harry said: "A man's got to know his limitations."
12-02-2011, 01:14 PM
#7
Race Director
Autox is great fun in the rain, track, not so much IMO.
Make a list what is the upside, what is the down side.
For you question, everything needs to be softened in the wet.
Use the street tires unless you have a known designed for wet high performance tire.
Think about how much fun it was driving on a freeway in traffic and a downpour. You are either on the edge of a really bad skid, or you back off so slow there is no point doing it.
Driving truly fast in the wet is a gift, or a skill that takes a REALLY long time to develop.
Make a list what is the upside, what is the down side.
For you question, everything needs to be softened in the wet.
Use the street tires unless you have a known designed for wet high performance tire.
Think about how much fun it was driving on a freeway in traffic and a downpour. You are either on the edge of a really bad skid, or you back off so slow there is no point doing it.
Driving truly fast in the wet is a gift, or a skill that takes a REALLY long time to develop.
12-02-2011, 01:33 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
+1 on the Hoosier Wets or staying off the track.
Even street tires will lose significant amounts of grip below 50F. I could barely make it around Mosport in 41F wet weather with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. Could never get heat into the tires either.
Parked it after collecting points for the series time trial championship. Sat in the pits wishing it was drier or warmer, but at least not having to fix broken plastic and aluminum. Unfortunately, other people stayed out and learned the hard way like I did the year before.
Even street tires will lose significant amounts of grip below 50F. I could barely make it around Mosport in 41F wet weather with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. Could never get heat into the tires either.
Parked it after collecting points for the series time trial championship. Sat in the pits wishing it was drier or warmer, but at least not having to fix broken plastic and aluminum. Unfortunately, other people stayed out and learned the hard way like I did the year before.
12-02-2011, 01:36 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
Street tires. I ran R888s (full depth) at MidOhio in September on a chilly day. The day started out dry but as soon as the rain started the throttle turned into a "rotate" pedal. Any amount of throttle input spun the rear wheels and sent the car sideways. After a trip through the kitty litter outside of the keyhole I put the street tires on and ran a couple more sessions... very slowly.
12-02-2011, 01:51 PM
#10
Racer
I also have a track day this weekend. It should be cold and dry. I'm going with the mindset of going slow and taking it easy. Just a day to test out the new motor I just built. The back straight at Pacific Raceway gets real slippery. No track records being broke tomorrow and I'm not trying to break the car.
12-02-2011, 02:38 PM
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I have the Hawk Ceramic pads on my car right now for daily driving, should i switch to the cobalt race pads that i have for my race weekends or what should i do. I really need a middle of the road pad but i don't have those any more.
12-02-2011, 03:21 PM
#12
Racer
I have been out a few times on street tires (Yok Advan Sports) at Pacific Raceways (near Seattle) in very wet conditions. The track was like ice in my C5Z. I find that I just drive the entire track in 4th with all of the nannies on and its still white knuckle. The last rain day I brought my Audi RS4 (daily driver) on bald Conti Sportcontact3's and I was still struggling a bit with the conditions.
If there is a chance for wet, take the streets. If there is standing water either stay off the track or consider being extremely conservative.
If there is a chance for wet, take the streets. If there is standing water either stay off the track or consider being extremely conservative.
12-02-2011, 03:32 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
Saturday will be warm enough but the track will probably be wet all day long; even if it stops raining relative humidity is going to be close to 100% until the cold front comes through Sunday.
If I was running, which I'm not (DEs are supposed to be fun, DEs in the rain are just tedious) I'd stick with your street setup, both tires and pads. You're not going to get enough heat into the pads to worry about (well, at least I don't), and cold track pads is just more pucker factor in a puckish day anyway.
HTH, and have a good one,
Mike
If I was running, which I'm not (DEs are supposed to be fun, DEs in the rain are just tedious) I'd stick with your street setup, both tires and pads. You're not going to get enough heat into the pads to worry about (well, at least I don't), and cold track pads is just more pucker factor in a puckish day anyway.
HTH, and have a good one,
Mike
12-02-2011, 03:35 PM
#14
Le Mans Master
1. Hoosier Wets.
2. Go slow with street tires.
3. Stay home.
Honestly, without proper tires, these cars are not fun in cold, wet conditions. Both times my car has been damaged have been in the rain. For me, it's just not worth it UNLESS I have a GREAT set of tires designed for the wet like Hoosiers or Pirelli's.
As Dirty Harry said: "A man's got to know his limitations."
2. Go slow with street tires.
3. Stay home.
Honestly, without proper tires, these cars are not fun in cold, wet conditions. Both times my car has been damaged have been in the rain. For me, it's just not worth it UNLESS I have a GREAT set of tires designed for the wet like Hoosiers or Pirelli's.
As Dirty Harry said: "A man's got to know his limitations."
I concur! Plus, (I live in Granbury) if the track is the lower (1.3 mile) track, STAY HOME! There is no possibility of "safe runoff" in the rain. The upper (1.7 mile) track is drivable in the wet, but WHY, since track driving is supposed to be for FUN?
12-02-2011, 03:52 PM
#15
As my friend Joe Aquilante of Phoenix Performance likes to say, "Nothing good ever happens in the rain". If it's a race and there are points or money at stake, those are reasons to run in the rain. For an HPDE, it's all downside and not an enjoyable experience. I skip HPDE's when it rains. I know you've probably paid your entry fee, but in comparison to a crash, is it really worth it to run? Going slow and safe is boring and as you ramp up the speed the risk increases exponentially.
That's my opinion, anyway...
That's my opinion, anyway...
Last edited by SLandstra_Z06; 12-02-2011 at 03:55 PM.
12-03-2011, 12:11 PM
#16
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St: Jude Donor '10
Had an event this past April...40s and rain all day long. Nasty, miserable day. 
Saw the forecast and decided to stay with street tires...had F1 GS-D3s on the car. So glad I ran with those...the tread pattern does a great job diverting water. We had lots of ponding on the track...I had no troubles. Maybe 1 shimmy but the rest of the day I had great traction. The guys teching the cars commended my rain tire choice 
unfortunately we had a lot of other folks who didn't plan ahead and weren't so lucky. Offs left and right, bouncing off tire walls, debris everywhere, tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage.
So the moral of the story is, run good rain tires or stay home. Would I do it again? Sure, but I've already determined that I'm not right in the head.
Saw the forecast and decided to stay with street tires...had F1 GS-D3s on the car. So glad I ran with those...the tread pattern does a great job diverting water. We had lots of ponding on the track...I had no troubles. Maybe 1 shimmy but the rest of the day I had great traction. The guys teching the cars commended my rain tire choice unfortunately we had a lot of other folks who didn't plan ahead and weren't so lucky. Offs left and right, bouncing off tire walls, debris everywhere, tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage.So the moral of the story is, run good rain tires or stay home. Would I do it again? Sure, but I've already determined that I'm not right in the head.
12-03-2011, 01:15 PM
#17
i disagree on the roadcourse not being fun in the rain, or cancelling the day because it gets cold.
as long as you have a set of tires that deals with puddles OK, driving wet track is great fun. there will not be any lap records beat, but it's a great opportunity to practice handling the limits of traction and alternate lines without going 10/10 dry track speeds. it's kind of like having a coach in the car with a button to spray oil onto your tires every time you make a small mistake!
if you have safety concerns, slow down to 5/10th and watch your mirrors to wave by cars that don't - i guarantee you will still learn something that will make you faster on the dry track, or maybe even catch up to people who already figured out how to work the wet track.
as far as the cold weather goes, what matters the most is your tire temp - as long as you can bring them up to temps where they work, you only need to survive the first few laps - don't give up too early, at least give it a session to get to good tire temps.
i dislike how hoosiers behave on wet pavement, but I would not cancel the day or put street tires on instead, as long as I am not dealing with standing water, then you need something that can channel at least some of it away, especially with our fat front tires (0 front traction is bad when you are trying to get into a high speed turn or to correct!!!)
as long as you have a set of tires that deals with puddles OK, driving wet track is great fun. there will not be any lap records beat, but it's a great opportunity to practice handling the limits of traction and alternate lines without going 10/10 dry track speeds. it's kind of like having a coach in the car with a button to spray oil onto your tires every time you make a small mistake!
if you have safety concerns, slow down to 5/10th and watch your mirrors to wave by cars that don't - i guarantee you will still learn something that will make you faster on the dry track, or maybe even catch up to people who already figured out how to work the wet track.
as far as the cold weather goes, what matters the most is your tire temp - as long as you can bring them up to temps where they work, you only need to survive the first few laps - don't give up too early, at least give it a session to get to good tire temps.
i dislike how hoosiers behave on wet pavement, but I would not cancel the day or put street tires on instead, as long as I am not dealing with standing water, then you need something that can channel at least some of it away, especially with our fat front tires (0 front traction is bad when you are trying to get into a high speed turn or to correct!!!)
Last edited by longdaddy; 12-03-2011 at 01:18 PM.
12-03-2011, 01:22 PM
#18
I also have a track day this weekend. It should be cold and dry. I'm going with the mindset of going slow and taking it easy. Just a day to test out the new motor I just built. The back straight at Pacific Raceway gets real slippery. No track records being broke tomorrow and I'm not trying to break the car.
was thinking of coming today too but want to have alignment checked first on the new car, that will not happen until next week.i love driving pacific when it rains (actually had a day 2 or 3 years ago with snow during one of the sessions - talk about white knuckles), it empties out the track real quick so I can have the whole thing pretty much to myself!
12-03-2011, 03:34 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
Here how my last heavy rain cold day went. Left the street tires on was having a blast pushing it hard on a empty trackit took hours to clean even with the mother of all pressure washers, still made the last two sessions of the day
it took hours to clean even with the mother of all pressure washers, still made the last two sessions of the day
12-03-2011, 04:16 PM
#20
Former Vendor
1. Hoosier Wets.
2. Go slow with street tires.
3. Stay home.
Honestly, without proper tires, these cars are not fun in cold, wet conditions. Both times my car has been damaged have been in the rain. For me, it's just not worth it UNLESS I have a GREAT set of tires designed for the wet like Hoosiers or Pirelli's.
As Dirty Harry said: "A man's got to know his limitations."
2. Go slow with street tires.
3. Stay home.
Honestly, without proper tires, these cars are not fun in cold, wet conditions. Both times my car has been damaged have been in the rain. For me, it's just not worth it UNLESS I have a GREAT set of tires designed for the wet like Hoosiers or Pirelli's.
As Dirty Harry said: "A man's got to know his limitations."
They always say though, a wet track will show the best drivers because it shows how to handle a car in the worst conditions....just be aware of the risks involved in taking it out, especially with other cars on track.